The case for high end gear from WQ and Torghast

[Adamas102]

I guess but even a 220 would be very powerful to get from that content... it simply isn't difficult.

First off, it can be tuned. But more importantly, it doesn't matter! Everyone gets to play the way they want to play without having their character progression stunted. There really is no good argument against that from a game design perspective. It only becomes a "problem" for the small number of players who want to limit what others get even if it doesn't actually affect them in game. It's purely a mental hangup, not a gameplay issue.

[Log Cabin]

First off, it can be tuned. But more importantly, it doesn't matter! Everyone gets to play the way they want to play without having their character progression stunted. There really is no good argument against that from a game design perspective. It only becomes a "problem" for the small number of players who want to limit what others get even if it doesn't actually affect them in game. It's purely a mental hangup, not a gameplay issue.

It becomes a problem once easy content overlaps mid tier content and creates a system with only easy content and very difficult content. You can progress until you cap out your contents difficulty then move on to new difficulties or roll an alt.

An entire ecosystem can't be destroyed because people desire to be equals.

[Argorwal]

It becomes a problem once easy content overlaps mid tier content and creates a system with only easy content and very difficult content. You can progress until you cap out your contents difficulty then move on to new difficulties or roll an alt.

An entire ecosystem can't be destroyed because people desire to be equals.

I think this is something they’ve been struggling a lot with when it comes to the impact mythic+ has had on the bread and butter social guilds doing heroic raid content.

Mythic+ shows up and is much easier content in both tuning and logistics than heroic raids for mostly better gear (hi domination shards).

It’s really put a strain on these levels of guilds.

[Log Cabin]

I think this is something they’ve been struggling a lot with when it comes to the impact mythic+ has had on the bread and butter social guilds doing heroic raid content.

Mythic+ shows up and is much easier content in both tuning and logistics than heroic raids for mostly better gear (hi domination shards).

It’s really put a strain on these levels of guilds.

I don't know if I agree that mythic is much harder then heroic but I admit I am not in a position to tell. I start the first week of raiding full clearing heroic in a couple of hours and capping mythic plus rewards before that.

That said for the most part they are at least comparable. People here are talking about absolutely massive jump and to be frank I think the weekly chest should be removed from mythic plus as is..

[Darkeon]

That argument got dismantled several times in the thread if you actually read it. It's to ease the repeats of killing that boss as the actual first kill is often ridiculously hard for people clearing it and often has cosmetic rewards like mounts that they want to distribute to their raiders and to prep for the next tier. Not sure why this has to keep getting explained to people saying "exactly" to that horrible argument.

Interesting - it's almost as if that line of reasoning can also apply to mundane world content. Crazy, I know.

[Echocho]

That argument got dismantled several times in the thread if you actually read it. It's to ease the repeats of killing that boss as the actual first kill is often ridiculously hard for people clearing it and often has cosmetic rewards like mounts that they want to distribute to their raiders and to prep for the next tier. Not sure why this has to keep getting explained to people saying "exactly" to that horrible argument.

Ah, so you're saying that people who do WQs etc also deserve better gear since it eases the content

[Devilyaki]

How can they sell tokens if they did that?

[Leer]

And yet there are people in this thread who say casual WQ players don't need better gear because, and I quote, "why do they need to kill mobs 4 seconds faster?". Yet you clearly recognize that being more powerful and doing things quicker and easier is a powerful draw.

So let's face it, folk like you just don't want the plebs to have anything good because it both makes you feel better about yourselves and allows you to sell boosts to those plebs who can only get better gear if they pay you.

I think the issue comes down to difficulty. You can't make difficult world content. They tried with mop. All that happens is players dogpile it till the server collapses.

I could see something like the mage tower being retooled for it but simple world questing is already giving you gear beyond a mythic dungeon. It is far to much.

[Adamas102]

It becomes a problem once easy content overlaps mid tier content and creates a system with only easy content and very difficult content. You can progress until you cap out your contents difficulty then move on to new difficulties or roll an alt.

An entire ecosystem can't be destroyed because people desire to be equals.

There's no ecosystem. What threads like this make pretty clear is that generally people gravitate to whichever playmode they like and prefer to ignore the rest. You think all the people who enjoy raiding normal and heroic or doing midrange M+ with their friends are suddenly going to abandon all that and instead do solo content just because it has a chance for better gear? All you have to do is log on and inspect people to see that the vast majority of WoW players aren't interested in min/maxing. The people who do like doing multiple kinds of content are helped as well by increasing their ability to improve their characters.

[Log Cabin]

There's no ecosystem. What threads like this make pretty clear is that generally people gravitate to whichever playmode they like and prefer to ignore the rest. You think all the people who enjoy raiding normal and heroic or doing midrange M+ with their friends are suddenly going to abandon all that and instead do solo content just because it has a chance for better gear? All you have to do is log on and inspect people to see that the vast majority of WoW players aren't interested in min/maxing. The people who do like doing multiple kinds of content are helped as well by increasing their ability to improve their characters.

I think this is where we disagree and the crux of the issue. I believe the game needs a difficulty ladder that only allows for small cheats here and there in order to work. It isn't that group content is special or deserves some higher reward because some of odd notion of it being harder to get groups going but rather single player content in wow is lacking in almost all challenge.

If you look at something like mage tower. I don't think people would overly complain if content like that rewarded a max level weapon (perhaps for fel totem it would be to much). Just as visions rewarded high ilv without people overly complaining. It isn't that rewards can't go that high for single player content it simply has to be difficult enough to fit into the larger part of the game.

[Yriel]

There's no ecosystem. What threads like this make pretty clear is that generally people gravitate to whichever playmode they like and prefer to ignore the rest. You think all the people who enjoy raiding normal and heroic or doing midrange M+ with their friends are suddenly going to abandon all that and instead do solo content just because it has a chance for better gear? All you have to do is log on and inspect people to see that the vast majority of WoW players aren't interested in min/maxing. The people who do like doing multiple kinds of content are helped as well by increasing their ability to improve their characters.

I guess it comes back to people not actually enjoying the content but only doing it for the rewards.
The M+/raiding community don't likes that idea since in their eyes the numbers show that everyone loves M+/raiding.

If you offer a easier/more fun alternative a lot of people would go there, that would diminish M+ numbers, that may lead to Bliz not giving that much attention to it anymore. Someone who actually likes M+ doesn't want that, of course, thats why they can't accept any alternatives even though they may not affect them at all otherwise.

[Log Cabin]

I guess it comes back to people not actually enjoying the content but only doing it for the rewards.
The M+/raiding community don't likes that idea since in their eyes the numbers show that everyone loves M+/raiding.

If you offer a easier/more fun alternative a lot of people would go there, that would diminish M+ numbers, that may lead to Bliz not giving that much attention to it anymore. Someone who actually likes M+ doesn't want that, of course, thats why they can't accept any alternatives even though they may not affect them at all otherwise.

It is more we want the rewards to match the difficulty... the fear is going even further into the korean grind mmo world. It is better to have easy, normal, and hard in a game rather then easy and insane as the two difficulties...

Think of it like Lotr. We don't see you as evil we see you more like golem wanting the one ring...

[Twdft]

I think this is where we disagree and the crux of the issue. I believe the game needs a difficulty ladder that only allows for small cheats here and there in order to work. It isn't that group content is special or deserves some higher reward because some of odd notion of it being harder to get groups going but rather single player content in wow is lacking in almost all challenge.

I think difficulty isn't really the core issue why you're against solo content providing better ilvl gear: I think deep down you know that you will not be able to ignore that solo content and feel forced to run it to get more gear for the content you actually like to run (raids or/and m+). You don't want that temptation.

The thing is: solo players will never grab your raid slot, they will never push you out of your m+ group. It doesn't matter at all what rewards they get. You just don't want them to get better rewards because... reason above maybe?

[Log Cabin]

I think difficulty isn't really the core issue why you're against solo content providing better ilvl gear: I think deep down you know that you will not be able to ignore that solo content and feel forced to run it to get more gear for the content you actually like to run (raids or/and m+). You don't want that temptation.

The thing is: solo players will never grab your raid slot, they will never push you out of your m+ group. It doesn't matter at all what rewards they get. You just don't want them to get better rewards because... reason above maybe?

I can see your point and it does come down to a personal question. For me the answer is no... I found visions though flawed an excellent first step in solo progression. I don't want to see more grind content added to the game. I see there as being far to much as is and yeah a part of that is from being roped into it by blizzard.

I don't think anyone who does world quests will ever be competition for me...hell most CE raiders wouldn't be able to knock me from my perch it isn't self preservation so much as recalling what it was like to be mid tier all those years ago. The game honestly does break down when you flood people into content they are not ready for.

[Twdft]

The game honestly does break down when you flood people into content they are not ready for.

Which content would that be? Solo players play by definition: alone.

[Soikona]

titanforging is fine if it doesn't go higher than what you can normally acquire (252 currently).

i'd even say it's a good thing since it keeps people interested in easy content for longer.

Rewards based on luck and not skill are always going to be the worse option.

[Leer]

Why do you care if it's difficult or not, if it's not the content you're interested in? The people that play it are fine and happy with it's difficulty level. Contrary to what you might think, video games are not intended to be morality engines that only dole out rewards to the people that play in certain ways.

I couldn't care less if someone cracks nuts all the way to BiS gear, it neither picks my pockets nor breaks my legs and it is not my business how someone else finds enjoyment in a leisure activity meant for entertainment. The only sop I give to the "hardcore's" that can't help themselves from eaking out every minimal upgrade is that it should be at a slow enough rate that those obsessives won't benefit from it so they don't cry all over the forums nonstop about how they're "forced" to do things. By the same token, players uninterested in manually-grouped content should not be "forced" to play that sort of content (rated BG/Raids/M+) to earn useful rewards that keep them interested in the game.

Because it is available to everyone... Johnny key beaker who doesn't know a rotation will gear via the path of least resistance and force the creation of a gate keeper system like raider io... it's why selfish reasoning doesn't really work here. It isnt about you but the wider effect.

[Firefall]

One good thing in Warlords was the raid items one level "higher" than your current difficulty from missions. It meant that people geared up quickly at the level they played at, but also created a gradual nerf system to every level EXCEPT the highest, that felt organic. Giving casual players better gear very slowly still benefits all levels of raiders.

[Xath]

I can pay 150k once a week for a guaranteed piece of 252 loot from M+
but getting a 252 piece of loot from World Quests or Torghast takes less skill and thus, is not deserving of the same reward?

There isn't one end of story.

- - - Updated - - -

Then it should just be on non-Mythic stuff. Mythic tier gear could be the cap. Doing WQ and heroic dungeons are dead content essentially without TF or some sort of Valor Point system with a vendor that updates their wares every patch.

No, the cap could be normal raid gear. Oh wait that's already what is via the Korth upgrade system.

[Hellobolis]

Rewards based on luck and not skill are always going to be the worse option.

historically skilled and unskilled players can always get the same high level gear.

the only difference has always been the speed at which you can get it.

my main is usually at max ilvl a few weeks into a patch, my alts mostly have to rely on the weekly vault so they are much much slower.

do i really care if my alt/some casual gets 1-2 extra vault ilvl rewards by luck per patch cycle? no.
is it really going to affect my profit from M+ boosting if casuals get 1-2 extra vault ilvl rewards from luck? no.
does it really affect my guilds progress speed if i reach max ilvl a week sooner or later? no.

i do agree with you in princple though: im a cutting edge raider but through pure luck i only have a 226 chestpiece. where can i sign up for the skillbased 252 chest plz?