Do most Alliance and Horde players like Saurfang?

[Plehnard]

This is the guy that organized the War Of Thorns, helped kill thousands of humans during the second war, thousands of Night Elves...There's nothing to like.

This sums it up.
Just because he had his regrets later doesn't wash him clean for all the atrocities he willingly committed before. He was a bloodthirsty warmonger most of his life and deserves nothing but hate.

[geco]

What do you mean, I don't really understand.

This book quote is a good example of what I'm saying, he engineers the siege like a general/soldier does, that doesn't make him responsible for sylvanas turning it into genocide. And ultimately he stands up to her, where is the criticism. No character is perfect.

The problem is not Varock itself.
It is that Blizzard centers the story on him and of such renown.

In addition to the inconsistency of the revelion. That makes them see them as "cowards who are afraid of the alliance" rather than "we fight for honor."

It's like we now have a whole expansion on how Pious and kind Maiev is. And everything tells us that she is very pious and kind.
But it's still Maiev. 80% revenge 20% passive aggressive.

[mickybrighteyes]

[IMG cut]

Well here's in Shadows Rising during the meeting with the Horde leaders where they address Saurfang's role. While the night elves don't explicitly say the words "we are mad at Anduin for his actions in BFA." They ignore all his calls, and the meeting with the Horde goes less than swimmingly.

Addressed through implications and attitudes towards groups is still addressed, even if we're working with some level of headcanon.

I think the last line in the image sums up how they want to press on. forget everything but what helps get Sylvanas. Lets just ignore how in a story where betrayal to a supposed good was more important than actual alliances that existed. Totally gloss over how some deaths clearly are less important than others. Forget everything and focus on Sylvanas,

[geco]

I still don't understand what your ultimate point is though. He isn't a coward by literal definition and he stands up for honor. Honor isn't mindlessly following orders, honor is standing by your beliefs and ultimately what is right, and that's what he ultimately does and dies for.

Mass genocide is okay.
It's wrong to revive Jaina's brother.

Let's wait until we're losing the war to reveal ourselves for Honor? Let's fight only when we are sure that we will win?

BFA was a. We stay with Sylvanas, until we start to lose the war.

[mickybrighteyes]

I still don't understand what your ultimate point is though. He isn't a coward by literal definition and he stands up for honor. Honor isn't mindlessly following orders, honor is standing by your beliefs and ultimately what is right, and that's what he ultimately does and dies for.

but he follows honor by betraying his nation on a whim and rallies an army against his brethren for the sake of this honor (that is not defined).

Outside perspective when we're arguing that one side is clearly bad and the other is good is fine and dandy but the in game evidence is a bit lacking because of how quickly they had the "bad side" fall apart and turn on each other. It makes for the overall story getting weaker because the "honorable" side taking arms against the tyranical dictator used the exact same plan we (the audience) called foul when the bad leader tried it. (i.e. turning a VIP and aiming them at teh enemy nation to cause damage).

[Zuben]

I'm Horde and I used to like Saurfang, heavily disagreed with him in BFA.

[TheFirstOnes]

Dude seems like a pretty neat Trinket rn. So yeah, I like him.

Also an ilvl upgrade.

[geco]

Like I said, I already explained this with real life examples that prove this is just a fact of morality. People don't always step up straight away especially when if stepping up would gain them nothing, not stop what they're standing up against and only serve to essentially commit suicide.

The point here is that Saurfang knows genocide is not okay, he doesn't agree with Sylvanas.

This is demonstrably false too.



Again, there are thousands of examples of real life generals, soldiers, officers who didn't act out initially but ultimately took action, it doesn't make them cowards.

You keep ignoring my point or you don't get it. He cannot explain it more clearly.

[Diaphin]

I dont understand how people cant like a character that eventually has the courage to stand up against his own for what he knows is right. Same goes for Baine, great characters, the best horde characters are the ones that show their streak of honor and morality, not the ones who are maniacs and looking for blood at every corner.

Because he does so after being the architect of yet another genocidal war.

[loras]

Varok Saurfang was one of the most popular characters of the Horde for years, and was widely regarded and respected as a war hero, especially after Wrath of the Lich King.

However, I've noticed that Saurfang seemed to have had a very mixed reaction during the last expansion, the Fourth War, because of his controversial choices; Alliance players thought he was just an enabler and an accessory to Teldrassil and possibly found him not as easy to relate to, while Horde players seem to view him as as traitor after abandoning them at Lordaeron (some players actually wanted to kill Saurfang during the scenario), and because Sylvanas seemed more popular than he was. I understand most Alliance and Horde NPCs seem to revere him now, because he apparently died a noble and honorable death.

What do most players nowadays regard Saurfang, as a hero or a traitor? Do they generally view him positively or negatively? Do you think he was an interesting and compelling character?

He's both hero AND traitor to me, only stupid dogs believe traitors cannot be heroes.

He did some wrong, he did some right, he was the personification of their efforts to create a morally grey character - and they succeeded.

So in person i appreciate him very much, from my Alliance point of view he is a reminder that orcs (and the Horde)can, at the very least, be redeemed even if they often do wrong.
From a Horde point of view he is either a traitor that brought discredit to the Horde's and Sylvanas' ways, or a hero that stood for what he believed in - and reminding us in the process that obedience is what has led the Horde down dark, self-destructive paths before.

[mickybrighteyes]

I dont understand how people cant like a character that eventually has the courage to stand up against his own for what he knows is right. Same goes for Baine, great characters, the best horde characters are the ones that show their streak of honor and morality, not the ones who are maniacs and looking for blood at every corner.

Saurfang's arc set up and performed much of the bloodshed we lay the blame on Sylvanas for and only stands against her because he fucked up and decided he didn't have it in him to finish the fight he planned and acted out.

Baine is an entirely different beast because he is technically the first one to KILL any rank and file members of the horde in the rebellion. In a huge story arc where we're supposed to believe Sylvanas' forces are the baddies.... it's not Sylvanas' forces sneaking into secure facilities and killing people in the bunks... oh and then blaming outside forces to conceal said 'bravery' and 'honor'. I know it's easy to brush aside this all and say "it was Sylvanas loyalists getting killed they picked their side!" but the sides weren't drawn until AFTER Baine decided to step up as judge and jury then start executing sailors off the field of battle.

[Dellis0991]

REALY almost 50/50 on the horde??

Realy horde??

The ones who like him should realy get a grip my god what pethatic outcome. So appearntly almost 50% liked hes boring/whiny/ honor bullshit. I mean hes story was 100% boring in so many ways.

Interesting characters in bfa were wasted such as Azshara or Rastakahn, but sadfang got like 3/4? Cinematics.

Idk its even a weird outcome tbh... idk even if you tell me your oldschool then I would still find that weird.

To be honest the writers fucked him up in BFA.

[geco]

So in person i appreciate him very much, from my Alliance point of view he is a reminder that orcs (and the Horde)can, at the very least, be redeemed even if they often do wrong.

I think the Kaldorei would not agree that he was "redeemed".
Nor is he close to making amends for his mistakes.

[ONCHEhap]

He was great until BfA

[Gorsameth]

Good for Voljin.

Different characters display different levels of bravery/different breaking points. Some are complicit only to a point. Like you can use any number of IRL analogies, nazi's that were complicit until a point when they had enough of it and became 'traitors'

I find them interesting characters.

- - - Updated - - -



I mean as I replied to another poster here, I think people act like its black and white, you either stand up or you don't, its not like that, people react at different times/different environments, just because someone doesn't stand up from minute 1 doesn't mean that when they do stand up, that they didn't show courage etc.

Yes but Saurfang already went through that struggle with Garrosh.
Its the Wotlk Borean Tundra

High Overlord Saurfang says: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes.

And in SoO as Horde you find Saurfang in the passage to the insects having gone to put those words into action.

There is no question if Saurfang would rise up against a Warchief that aims to take the Horde back to the old days of genocide. He already gave us the answer and put those words into action before.

[Aresk]

Baine is an entirely different beast because he is technically the first one to KILL any rank and file members of the horde in the rebellion. In a huge story arc where we're supposed to believe Sylvanas' forces are the baddies.... it's not Sylvanas' forces sneaking into secure facilities and killing people in the bunks... oh and then blaming outside forces to conceal said 'bravery' and 'honor'. I know it's easy to brush aside this all and say "it was Sylvanas loyalists getting killed they picked their side!" but the sides weren't drawn until AFTER Baine decided to step up as judge and jury then start executing sailors off the field of battle.

You're talking about patch 8.1.5 content, ignoring that in 8.1.0, Sylvanas attempts to assassinate Saurfang, and Saurfang and Zekhan kill Lyana. While Baine did kill dark rangers and officers on the ship (he let the sailors go, which seems very...counter-intuitive for a secret mission), he wasn't the first one to kill members of the Horde. Sides were drawn before Baine's mission, with Sylvanas (sometimes through Nathanos) happy to let her champion murder Horde loyalists to maintain a ruse (even when maintaining that ruse allows Baine, Saurfang, Jaina, Thrall, and Shaw to escape the Underhold).

[Stacko]

I thought he was very fucking cool pre-BFA, especially since he is related to Broxigar, one of my favorite lore characters. I don't think BFA ruined him like most people believe so, as I'm more of a fan of the "Striving for peace" Horde, but I did feel like his story dragged on much too long & the suicidal arc at the start was stupid imo.

Towards the end of BFA, I really enjoyed his story. His fight vs Sylvanas was amazing. It was very misplaced though, felt like all of that shit should have been before or after we fought N'zoth. Going from N'zoth being free immediately into another Siege of Orgrimmar (story-wise) was a bizarre choice. Would've made more sense if all of that was pre-patch stuff. Considering in the N'zoth fight, N'zoth shows us "his betrayal, AND ours" with the Sylvanas & Azshara dialogue, it almost feels like that should've been the last straw that made us all go against Sylvanas. Anyways, this is barely about Saurfang at this point. Thanks for reading.

[Stardrift]

His character arc was all over the place. Made sense for him to want an honourable death, but he committed atrocities and showed no hesitation in doing them until he had a sword against his throat lmao

Just another dindu nuffin story

[Dazmalak]

He got turned into a bitch and he died like one. Not surprising given how politics and modern social commentary is so pervasive and obvious in video games these days.

[Hellobolis]

varok was cool cause he came out of a time where blizzard just let crazy stuff be in the game.

he became known because of his mega cleave, got some cult following and eventually blizz picked up on it.

if something like that happened today it would be hotfixed and forgotten.