Death became meaningless in WoW

[Super Dickmann]

Couldn't help but picture this

I was about to reply with this in text to @Nerovar, but the visual edit makes this joke much better. Cheers. And yeah, don't think about it too hard, the writers certainly didn't. On one hand I can't blame them since lore on the topic is such a shitshow, see that bit in Icecrown where a paladin dies so you stitch him together from bits you dig out of several different abominations with needle and thread and he's somehow fully alive again. Not zombified, just a regular living dude. Not even that sad about it.

Then again, that's no excuse since knowing this you should never have touched the concept in the first place.

[Lord Pebbleton]

I think that's still an example of flaunting death and making it cheaper...

you defeat the boss. It's laying there "dead" across the template. You get back to town and "you know he lived, right..."

I see where you are coming from, but by the looks of it, it was at least planned from the get-go to end that way. You get the new info about him surviving right after getting out of the raid, so it's not something reworked/retconned years later. It's cheap, yes, but they at least had a vision for it (even if he died a second later in Magister's Terrace).

[username993720]

What I mean is that with all the retcons, time rewinds, afterlife-where-characters-live, and other BS from Blizzard, the impact of a character dying became zero. I liked it A LOT more before the end of MoP, because even Arthas dying got me emotionally invested.

Nowadays it's pretty much impossible to care, because you know any character can be brought back through some gimmick.

Well, wasn't it epic when Goku was brought back to life to face whatever enemy was threatening Earth?
Wasn't it exhilarating to see Barbosa coming back to life in Pirates of the Carribean?
Sometimes, it's rather exciting.

[Nynax]

We're up to four Uthers - ghost Uther at his Tomb, Frostmourne Uther in ICC, Bluther in Bastion and crystal Uther in the Jailer's bondage dungeon. Soon we'll have five Uthers, burgers and fries. Every single one of them except the second being nonsensical.

I don't think any of the writers remember tomb Uther, but them choosing to go with the same way they explained Tassadar's stupid ghost in SC2 being a space squid is plausible. I'm also partial to them using the whole bit about how the Shadowlands are out of space and time to say that the Uther we see in TBC is actually the complete Uther we help make in 9.1 who exists out of time.

It's the best form of writing, don't you think?

*checks quantum physics notes* "All realities exist simultaneously, therefore...I can do whatever the fuck I want."

[Magical Mudcrab]

Good one.

It really is quite silly if you spend more than 2 seconds thinking about this.

It's silly because everyone in the story acts like their playing 4d chess when they're really playing a game of connect four and reset the game every time someone gets 3 pieces in a row.

[Athorha]

Its a story... death is symbolic. Just cause you're participating doesn't make it any less confined to the nature of story telling. You or anyone else for that matter becoming too individualistic of overlapping themes within a story and your base depiction irl is completely on you for being mislead as to the eventual outcome of the story

[mickybrighteyes]

Except he didn't die. He was close to it, was recovered by the Legion and put on demonic life support. The very event that takes place when you turn in his orb to A'dal has him gloat about how his lackeys "didn't finish the job."

Then they might have better spent time to have a different Loot chest that wasn't his body labelled "dead"

- - - Updated - - -

Good one.

It really is quite silly if you spend more than 2 seconds thinking about this.

At this point I'm assuming the real terrible thing about the Maw's power infused weapons was ripping souls apart and making multiple copies... The problem otherwise is the handling of "the LIGHT" now.

The Light seems like it's now totally not related to the Shadowlands and the "typical" afterlife we see as part of Shadowlands.

[Stormdash]

What I mean is that with all the retcons, time rewinds, afterlife-where-characters-live, and other BS from Blizzard, the impact of a character dying became zero. I liked it A LOT more before the end of MoP, because even Arthas dying got me emotionally invested.

Nowadays it's pretty much impossible to care, because you know any character can be brought back through some gimmick.

It's a two-fer - not only have they made death meaningless, they've also demystified it, and much of the other Big Questions that usually drive thought-provoking introspective moments in popular fiction (and indeed life). "Death" in the Warcraft lore is just... Cleveland, now. It's a place you can go; inconvenient and out of the way, maybe, but you could swing by and say hi to the old squad after work if you don't have to stay late.

I think about Shadowlands and think back to that genuinely beautiful and heartfelt tribute quest chain in WOTLK, the soldier in Icecrown who has been plagued and is dying, and everything you do in that chain to try to save him, but the last basically just being that he can die and won't be tainted, he'll just go on to the next thing.

What's that chain even worth now? You'll just be popping around Maldraxxus or Bastion and there's old Bridenbrad like "oh, hey Steve!"

This expansion was a terrible idea. Nevermind the systems issues, nevermind debating Sylvanas; in terms of a metaphysics/world-building choice, this expansion was a terrible idea, much worse than BFA.

[Aresk]

It's a two-fer - not only have they made death meaningless, they've also demystified it, and much of the other Big Questions that usually drive thought-provoking introspective moments in popular fiction (and indeed life). "Death" in the Warcraft lore is just... Cleveland, now. It's a place you can go; inconvenient and out of the way, maybe, but you could swing by and say hi to the old squad after work if you don't have to stay late.

I think about Shadowlands and think back to that genuinely beautiful and heartfelt tribute quest chain in WOTLK, the soldier in Icecrown who has been plagued and is dying, and everything you do in that chain to try to save him, but the last basically just being that he can die and won't be tainted, he'll just go on to the next thing.

What's that chain even worth now? You'll just be popping around Maldraxxus or Bastion and there's old Bridenbrad like "oh, hey Steve!"

This expansion was a terrible idea. Nevermind the systems issues, nevermind debating Sylvanas; in terms of a metaphysics/world-building choice, this expansion was a terrible idea, much worse than BFA.

Bridenbrad was taken to the realm of the Light. He shouldn't be found in Shadowlands. Also, I wouldn't hold that particular quest chain too stringent when it comes to lore since it was created in honor of an actual person and as an allegory for struggle with cancer.

[BaumanKing]

Tomb Uther also appeared as recently as Legion and helped us out in finding the Ashbringer. It's particularly funny as he seemed quite convinced that he was with the Light at that point.

Would it be better if instead of blue man group we had the Light covenant? Or at least something related to it? Akin to how Ardenweald and the Emerald Dream are somewhat related.

[Soon-TM]

I could swallow the trainwreck that is SL lore if we actually were to see its consequences in good ol' Azeroth. How would nelfs react when they learn that their goddess is nowhere to be found in the realm of the dead? Just a lame sister of hers, and that's it. What would trolls think about one of their most popular loas being just a second or third rank figure in the actual afterlife? What would humans/dwarves/belfs' feelings be upon learning that the Light is nowhere to be found in the actual afterlife except as an invader? Man, it would be nice to see the faces of all those priests/paladins when they learn that the Light doesn't give a !@#$ about their souls upon death, aside from Bridenbrad's most egregious exception.

[mickybrighteyes]

I could swallow the trainwreck that is SL lore if we actually were to see its consequences in good ol' Azeroth. How would nelfs react when they learn that their goddess is nowhere to be found in the realm of the dead? Just a lame sister of hers, and that's it. What would trolls think about one of their most popular loas being just a second or third rank figure in the actual afterlife? What would humans/dwarves/belfs' feelings be upon learning that the Light is nowhere to be found in the actual afterlife except as an invader? Man, it would be nice to see the faces of all those priests/paladins when they learn that the Light doesn't give a !@#$ about their souls upon death, aside from Bridenbrad's most egregious exception.

Get ready for the reveal for the cosmic plane of Light.

Those with the light never truly die and this is a point for conflict between the LIGHT and the forces of death.

Also what is the deal with Wisp again? weren't they the souls of night elves before?

[Aresk]

I could swallow the trainwreck that is SL lore if we actually were to see its consequences in good ol' Azeroth. How would nelfs react when they learn that their goddess is nowhere to be found in the realm of the dead? Just a lame sister of hers, and that's it. What would trolls think about one of their most popular loas being just a second or third rank figure in the actual afterlife? What would humans/dwarves/belfs' feelings be upon learning that the Light is nowhere to be found in the actual afterlife except as an invader? Man, it would be nice to see the faces of all those priests/paladins when they learn that the Light doesn't give a !@#$ about their souls upon death, aside from Bridenbrad's most egregious exception.

Have we seen any indication that the various faiths (with exception of Bwonsamdi's followers) expect to see their deific figures in the afterlife? While real-world Abrahamic traditions tend to believe that their deity is waiting for them in the afterlife, I'm not sure that WoW's faiths have the same expectations. Particularly given how the Light believers talk about it (e.g. "The Light is with me, even here" while in the Maw or "I am one with the Light" while standing on Draenor), it seems that their faith in life and in death wouldn't be that different.

In terms of Bwonsamdi specifically, he's already the exception to other loa, who for the most part are on Azeroth except while going trough the cycle of rebirth in Ardenweald; most trolls wouldn't expect to see their loa in the Shadowlands unless they are followers of Bwonsamdi. Given that he was only recently elevated above the other Loa (and by a king who's now dead), I'm not sure how surprised trolls would be that he's not the biggest name in the Shadowlands.

[sighy]

I could swallow the trainwreck that is SL lore if we actually were to see its consequences in good ol' Azeroth. How would nelfs react when they learn that their goddess is nowhere to be found in the realm of the dead? Just a lame sister of hers, and that's it. What would trolls think about one of their most popular loas being just a second or third rank figure in the actual afterlife? What would humans/dwarves/belfs' feelings be upon learning that the Light is nowhere to be found in the actual afterlife except as an invader? Man, it would be nice to see the faces of all those priests/paladins when they learn that the Light doesn't give a !@#$ about their souls upon death, aside from Bridenbrad's most egregious exception.

Well there have been cases where direct intervention took the souls elsewhere (Such as Naaru consuming them in void state), but Turalyon being over a thousand years old is a bit sus too, on that front.

[Soon-TM]

"The Light is with me, even here" while in the Maw or "I am one with the Light" while standing on Draenor), it seems that their faith in life and in death wouldn't be that different.

But that was said by someone still alive, and in most exceptional circumstances. I'd like to see what does your everyday priests/paladins (or at least human/dwarven/belf ones) think about it, knowing that there is no Light presence whatsoever in the SL - except as a hostile presence. It would be like telling a medieval crusader that there is certifiably no God in the afterlife, aside from one random incursion that achieved pretty much nothing overall.

In terms of Bwonsamdi specifically, he's already the exception to other loa, who for the most part are on Azeroth except while going trough the cycle of rebirth in Ardenweald; most trolls wouldn't expect to see their loa in the Shadowlands unless they are followers of Bwonsamdi. Given that he was only recently elevated above the other Loa (and by a king who's now dead), I'm not sure how surprised trolls would be that he's not the biggest name in the Shadowlands.

Presumably all trolls are aware of Bwonsamdi's existence, even if they don't necessarily follow him. As the Loa of Death, I'd wager that your average troll would expect old Bwonsamdi to be a high ranking (if not the highest) figure in the afterlife, not just a pathetic janitor working for Elune's sister.

[Nerovar]

Would it be better if instead of blue man group we had the Light covenant? Or at least something related to it? Akin to how Ardenweald and the Emerald Dream are somewhat related.

The Light covenant in the Shadowlands. That would have been even more ridiculous.

I think it would have been better if the Shadowlands remained an actual "nightmarish realm of decay" as described in Chronicles that functions as a sort of purgatory and isn't meant to be navigated by living beings + Uther simply shouldn't be in the Shadowlands.

Ardenweald being the place where druids and other nature aligned beings go after death is also a direct retcon as it was previously stated that they enter the Emerald Dream when they die (we learn this from a dead druid in the Furbolg cave on Teldrassil all the way back in classic).

I just very much dislike the entire premise of the Shadowlands being the definitive afterlife for every species as it was never presented this way in the older lore (and there are several occasions where people commune with the dead) and it fucks with a lot of established things while also further demystifying the Warcraft universe. It never should have been an expansion setting to begin with.

[yuze]

It's not meaningless. There's no peace of death in WoW. When you prepare yourself for the final sleep, the final rest... nope, more 'life' awaits.

The Warcraft universe is literally an endless tortorous loop with no end - is it any surprise characters go loopy and turn to necromancy/dark magicks to put an end to it all?

[Aresk]

But that was said by someone still alive, and in most exceptional circumstances. I'd like to see what does your everyday priests/paladins (or at least human/dwarven/belf ones) think about it, knowing that there is no Light presence whatsoever in the SL - except as a hostile presence. It would be like telling a medieval crusader that there is certifiably no God in the afterlife, aside from one random incursion that achieved pretty much nothing overall.

While far from an "everyday paladin," there is the questline with Mograine in Bastion as part of the Necrolord covenant where they touch on that a little bit. He seems almost insulted that he wasn't sent to be a Kyrian after his service to the Light, and they go into how his history is what made him strong (which I honestly felt was a much better look at the Kyrian covenant and addresses community concerns about forgetting one's family and the like). He doesn't seem at all upset about the Light not having a physical presence in the Shadowlands, instead focusing more on what becoming a Necrolord said about his dedication to the Light in life. He also died a while ago, however, so maybe he's accepted the state of things and had a harder initial transition.

[cparle87]

Then they might have better spent time to have a different Loot chest that wasn't his body labelled "dead"

Do I REALLY need to explain gameplay and story segregation to you?

[mickybrighteyes]

Do I REALLY need to explain gameplay and story segregation to you?

Doesn't matter. We play a game that replaces bosses with literal loot crates when it suits them and this is a thread about undermining apparent death