How do the Shen'dralar Highborne and the void elves (ren'dorei) view each other?

[Varodoc]

You are assuming blizzard can actually shift focus entirely away from humans and heavily focus on developing Night elf, draenei, void elf and dwarves - the 4 most popular alliance races in that order.

Night elves? Dwarves? Who exactly mentioned them?

What we know is that High Exarch Turalyon, leader of the Army of the Light, is also the Regent of the Alliance, Supreme Commander of the Alliance Forces, tasked with protecting the Alliance citizens.

Thus it stands to reason that Turalyon's own army, the Army of the Light, would slowly and gradually take the spotlight as the main force of the Alliance, wouldn't you agree? It's an army, after all, and having an Army of the Light at the vanguard of the Alliance doesn't seem like a bad idea strategically.

As for the Ren'dorei, well, as proven in another thread here (also on the frontpage), by Moi, the Ren'dorei are indeed capable of fielding significant and considerable military forces and thus shouldn't be underestimated... and since Alleria is Turalyon's chief advisor, and wife, it stands to reason that the Ren'dorei would also have the spotlight eventually, when the FillerLands are over and we go back to Azeroth.

And as for Stormwind, we know that the army has suffered considerable casualties during the Fourth War, Turalyon used the expression "depleted military" to be exact. And so they would have to be replaced eventually, for lack of manpower/resources...

[Tanaria]

You are assuming blizzard can actually shift focus entirely away from humans and heavily focus on developing Night elf, draenei, void elf and dwarves - the 4 most popular alliance races in that order.

So far, it has been well noted that alliance races all interact soley with humans and not with each other. That ice started breaking a bit in 8.1

To be fair it makes so much sense that:
night elves/Void elves/Dranei, Worgen (the humans that are tight with night elves)/draenei & Pandas - become very tight.

Humans/dwarves/high (void) elves/Lightforged draenei and gnomes - become very tight. (Humans include Kul'tirans and Gilneans)


Night Elf Friendship Circle:

1. Night elves
2. Void Elves
3. Draenei
4. Worgen
5. Pandaren
6. Dark Irons

Human friendship Circle

1. Humans
2. Kul'tirans
3. Gilneans
4. Lightforged Draenei
5. High/void elves
6. Dwarves
7. Gnomes
8. Mechas

The idea that Horde players want the Alliance to suffer is nonsense.

This is the sort of thing I've wanted to see for ages.
Not something that is so centric to the Humans and everything and everyone around them, must be made to look lesser than the Humans.

I'd love to see Ren'dorei Magisters and Shen'dralar Mages work together and restore Eldre'Thalas. Hell, Alliance takes Feralas as a starting/questing zone just for Alliance races, but it's Alliance Elf dominated.
Open up the Capital Gardens to the Azerothian Map and let players fly into the Court of the Highborne.

Restore Eldre'Thalas as was hinted at in Cataclysm so it's an Alliance City hub and serves the same purpose of Theramore, only this is elf-led.

[Gaidax]

Mutants all of them.

[Vaedan]

snip

There is definitely enough potential for interaction of void elves and night elves (all groups included). Highborne seem to be most natural fit for friendship, since both ren'dorei and shen'dralar are magic oriented groups. Aside from Nightborne and Blood elf relations, which are build purely on magic practise and magical addiction experience, void elf and night elf relations have larger context, or more fields they can expand into.

Magic
This is most obvious part. Elves are naturaly gifted in magic. Night elves abandoned their arcane magic ban years ago and now with Legion defeated, they have no real reason to shun magic. We might see night elves embracing their heritage again, but I do not expect them to turn into society heavily centered around magic again. On the other hand, void elves can help them to do so. Shen'dralar feels more like lorekeepers and scholars, while thalassians were mastering magic for millenia in all aspects of their lives (from basic daily chores to battle magic). There is one type of magic which seem to be specific for elves - Astromancy.

We've seen Astromancy being widespread among Nightborne and thalassians alike (Kael's forces in Netherstorm). Nightborne astromancers and star augurs are proof that this magic practise dates back to pre-Sundering era, so it's only natural that night elves as whole can return to this practise as well. It fits them extremely well and this is the kind of magic you would expect from kaldorei - children of stars.

As for void elves, we've seen Kael's astromancers delve into shadowy magic, possibly exploring dark mysteries of the universe, rather then mystical power of celestial objects (as Nightborne do). Strangely, the only astromancers we've seen were those loyal to Kael (on the other hand, few of his most trusted advisors were astromancers - Solarian, who turned herself into a void being, and Capernian). It seems the practise was abandoned after Kael's betrayal and is no longer evident within sin'dorei society. I can imagine void elves reintroducing this type of magic into their culture. It fits them too. As I said, Kael's astromancers showed there are ways how to approach Astromancy and ren'dorei are exactly that kind of elves who are seeking more knowledge.

To sum up, I think that void elves, kaldorei and highborne magi can develop meaningful relations, based on their ancient heritage. Astromancy seem to be ideal connection and shared interest, with night elves studying celestial bodies and void elves darkness of the space.

Stealth and scouting
Night elves are famous for their natural abilities to meld with shadows. They are one of the finest scouts around. Void elves seem to be adept in scouting too, thanks to their ability to open void rifts to either ambush their foes or reach their targeted destinations. Powers over Void definitely opens potential for stealth combat too. We've already seen night elf - void elf cooperation on this scale actually, during a War Campaign, where Shandris and Umbric with our help infiltrate Zandalari harbor, assassinate Horde emissaries with the Void and implant bombs on Zandalari fleet.
While you would expect prejudice from Shandris towards Umbric, she did expressed little concern about him and eventually, their mission went well. I wish there would be more similar interactions in the future.

Rangers
Both darnassian and thalassian societies have ranger organizations with great influence. Sentinels and Farstriders (quel'dorei and sin'dorei alike) were already working together within Trueshot Lodge and hunter Order Hall campaign, so it's not that hard to imagine that kaldorei Sentinels and Ren'dorei Farstriders/Umbral Rangers would find mutual respect and eventual friendship. Again, Shandris already worked well with void elves. We know that night elves are reclaiming their forests now. After Fourth War, their numbers are greatly diminished. Alleria offering help of her rangers, would be nice touch. Also, void elves does not have any home forests to protect. Their rangers just guard barren rocks in Telogrus, I think they would welcome more forested environment.

[Maljinwo]

The writers don't care enough

Hell, we have void crazies and light fanatics on the same faction and nothing ever happened, not even a "hmph I dont approve of your powers"

[Beloren]

Mutants all of them.

I believe Tyrande called us "derivative elves" - I wonder if a Zandalari heard her, what he would comment.

[Mace]

There is definitely enough potential for interaction of void elves and night elves (all groups included). Highborne seem to be most natural fit for friendship, since both ren'dorei and shen'dralar are magic oriented groups. Aside from Nightborne and Blood elf relations, which are build purely on magic practise and magical addiction experience, void elf and night elf relations have larger context, or more fields they can expand into.

Magic
This is most obvious part. Elves are naturaly gifted in magic. Night elves abandoned their arcane magic ban years ago and now with Legion defeated, they have no real reason to shun magic. We might see night elves embracing their heritage again, but I do not expect them to turn into society heavily centered around magic again. On the other hand, void elves can help them to do so. Shen'dralar feels more like lorekeepers and scholars, while thalassians were mastering magic for millenia in all aspects of their lives (from basic daily chores to battle magic). There is one type of magic which seem to be specific for elves - Astromancy.

This is definitely the case, you have a full on Highborne order, that's not just Shen'dralar nation Highborne, but Darnassians who returned - and in cataclysm they flocked to pick up the arts they had left behind.

The question then lies with how the non-arcane gifted night elves would view htis -the priests nad the druids. My guess is that they won't fawn over arcane casters like pre-sundering times, however I think they would support them encouraged by the Shen'dralar's discipline to free themselves from corruption and the fact that the larger number of Highborne that joined them are Darnassians that stayed true for 10,000 years.

Wolfheart already estbalished that Malfurion and Tyrande both were willing to trust the Shen'dralar to handle all arcane matters, with 0 oversight. This surprised some fans, but actually is not surprising at all when you consider

1. It is Tyrande who sought to add the arcane power back and invited them
2. Malfurion who expresses desire to heal and unit the night elves - legion threat is gone afterall, ban stopped making sense in WC3 when the Legion returned
3. IT would be silly to be fully trust humans and Draenei, Dwarves and others with arcane and no oversight, yet not your own kin who are far more knowledgeable in the arts and have proven themselves capable of overcoming the strongest of seductions - which is quite a feat - considering they di this without an Arcan'dor or divine essence added to their own Well.

We've seen Astromancy being widespread among Nightborne and thalassians alike (Kael's forces in Netherstorm). Nightborne astromancers and star augurs are proof that this magic practise dates back to pre-Sundering era, so it's only natural that night elves as whole can return to this practise as well. It fits them extremely well and this is the kind of magic you would expect from kaldorei - children of stars.

indeed, astromancy would be more prevalent amongst the Night elves, especially the Shen'dralar than the nightborne who've been trapped in a bubble without being able to actually see said stars for 10,000 years.

I viewed Suramar as a snapshot of kaldorei society, a sample of what and how the Shen'dralar community must have looked like and a sample of the kaldorei pre-sundering arcane side of astral celestial magic.

I suspect the kaldorei would be the ones greater detail of this would be uncovered too, as horde fans seem to want the Nightborne to go away from their kaldorei rots and closer to the Thalassians which are focused more heavily on the sun. I've also heard calls for Chronomagic to be a much larger thing amongst Nightborne if blizzard develop the Nightborne further away from their kaldorei roots, I just hope they develop the Highborne Darnassians to show this side much better.

Void elves would be perfect partners to explore the astronomical celestial arcane practical side while the Elune priests explore the spiritual and military applications. As a pairing, void elves and night elves have a far stronger racial leaning to the stars and space than blood elves and Nightborne. Void elves are far more astro based than blood elves, and Night elves have Highborne, priests and druids of which the stars and moon all form a substantial part of their configuration - i mean kaldorei does mean children of the stars afterall. While the same is also present in nightborne for sure, note that it only forms a part of their arcane, and without a strong priesthood or druidism aspects re-enforcing it with other focuses on pure arcane and chronomancy, it's a development that is much more native and thus should be pursued by the alliance wing.

Face it: Night elves/Void elves - celestial star/moon arcane and void magic
void/high elves and human - focus a lot on frost and arcane magic

Blood elves are fire and blood arcane heavy (frost is present too but a clear second to fire)
while Nightborne are chrono and arcane heavy (star/moon magic while present playing a lesser role)

As for void elves, we've seen Kael's astromancers delve into shadowy magic, possibly exploring dark mysteries of the universe, rather then mystical power of celestial objects (as Nightborne do). Strangely, the only astromancers we've seen were those loyal to Kael (on the other hand, few of his most trusted advisors were astromancers - Solarian, who turned herself into a void being, and Capernian). It seems the practise was abandoned after Kael's betrayal and is no longer evident within sin'dorei society. I can imagine void elves reintroducing this type of magic into their culture. It fits them too. As I said, Kael's astromancers showed there are ways how to approach Astromancy and ren'dorei are exactly that kind of elves who are seeking more knowledge.

To sum up, I think that void elves, kaldorei and highborne magi can develop meaningful relations, based on their ancient heritage. Astromancy seem to be ideal connection and shared interest, with night elves studying celestial bodies and void elves darkness of the space.

I think they should, been waiting for them to delve into the kaldorei star thing for a while, it was probably the most mysterious and awe filled aspect about them, with the Highborne back, the priesthood developments, the balance druid lore undeveloped, and the void elves joining the alliance, I think it is time to explore that seriously.

Stealth and scouting
Night elves are famous for their natural abilities to meld with shadows. They are one of the finest scouts around. Void elves seem to be adept in scouting too, thanks to their ability to open void rifts to either ambush their foes or reach their targeted destinations. Powers over Void definitely opens potential for stealth combat too. We've already seen night elf - void elf cooperation on this scale actually, during a War Campaign, where Shandris and Umbric with our help infiltrate Zandalari harbor, assassinate Horde emissaries with the Void and implant bombs on Zandalari fleet.
While you would expect prejudice from Shandris towards Umbric, she did expressed little concern about him and eventually, their mission went well. I wish there would be more similar interactions in the future.

Oh yes, I had forgotten about that. The parallels between "the night" and the void are startling. The "night" the night elves use and employ seems awfully a lot like the void but used only in a defensive way and seems very similar to the way the void elves can shroud themselves. I think the void elves have taken that a lot further, but there are obvious elements in the night elves that the priesthood have made common to all night elves and probably know a lot more. doesn't surprise me though they are the sect that has a night warrior side that involve void.

Also the Shen'dralar studying the void too actually is such a set up.

Rangers
Both darnassian and thalassian societies have ranger organizations with great influence. Sentinels and Farstriders (quel'dorei and sin'dorei alike) were already working together within Trueshot Lodge and hunter Order Hall campaign, so it's not that hard to imagine that kaldorei Sentinels and Ren'dorei Farstriders/Umbral Rangers would find mutual respect and eventual friendship. Again, Shandris already worked well with void elves. We know that night elves are reclaiming their forests now. After Fourth War, their numbers are greatly diminished. Alleria offering help of her rangers, would be nice touch. Also, void elves does not have any home forests to protect. Their rangers just guard barren rocks in Telogrus, I think they would welcome more forested environment.

indeed, this is another aspect that actually is better explored with night elves and void elves. Mainly because Nightborne show no strong affinity there, and the ranger side of the blood elves actually has diminished greatly with far greater focuses on the arcane fire magic and blood magic, even the astromancer side picked up in TBC has been largely second place to fire, arcane and blood magics. But then this was largely night elf territory and fits the void elves much better.

Rangers would be something that fits both sentinels and silver covenant farstrider rangers, as well as the Umbral Rangers, given Alleria, the leader is also a ranger as well as a void magic wielder, not turned magic wielder, she is more than one class like most racial leaders and legendary lore heroes are.

I heavily suspect that most of the blood elf Astromancers that didn't join the legion with Kael'thas actually are the ones that became void elves, curious about the void and the stars. I mean it makes sense, and if it wasn't exactly thought of, I would add that piece of information to void elf lore when it is expanded

[Vaedan]

This is definitely the case, you have a full on Highborne order, that's not just Shen'dralar nation Highborne, but Darnassians who returned - and in cataclysm they flocked to pick up the arts they had left behind.

The question then lies with how the non-arcane gifted night elves would view htis -the priests nad the druids. My guess is that they won't fawn over arcane casters like pre-sundering times, however I think they would support them encouraged by the Shen'dralar's discipline to free themselves from corruption and the fact that the larger number of Highborne that joined them are Darnassians that stayed true for 10,000 years.

I don't they would either. Times changed. Not that arcane ban is lifted, night elves now need to unite. They suffered great losses during Fourth War and they are not in a position to abandon any of their people. With Elune's intervention, they are now on path to renewal, which might (and should) mean reunion of night elves. That could include highborne, illidari and undead kaldorei (Ravencrest, Ebon Blades or Dark Rangers risen in Darkshore). It does not need to stop only at night elves, but mending fences with thalassians as well. They have shared ancestry, after all.

Void elves would be perfect partners to explore the astronomical celestial arcane practical side while the Elune priests explore the spiritual and military applications. As a pairing, void elves and night elves have a far stronger racial leaning to the stars and space than blood elves and Nightborne. Void elves are far more astro based than blood elves, and Night elves have Highborne, priests and druids of which the stars and moon all form a substantial part of their configuration - i mean kaldorei does mean children of the stars afterall. While the same is also present in nightborne for sure, note that it only forms a part of their arcane, and without a strong priesthood or druidism aspects re-enforcing it with other focuses on pure arcane and chronomancy, it's a development that is much more native and thus should be pursued by the alliance wing.

Face it: Night elves/Void elves - celestial star/moon arcane and void magic
void/high elves and human - focus a lot on frost and arcane magic

Blood elves are fire and blood arcane heavy (frost is present too but a clear second to fire)
while Nightborne are chrono and arcane heavy (star/moon magic while present playing a lesser role)

Indeed. Night elves are definitely the most religious of all elves, while void elves are more scholars and visionaries. It can make interesting dynamics. Nightborne and blood elf partnership is centered more about their similarities, their shared focus and experiences.

Oh yes, I had forgotten about that. The parallels between "the night" and the void are startling. The "night" the night elves use and employ seems awfully a lot like the void but used only in a defensive way and seems very similar to the way the void elves can shroud themselves. I think the void elves have taken that a lot further, but there are obvious elements in the night elves that the priesthood have made common to all night elves and probably know a lot more. doesn't surprise me though they are the sect that has a night warrior side that involve void.

Also the Shen'dralar studying the void too actually is such a set up.

Well, also night warrior showed us that night elves are not beyond using dangerous magic for greater good, which is defining point for void elves too. Night warrior powers were described as dark and ruthless, qualities which can be used for Void as well.

indeed, this is another aspect that actually is better explored with night elves and void elves. Mainly because Nightborne show no strong affinity there, and the ranger side of the blood elves actually has diminished greatly with far greater focuses on the arcane fire magic and blood magic, even the astromancer side picked up in TBC has been largely second place to fire, arcane and blood magics. But then this was largely night elf territory and fits the void elves much better.

Rangers would be something that fits both sentinels and silver covenant farstrider rangers, as well as the Umbral Rangers, given Alleria, the leader is also a ranger as well as a void magic wielder, not turned magic wielder, she is more than one class like most racial leaders and legendary lore heroes are.

I heavily suspect that most of the blood elf Astromancers that didn't join the legion with Kael'thas actually are the ones that became void elves, curious about the void and the stars. I mean it makes sense, and if it wasn't exactly thought of, I would add that piece of information to void elf lore when it is expanded

Nightborne and blood elves represent high class. They are elves who live in pristine cities. The idea of rugged woodland elves is not that strong for them. Sure, blood elves have Farstriders who play significant role within their society, but the main focus is on mages and blood knights. Night elves are connected with forests for millenia, it is their expertise. Void elves are exiles banished from their homeland. These settings better accomodate ranger archetype then an aristocratic elf.

My own theory is that Sunfury who rejoined Quel'thalas might likely form Umbric group. It definitely makes sense. They have history with the Void, they might not like the Horde (they were not in touch with Quel'thalas at the time they decided to join the Horde).

[Mace]

I don't they would either. Times changed. Not that arcane ban is lifted, night elves now need to unite. They suffered great losses during Fourth War and they are not in a position to abandon any of their people. With Elune's intervention, they are now on path to renewal, which might (and should) mean reunion of night elves. That could include highborne, illidari and undead kaldorei (Ravencrest, Ebon Blades or Dark Rangers risen in Darkshore). It does not need to stop only at night elves, but mending fences with thalassians as well. They have shared ancestry, after all.

it's a shame a lot of fans don't get this. Arcane phobia outside mages and Highborne conflict is ended. doesn't mean there is perfect love but they've spent too long on that quarrel and provided too many reasons why it makes no sense. And as you said, night elves need to unite. The thrust of their story is recovery and rebuild, their conflict should no longer be internal.

they have great need and good reason to rely on and trust their arcane mages, same with the Illidari too that helped and have always helped but were thought traitors.

Sadly some fans assume that night elves being fine with the arcane or developing great strides on in the arcane means a return to an arcane dominant society like the blood elves - it doesn't, , they have no reason to be. The arcane and it's best wonders won't sway them like it did when they first discovered them, they've known great wonders for nearly 15,000 years and the Darnassian branch lived 10,000 years without them - they would appreciate the power and the conveniences where necessary, but won't have all night elves fawning
It also won't impeded arcane development, which means the Highborne can do wonderful things and advance greatly adding to their power, but without consuming all night elf society
Also, the reliability and strength of druidism is far greater today than it was 10-14,000 years ago, , arcane at it's greatest doesn't overshadow everything else
Wisdom has taught night elves to be content with what they have.

Mage will drive development which would advance night elves in normal ways, but they will have balance as druids promote balance and harmony, and it will stick because priests promote discipline and serenity.

You'd basically have arcane and urban centres likely better than pre-sundering times, and forest and rural areas more mystical and deep wild magic than in long vigil times. it's all set up.

Indeed. Night elves are definitely the most religious of all elves, while void elves are more scholars and visionaries. It can make interesting dynamics. Nightborne and blood elf partnership is centered more about their similarities, their shared focus and experiences.

it would, and as the oldest and largest elf group night elves have the versatility to maximise such an alliance. The Highborne amongst them are visionaries and scholars too, so will mesh well with the void elves very well. however so to are some priests, their priesthood while religious is also highly scholarly, remember it's the priesthood that first starts studying the well. Magecraft is basically applying the arcane knowledge they learnt to practical uses and conveniences.. there is would be priests involved with theoretical arcane studies but not with mind to build things, but to understand the nature of existence and being a battle priesthood as well, for battle.

The night elf priesthood is so ancient, it has many components, it's not just a religious temple order, i is that, but also a scholarly and martial one, void elves can easily relate to the scholarly part, and we haven't actually explored void elf priests yet - this could be an excellent collaboration void elf priests with the scholarly Elune priests - and Tyrande teaching additional ways of controlling void power which would certainly help the void elves, just as their knowledge would help the Black Moon sect.

Well, also night warrior showed us that night elves are not beyond using dangerous magic for greater good, which is defining point for void elves too. Night warrior powers were described as dark and ruthless, qualities which can be used for Void as well.

Exactly.

Arcane was thought very dangerous by the Darnassians during the Long vigil (not the night elves in Eldre'thalas though nor the Nightborne) but this was because it brought the legion. As the original masters of the art, they had mastered all it's dangerous uses - only addiction that no one foresaw became an issue and one they have solved. arcane danger mastered.

Fel - was thought uncrossable, but the Illidari proved you could master it and not have your soul corrupted, mastering magical means t considerable expense to their bodies and mind (giving everything) but achieving it when your drive is so strong and your desire to destroy an evil to save so complete. notice the Illidari have a nobility, they would give everything of themselves to destroy the Legion to save their people.. and as pragmatist they would let or even kill a few if it meant saving the majority.

Finally the void, this would have less resistance than fel ever would after the Night warrior story, and this story is another thing that endears the two together.

Nightborne and blood elves represent high class. They are elves who live in pristine cities. The idea of rugged woodland elves is not that strong for them. Sure, blood elves have Farstriders who play significant role within their society, but the main focus is on mages and blood knights. Night elves are connected with forests for millenia, it is their expertise. Void elves are exiles banished from their homeland. These settings better accomodate ranger archetype then an aristocratic elf.

My own theory is that Sunfury who rejoined Quel'thalas might likely form Umbric group. It definitely makes sense. They have history with the Void, they might not like the Horde (they were not in touch with Quel'thalas at the time they decided to join the Horde).

Exactly, nightborne don't have a woodland elf component to them. blood elves do, but it's a facet that hasn't been shown much, played down to emphasise the higher class aspect of the Thalassians, but it is there.

The beauty of the night elves is they have multiple components, the high class component is there via the Highborne, the wood elf component via the druids and sentinels, but the religious component which ranges from operating majestic temples of highest civilization centres and operating in rural areas. that same priesthoods martial component is very rural woodland based because for 10,000 years it was only forest it had to guard, but for 5,000 years before that t it's root is it's civil and temple component.

druids may seem very rural, but their rural doesn't' mean primitive, they are more than meets they eye, they seem simple and primitive in their garb in the middle of forests with no civilization, but they are highly intelligent and wise, and many have lived in the highest civilizations and some were mages and Moonguard and did not return to that calling when the ban was lifted because of the peace they found. Their beauty is extravagant too and people don't realise that while priests and mages craft their beauty in the Temples and cities they build, druids craft their beauty in the very forest, the rich verdant forest, canopy of flowers is more intricate than any city or building, no need for fancy clothes, you can't complete with the beauty of the flower, so they actually are highly complex and developed but because people don't notice that in a forest and can't tell the difference between a night elf druidic enhanced forest and a normal one because for some of the other races it's just woods and flowers, and animals are just things to either hunt or run away from , not caring how different they can be, how diverse and how so much better, even intelligent if studied well. The druid is a puritan here - but a mistake fans make is thinkign this is how al lnight elves are it isn't.

Most night elves love the beauty of nature, but also of temples if priests, and cities if normal. It is why cities have and their homes have gardens and plants too, but their love isn't as pure no wholesale as the druids. Just like all had appreciation for the arcane and marvelled at its wonders, but no one quite as much as mages.

The advanced and highly sophisticated level of the druids is lost on a lot of fans because they just see forest and simple clothes and think it an undeveloped society or a regressed one. but the druids are so advanced and you can tell when you are able to grow a world tree and guide the evolution of the world. now night elves appreciate this, not sure if blood elves or Nightborne do .. the Shen'dralar may not have done, but they soon appreciated Malfurion's power, and they would have come in contact with some of their former mage buddies too who remain druids.

When you realise it's some of these arcane wonder mages that became druids, it would be foolish to think that druids are primitive unintelligent and not scholarly, quite the opposite, the same academic rigour at the height of the night elf civilization is what was applied to nature studies by Malfurion and the night elves, and this is why it developed so greatly enough to become a class of it's own rather than just adhoc spells a crude village shaman or or noob botanist might use and it's probably why, despite their great expertise and advancements, the druids are so highly revered by all night elves and why pretty much even with the return of arcane wonders and night elf civilization even better than the pre-sundering era, you won't have wholesale night elf society flocking ot the arcane like before.

Each order- the priests, the druids and the mages have incredible power, knowledge, and sophistication they don't feel the need to rush to another order - they can appreciate from a distance and so night elves will choose the path they are most naturally inclined to.

While every night elf can cast arcane spells, only those who are talented will pursue the arts this time round, it won't draw from druids anywhere near as much.

is ay that fully knowing that we did have quite a few former highborne return to the arcane arts... while some would have stayed druids, others would not have. It woudl be a matter of talent. During the ban, they'd have been no other avenue of study to pursue some would not be gifted with nature, but would have to stick with it, while others would have found they were as good with nature now as they were with the arcane - I believe it is these that are the balance druids.


The ones that stuck it through , would have now returned to being Highborne - of the others, some would return, some won't. There is so much depth t the story of the night elves.

Night elves are connected with forests for millenia, it is their expertise. Void elves are exiles banished from their homeland. These settings better accomodate ranger archetype then an aristocratic elf.

My own theory is that Sunfury who rejoined Quel'thalas might likely form Umbric group. It definitely makes sense. They have history with the Void, they might not like the Horde (they were not in touch with Quel'thalas at the time they decided to join the Horde).

And night elves have those who have been connected with the arcane for millennia too, in practice. All night elves love nature, have lived int eh forests but also been filled with the power of the well of eternity too, so their arcane potential is there.

Those in Eldre'thalas, the Shen'dralar have used magic for millennia too, just like those in the north have been in the forest, though it is the druids that used nature magic, the priests were either hunters or Elune casters.

But it is as you say. nothing you said here is wrong, even though I point out the diversity of the night elf group so it isn't forgotten. There is the ranger archetype that meshes well with the night elves. The order of Elune's Sentinel wing is entirely ranger based.. it's not a caster group like the Moon Priestesses are, it's martial made up fo female warriors, hunters and rogues - void elves can mesh with these very well and compliment them too.

I agree with your theory. I think the vast majority of the Astromancers and scryer scholars too - because these are the ones that look to the stars and the void, but it will also explain the huge suspicion and reluctance from the blood elf main group, - like an uneasiness not just because they were studying the void, but because these had been Sunfury elves, a powerful and scholarly group but who had turned dark from staying with dark powers too long, and probably aided in why they were ostracized. and often rejected.

[Synvanas]

My own theory is that Sunfury who rejoined Quel'thalas might likely form Umbric group. It definitely makes sense. They have history with the Void, they might not like the Horde (they were not in touch with Quel'thalas at the time they decided to join the Horde).

The problem with that is, even if (some) Sunfury might have had an interest for the Void and the star thematics, and might dislike the Horde, they absolutely dislike the Alliance too, because those were the very same Elves who felt the racism of Garithos on their own skins, and almost paid with their own lives because of him. Not to mention they had no problem attacking the Draenei and the Alliance in general in Outland. They also wouldn't be interested in the STUDY of the Void as a force, they would be interested about its powers for the sake of...more personal power. No way a group like the Sunfury who dislike the Alliance and doesn't agree with the objectives of the Void Elves would join them in my opinion.

Also because if they did, we would likely know by now, Blizzard certainly would mention them among the Void Elves if that was the case. For now we just know they keep serving in the army of Silvermoon, and they certainly are grateful that they were forgiven and not executed or exiled because of them following Kael'thas, so certainly that's already good enough for them...

[Beloren]

The problem with that is, even if (some) Sunfury might have had an interest for the Void and the star thematics, and might dislike the Horde, they absolutely dislike the Alliance too, because those were the very same Elves who felt the racism of Garithos on their own skins, and almost paid with their own lives because of him. Not to mention they had no problem attacking the Draenei and the Alliance in general in Outland. They also wouldn't be interested in the STUDY of the Void as a force, they would be interested about its powers for the sake of...more personal power. No way a group like the Sunfury who dislike the Alliance and doesn't agree with the objectives of the Void Elves would join them in my opinion.

Also because if they did, we would likely know by now, Blizzard certainly would mention them among the Void Elves if that was the case. For now we just know they keep serving in the army of Silvermoon, and they certainly are grateful that they were forgiven and not executed or exiled because of them following Kael'thas, so certainly that's already good enough for them...

Not necessarily, IF Kael'thas was so filled with hate he betrayed everything, then some of the hatred of the alliance "if it was that"would be considered part of the error.

The humans and the alliance didn't sin against the blood elves, it was Garithos, once the trauma of Arthas devastation has abated someone, it would be easy to see that Arthas also nearely destroyed the alliance, and Lordaeron, was totally destroyed, , unlike Quelt'halas, did not survive, and less than 10% of the humans were saved.

Also Garithos' racism was not mentioned initially as the reason why blood elves went horde either, and thehir is a story of blood elves of all sorts going alliance.

Sunfury may be more likely to go alliance too. The way the scryer story was written, i would not have been surprised if the blood elves reconciled with the alliance after that redemption arc. The schism was emphasised for faction conflict reasons, and likely would have gone a totally didn't direction if we didn't have this forced fixed faction division.



But Vaedan has a point though, the elves studying the nether would be the ones most interested in the void, and also the ones least trusted because of Kael'thas' betrayal. Also they commit themselves to the alliance after being rescued and accepted by Alleria, while rejected by their friends, and finding the alliance open to having them too.

turns out they also feel the alliance is a more decent place, which makes mwe wonder how many blood elves feel that.. It seems the void elves are us ed as an example of the blood elves that would have preferred the allinace. Personally, I hopet hat all of them go to the alliance, and only the blood elves who want to be horde stay.

but then, that might be too same.

[Vaedan]

Not necessarily, IF Kael'thas was so filled with hate he betrayed everything, then some of the hatred of the alliance "if it was that"would be considered part of the error.

The humans and the alliance didn't sin against the blood elves, it was Garithos, once the trauma of Arthas devastation has abated someone, it would be easy to see that Arthas also nearely destroyed the alliance, and Lordaeron, was totally destroyed, , unlike Quelt'halas, did not survive, and less than 10% of the humans were saved.

Also Garithos' racism was not mentioned initially as the reason why blood elves went horde either, and thehir is a story of blood elves of all sorts going alliance.

Sunfury may be more likely to go alliance too. The way the scryer story was written, i would not have been surprised if the blood elves reconciled with the alliance after that redemption arc. The schism was emphasised for faction conflict reasons, and likely would have gone a totally didn't direction if we didn't have this forced fixed faction division.

Also Sunfury elves did not have that same kind of time to develop relations with the Horde. Elves of Quel'thalas did not really trust the Horde initialy, the only reason they joined was to reach Outland as soon as possible and rejoin Kael. After they learned that Kael is in league with Burning Legion, the Horde took care of blood elves and that's where the trust began. On the other hand, Sunfury were those who were missing in larger society in this key moment.

turns out they also feel the alliance is a more decent place, which makes mwe wonder how many blood elves feel that.. It seems the void elves are us ed as an example of the blood elves that would have preferred the allinace. Personally, I hopet hat all of them go to the alliance, and only the blood elves who want to be horde stay.

but then, that might be too same.

I guess not all joined the Alliance. Only those who were interested in the Void were banished and later transformed, so I can imagine there could be a number of blood elves who are not interested in the Void at all, but sympathize with the Alliance. In the end, Lor'themar himself considered rejoining the Alliance at one point. Over the years, Horde cost blood elves many resources in Garrosh's and Sylvanas' Wars, providing nothing for thalassians in return, only shared guilt on a comited genocide. There are definitely reasons for some blood elves to not be satisfied with their partnership with the Horde at this moment. I think it would be a minority in whole sin'dorei society, but still, there can be some.

[Synvanas]

The humans and the alliance didn't sin against the blood elves, it was Garithos, once the trauma of Arthas devastation has abated someone, it would be easy to see that Arthas also nearely destroyed the alliance, and Lordaeron, was totally destroyed, , unlike Quelt'halas, did not survive, and less than 10% of the humans were saved.

You should not dismiss it that quickly or easily, otherwise you commit the same mistake of those Horde fans who pin the blame only on Garrosh and Sylvanas rather than the whole Horde for their crimes. Garithos took the decision but all his men enforced it. And we are talking of thousands of Blood Elves who would have been executed (canonically the Sunfury were at least 2000+). This would have been a huge genocide.

And among the army of Garithos, other than his Lordaeron soldiers, there were:

-Dwarves of Ironforge (they assisted him and never apologised to the Blood Elves for that, in fact, quite the contrary, they sent spies in Quel'thalas)

-Kirin Tor (they were there, did nothing, and never apologised either).

-a minority of Stormwind Humans who were sent in Lordaeron as help (Stormwind never apologised for Garithos anyway; Anduin don't even mention him among the other Alliance criminals like Arthas and Daelin)

Overall, you can see the valid reasons for the Blood Elves, especially the Sunfury who managed to survive there only thanks to the Naga, wouldn't be too happy to join the Alliance...like at all...

turns out they also feel the alliance is a more decent place, which makes mwe wonder how many blood elves feel that.. It seems the void elves are us ed as an example of the blood elves that would have preferred the allinace. Personally, I hopet hat all of them go to the alliance, and only the blood elves who want to be horde stay.

even if the Alliance is a more decent place than the Horde in general, upon arriving in Stormwind the Void Elves characters immediately say that the city is either not as much luxurious or comfortable (can't recall the exact words now) than Silvermoon. They say that naturally, like maybe they have a pang of regret about it, so for the Void Elves even a city like Stormwind is not as beautiful or comfortable than (half of) Silvermoon, actually. Well, they are still Elves of Quel'thalas after all, so of course inside of themselves they naturally prefer their own people over their new Human friends, after all....

Over the years, Horde cost blood elves many resources in Garrosh's and Sylvanas' Wars, providing nothing for thalassians in return, only shared guilt on a comited genocide.

That's quite harsh...they did provide help. Heck, even in TBC it's thanks to the Forsaken if the Blood Elves managed to keep control of the Ghostlands and defeat Dar'khan. Then later, thanks to the Darkspears they defeated the Amani and Zandalari crisis. The Tauren helped them spiritually especially after the events of TBC. The Orcs didn't provide military help (with the justification of being too far, I guess), but they still helped a lot with resources for the reconstruction (Garrosh during Cataclysm helped all the Horde capitals economically). And this is just a short list, probably there's more too.

[Beloren]

Also Sunfury elves did not have that same kind of time to develop relations with the Horde. Elves of Quel'thalas did not really trust the Horde initialy, the only reason they joined was to reach Outland as soon as possible and rejoin Kael. After they learned that Kael is in league with Burning Legion, the Horde took care of blood elves and that's where the trust began. On the other hand, Sunfury were those who were missing in larger society in this key moment.

To Kael'thas the horde was just a mans to an end, a tool, Thalassians have no love ofr admiration for the horde, and I think they considered the alliance better and closer to their ideals, but after the 3rd war didn't want anything to do with them either.

Illidan was certainly the future, then it became the legion, but once those who returned and found reconciliation in Naaru etc, who'd know what was restored.

[Varodoc]

even if the Alliance is a more decent place than the Horde in general, upon arriving in Stormwind the Void Elves characters immediately say that the city is either not as much luxurious or comfortable (can't recall the exact words now) than Silvermoon. They say that naturally, like maybe they have a pang of regret about it, so for the Void Elves even a city like Stormwind is not as beautiful or comfortable than (half of) Silvermoon, actually. Well, they are still Elves of Quel'thalas after all, so of course inside of themselves they naturally prefer their own people over their new Human friends, after all....

They say the exact opposite...

Kelra Onyxraven says "I have only heard stories of Stormwind before now. I will explore its streets and the wonders it holds. May the shadows guide you, <name>."

If we use her as an example, it means that stories of Stormwind are told in Silvermoon, and that (some, maybe not all) elves of Silvermoon would be curious and excited to explore the streets and wonders of Stormwind.

That's quite harsh...they did provide help. Heck, even in TBC it's thanks to the Forsaken if the Blood Elves managed to keep control of the Ghostlands and defeat Dar'khan. Then later, thanks to the Darkspears they defeated the Amani and Zandalari crisis. The Tauren helped them spiritually especially after the events of TBC. The Orcs didn't provide military help (with the justification of being too far, I guess), but they still helped a lot with resources for the reconstruction (Garrosh during Cataclysm helped all the Horde capitals economically). And this is just a short list, probably there's more too.

So much help was provided to them that Theron was calling Varian on Skype behind everyone's back to rejoin the Alliance. And would've indeed done so if not for Jaina's actions.

[Synvanas]

Well, at least the Ren'dorei are polite...but make no mistake; there are no "wonders" in Stormwind, nothing magical that would really amaze or impress an Elf of Quel'thalas (not even the Mage Quarter), Kelra just lies in order to be polite. Maybe in Dalaran, but not Stormwind at all. Unless by wonders she means that there's a lot of different races living in that city, I guess. And the other quote you perfectly know does confirm the Ren'dorei STILL prefer Silvermoon over Stormwind or, well, Telogrus' Rift.

As for Lor'themar wanting to join the Alliance...well, Garrosh happened and that's the main reason. I just hope for the sake of the Ren'dorei a Garithos 2.0 will never happen in the Alliance again, then...

[Varodoc]

Well, at least the Ren'dorei are polite...but make no mistake; there are no "wonders" in Stormwind, nothing that would really amaze an Elf of Quel'thalas, Kelra just lies in order to be polite. Maybe in Dalaran, but not Stormwind at all. Unless by wonders she means that there's a lot of different races living in that city, I guess.

By "wonders" she means "wonders", literally saying "the wonders it [the city] holds".

And the other quote you perfectly know does confirm the Ren'dorei STILL prefer Silvermoon over Stormwind or, well, Telogrus' Rift.

Do post that quote please, I would never dare claim that I know everything every Void elf has ever said in the history of their existence, so I might have missed it

[Vaedan]

That's quite harsh...they did provide help. Heck, even in TBC it's thanks to the Forsaken if the Blood Elves managed to keep control of the Ghostlands and defeat Dar'khan. Then later, thanks to the Darkspears they defeated the Amani and Zandalari crisis. The Tauren helped them spiritually especially after the events of TBC. The Orcs didn't provide military help (with the justification of being too far, I guess), but they still helped a lot with resources for the reconstruction (Garrosh during Cataclysm helped all the Horde capitals economically). And this is just a short list, probably there's more too.

It depends. Horde indeed helped blood elves back in TBC, but not that much afterwards. During cataclysm, the only Horde aid provided during Amani crisis was Vol'jin and his shadow hunters, and we already know that Vol'jin acted kind of independently on Garrosh at the time. What's even more dire is that Halduron (or was it Lor'themar?) had to invite Vereesa and Silver Covenant rangers to defense of Quel'thalas, admiting they have little men to defend their homeland and high elf rangers know the land well. We've seen blood elves fighting all around the world, while their own country was endangered and had to call the enemy for help. Also, as we've seen in Three Sisters, Ghostlands are still undead infested, so Horde did not even bother to help blood elves secure their kingdom. Meanwhile, blood elves contribute continuously to Horde war efforts that mean little interest to them. You know... if Jaina did not purged Dalaran of Sunreavers, blood elves would rejoin the Alliance eventually. Lor'themar and Varian had serious talks about it.

Also, I don't really recall tauren helping spiritualy, but I certainly remember draenei, and Velen, and Alliance leader, playing crucial role in restoration of Sunwell, which was extremely important event for all thalassians.

I also remember Sylvanas basicaly blackmailing blood elves to support her in Northrend campaign, then later Garrosh using blood elves as meat shield and Lor'themar being disgusted by Sylvanas metods during Siege of Orgrimmar, and he even threaten her if she try to raise fallen sin'dorei.

To Kael'thas the horde was just a mans to an end, a tool, Thalassians have no love ofr admiration for the horde, and I think they considered the alliance better and closer to their ideals, but after the 3rd war didn't want anything to do with them either.

Illidan was certainly the future, then it became the legion, but once those who returned and found reconciliation in Naaru etc, who'd know what was restored.

Well, Umbric admits that at least his followers felt always closer to the Alliance ideals.

"My followers and I felt no loyalty to the Horde. When Grand Magister Rommath forbade our Void research, we did not hesitate to break away and follow our own path."

And another quote from Umbric:

We do not stand with the Alliance out of convenience. Nor is it a mere gesture of thanks to Alleria.

Our ordeal has taught us the importance of great powers being in the right hands. We could not allow the Horde to know the things we know, or to use us as a weapon in their schemes.

We fight for the Alliance because we believe in its values. And one day, I pray we will bring all of Silvermoon back into the fold.

We see that there was a group of elves who:
- Did not felt loyalty to the Horde
- Did not trust the Horde
- Shared Alliance values

now, we can speculate if these elves defected to the Alliance already, or if there are still some who do not want to abandon Silvermoon, but are not content with being a member of the Horde. For now, it's quite open for possible "thalassian civil war" plot, if it will ever be a thing.

Now, I don't think blood elves should defect from the Horde. Right now, it's the time when they can finaly reap the cream of their partnership, with Lor'themar being important member of the Horde Council. On the other hand, after Fourth War, I can imagine some elves being done with the Horde and seeking their place in the world elsewhere. Humans were their allies in ages past, and night elves are abandoning their prejudice and mistrust of the spellcraft.

[Aresk]

During cataclysm, the only Horde aid provided during Amani crisis was Vol'jin and his shadow hunters, and we already know that Vol'jin acted kind of independently on Garrosh at the time.

Vol'jin committed treason by sending an emissary to the Alliance to beseech their aid even as the Horde and Alliance continued to be at war. I'd say that goes a bit beyond "independently."

[Synvanas]

Do post that quote please, I would never dare claim that I know everything every Void elf has ever said in the history of their existence, so I might have missed it

It's difficult for a veteran Blood Elf fan like me to keep track of everything the Void Elves say (as they say a lot of things because of the Void...), but I know it exists, I just need a bit of time to find it as I played Void Elf only once. It's basically said the first time the new Void Elf character arrives in Stormwind, someone says the city cannot be compared to Silvermoon, but they will adapt anyway to their new life.

Indirectly it's also confirmed by Umbric and Alleria anyway, as they want to bring back Silvermoon into the Alliance, meaning that they can't wait to take Quel'thalas in their control and leave Telogrus' Rift and Stormwind behind, as Silvermoon would become the new capital of the Ren'dorei of course.

It depends. Horde indeed helped blood elves back in TBC, but not that much afterwards. During cataclysm, the only Horde aid provided during Amani crisis was Vol'jin and his shadow hunters, and we already know that Vol'jin acted kind of independently on Garrosh at the time. What's even more dire is that Halduron (or was it Lor'themar?) had to invite Vereesa and Silver Covenant rangers to defense of Quel'thalas, admiting they have little men to defend their homeland and high elf rangers know the land well. We've seen blood elves fighting all around the world, while their own country was endangered and had to call the enemy for help. Also, as we've seen in Three Sisters, Ghostlands are still undead infested, so Horde did not even bother to help blood elves secure their kingdom. Meanwhile, blood elves contribute continuously to Horde war efforts that mean little interest to them. You know... if Jaina did not purged Dalaran of Sunreavers, blood elves would rejoin the Alliance eventually. Lor'themar and Varian had serious talks about it.

Well, you said basically no help at all, I found something at least, and certainly their help was more than the Alliance help, recently. Ghostlands are mostly left empty because all the people live in Eversong of course. And the Scourge will come from the Plaguelands anyway so they can never be truly eradicated.

(It's not like the Alliance is helping the Void Elves either...the Humans certainly have the resources, but they don't improve/expand Telogrus' Rift one bit..and they send the Void Elves around the world to die as well, like in Nazmir...so they would do the same for the Blood Elves if they joined...)