9.1 seems to be addressing the casual gearing concerns

[rhorle]

Games should be fun for the average player. Yeah, that’s real radical game design. People playing RPGs like progression and sense of completion. Wow, more whacky crazy ideas.

The fact you are on these forums discussing it already shows you are above the average player. There is progression in WoW currently even if it means you can't get the best possible gear. Weird how you ignore that right? It is almost like you don't care about truth and facts or what players really want. And instead are focused in your narrow narrative of how the game should be designed otherwise it is crap.

[Kaver]

And why does it happen so quickly? To appease hardcore players who would cry about the grind to reach the content they want to play.

Not at all because the hardcore players and the casual players are not doing the same content for gearing anyway. The problem is that a casual player can get ilvl 200 just by finishing the covenant campaign and doing a little bit of RBGs on the side. The progress to ilvl 200 is way to fast by doing casual content. It has nothing to do with hardcore players because they will just jump straight into +15 keys anyway.

[Tadkins]

The game ends or it changes. You keep trying to make that a bad thing but it is the way things work. It is more addiction to keep playing something that you hate so much and constantly call bad game design. It can't be that bad if you actually still play it right?

It's not inconceivable that someone can still care about the game and lament over its direction even while not paying for it. We who care about the game want to see it changed. But as it stands SL is losing subs by the truckload while games like FFXIV who respect its player base are growing. That is a real issue.

[rhorle]

That’s not an answer to anything. It’s an admission that you don’t have an argument for why the current design is good. And it’s a sure fire way to keep the game declining.

Of course it is an answer. If people don't like a product stop using that product. This is entertainment and a hobby. You are not required to play it and the game will decline just fine if you keep playing. Because that is your argument right? That the game has been declining. Come to terms with the addiction and stop playing if you don't enjoy it. The developers will keep doing what they think is best and players should be doing what they think is best.

[ohwell]

There is no such thing as a "casual gearing concern."
If you want better gear, you do non-casual content.
I am of course glad they are looking to allow for more gearing options, but expecting good gear when playing "casually" is just being selfish.

And by "casually" they mean playing 10 hours a day doing world quests and dinking about Oribos and simply objecting to the directed content of the game.

[Kaver]

It’s an admission that you don’t have an argument for why the current design is good.

The current design is not good but giving casual players mythic raiding gear is not the answer. And hardcore players are not the problem. Blizzard simply need to make the progression bath for casuals longer.

[Echocho]

Then don't sub to the game. If you don't find it fun tell Blizzard you don't find it fun and stop paying for it.

A lot of casuals did exactly that. Wow lost more than half of their players after shadowlands launched. Why do you think casual gearing is returning in 9.1?

[NineSpine]

Not at all because the hardcore players and the casual players are not doing the same content for gearing anyway. The problem is that a casual player can get ilvl 200 just by finishing the covenant campaign and doing a little bit of RBGs on the side. The progress to ilvl 200 is way to fast by doing casual content. It has nothing to do with hardcore players because they will just jump straight into +15 keys anyway.

No sense continuing to discuss anything with someone that thinks you skip to +15 without prior endgame gearing.

[Tadkins]

That is a flawed comparison because one is versus a computer and the other is versus other players. It is still a skill gap that comes into play in random battle grounds. One you've stated yourself that you have. You are just using gear as a scape goat in an expansion that you haven't even played to know how it actually plays out. Weird right?

Skill doesn't matter when such gear disparity exists. Make it a skill based game and let things be on an even footing. What are you afraid of?

[ohwell]

Of course it is an answer. If people don't like a product stop using that product. This is entertainment and a hobby. You are not required to play it and the game will decline just fine if you keep playing. Because that is your argument right? That the game has been declining. Come to terms with the addiction and stop playing if you don't enjoy it. The developers will keep doing what they think is best and players should be doing what they think is best.

That's because the devs are finding they get more actual income from the top end via events, publicity via Twitch, and other similar sources over the subs of the people demanding for gear from doing world content. Sure there are more subs that don't raid than there are that do, but subs aren't the sole source anymore and aren't the prime source.

[Kaver]

No sense continuing to discuss anything with someone that thinks you skip to +15 without prior endgame gearing.

It depends what you mean by "hardcore players" but most players I know can jump straight into +15s because they play with in-game friends or guildmates. Of course I'm not talking about pugging.

[rhorle]

It's not inconceivable that someone can still care about the game and lament over its direction even while not paying for it. We who care about the game want to see it changed. But as it stands SL is losing subs by the truckload while games like FFXIV who respect its player base are growing. That is a real issue.

So go play Final Fantasy. Move on. It isn't inconceivable that someone cares about the game when they no longer play it. But you are spending hours a day ranting about things. That isn't a healthy expression of dislike. You don't care about the game anymore because that is why you stopped playing. You desperately want to still care which is why the game needs to cater to your very specific needs.

You even stated your pinnacle was Heroic raiding and that you don't want the best gear in the game to progress as a casual. The current game gives you exactly that by allowing you to casually get the tier below your pinnacle. Yet it is still a problem. You keep latching on to PvP gear gaps while not acknowledging the very real skill gap that exists. That skill is more important then the gear gap.

[ohwell]

A lot of casuals did exactly that. Wow lost more than half of their players after shadowlands launched. Why do you think casual gearing is returning in 9.1?

Except it isn't lol. They don't care about your money because they're getting more elsewhere.

[NineSpine]

The current design is not good but giving casual players mythic raiding gear is not the answer. And hardcore players are not the problem. Blizzard simply need to make the progression bath for casuals longer.

That’s only going to solve the problem partially. Ilvl inflation is going to be a problem in pvp regardless of your solution. The only real solution is to flatten this absurd curve and allow the average player to get much much closer to bis, which is why virtually every other major MMO does.

[rhorle]

Skill doesn't matter when such gear disparity exists. Make it a skill based game and let things be on an even footing. What are you afraid of?

Skill always matters. If you had even gear you would still be complaining that you get demolished in random battlegrounds in your 1v1 duels, mid map fights, solo node defense etc. I am not afraid of anything. The better question is why are you afraid of admitting that you can't get everything in the game with out doing everything in the game?

[Glorious Leader]

The current design is not good but giving casual players mythic raiding gear is not the answer. And hardcore players are not the problem. Blizzard simply need to make the progression bath for casuals longer.

Its 100% the fault of the hardcore player group that bitched about mandatory content. Blizzard is incredible sensitive to this complaint and its really quite stupid for a number of reasons.

[NineSpine]

So go play Final Fantasy. Move on. It isn't inconceivable that someone cares about the game when they no longer play it. But you are spending hours a day ranting about things. That isn't a healthy expression of dislike. You don't care about the game anymore because that is why you stopped playing. You desperately want to still care which is why the game needs to cater to your very specific needs.

You even stated your pinnacle was Heroic raiding and that you don't want the best gear in the game to progress as a casual. The current game gives you exactly that by allowing you to casually get the tier below your pinnacle. Yet it is still a problem. You keep latching on to PvP gear gaps while not acknowledging the very real skill gap that exists. That skill is more important then the gear gap.

So you’d burn down the game you supposedly love just to own the casuals?

[rhorle]

So you’d burn down the game you supposedly love just to own the casuals?

What a weird stupid way to boil everything down. You are suggest that the game gets burned down anways while you keep paying for it. Casuals are not being owned simply because they can't get Heroic and Mythic raid level gear easily. There is no reason why every reward needs to be handed out simply because you log in to the game. Because that is essentially your argument.

That the only way to create good game design and have a thriving game is to hand gear out to casuals simply because they log in and do minimal stuff. If a player doesn't love the game they should find another game to love. That is never a bad thing despite you insisting that it is. If a game can't find enough players to be sustainable then it shuts down or does something to change. It is the way the world works. Yet you somehow call that bad. Why?

[Kaver]

Its 100% the fault of the hardcore player group that bitched about mandatory content.

That never had anything to do with ilvl. That was in relation to AP farming etc. Again, hardcore players are not to blame for the poor progression path that Blizzard made for casual. Hardcore players are not to blame for ilvl 197 covenant gear that removes all sense of gear progression in dungeons/lfr/normal raiding.

[Tadkins]

So go play Final Fantasy. Move on. It isn't inconceivable that someone cares about the game when they no longer play it. But you are spending hours a day ranting about things. That isn't a healthy expression of dislike. You don't care about the game anymore because that is why you stopped playing. You desperately want to still care which is why the game needs to cater to your very specific needs.

You even stated your pinnacle was Heroic raiding and that you don't want the best gear in the game to progress as a casual. The current game gives you exactly that by allowing you to casually get the tier below your pinnacle. Yet it is still a problem. You keep latching on to PvP gear gaps while not acknowledging the very real skill gap that exists. That skill is more important then the gear gap.

And you are sitting there responding to my rants and defending the status quo.

Anyway it is an issue because skill currently doesn't matter in random BGs. Its all about who has the gear. I could be the most hyper skilled player in the world, and my 200 set isn't going to do jack against a 226. Of course most players are not that skilled, so there should be an equalizer in gear. Cap random BGs at 200 ilvl like casual content should be. That would fix things.