With Blizz Giving Us What We Are Asking For, Is it Time for 10-Man?

[capri sunset]

I really hope they finally listen, it has been such a disastrous change for small to medium sized servers. They used to thrive, but I've watched guild after guild disband due to the roster boss and with each one goes several of its players forever. And I think something people forget is that these servers have been the lifeblood for the larger servers, the stronger players would be recruited by guilds on them and leave, then the smaller servers would go on to produce more would-be hardcore raiders. That just doesn't happen often anymore on my server, the guilds are all dried up.

It's more then just balance. But in a 10 man mythic situation you could NOT bring enough classes for all of the ability's for a boss that you would be able to get with a 20 man raid.
It would make certain bosses trivial and certain one's impossible and would lead to balance/nerf issues.

I remember when Blizzard gave this reason, and went on to create blast furnace, and xhul'horac, and after that you have to admit there have been few bosses where this kind of thing exists. The reason being that the vast majority of guilds absolutely cannot guarantee at least one of every class, most guilds have struggled to maintain their rosters as is without being able to be so choosy. And that's not a them problem, in an ideal world you would be able to do that, but you have to design the game for the people who are actually playing it.

The other big reason was of course the balance between 10 and 25, but I've always found the narrative odd because it's perfectly fine for some bosses to be harder and some to be easier on the respective difficulties. As long as there's some parity in that regard, it doesn't matter whether so and so thinks this boss is harder or whatever, because they're effectively separate difficulties. It's very possible to just respect that each of them requires their own set of skills, most notably 10 man playing into personal responsibility and 25 into organisation and communication.

That 20 man guilds would start dying (more), no doubt that would happen. There would be unfortunate casualties just like when they made the initial switch, but at the end of the day a lot of people prefer 10 man and would instead be doing their preferred mode. I'm sorry to say but if you look at the state of guilds now, it's eerily similar to how 25 man was looking towards the end of MoP but for reasons that aren't because of a smaller group size mode existing. It's really time to change it for the sake of the game.

[epigramx]

10 Man was on par with difficulty as 20M

It's irrelevant. There was a constant flamewar between 10man guilds and 25man guilds about who is the most hard-core (and usually 25man people were winning the debate because it was harder to organize their guild (as most of you admit in here)) but that's irrelevant compared to the point that there was a constant war about it); the 25man guilds were the best ..."10 man" guilds because they split to 2 farm raids or even if 10man was harder: they could cherry-pick the perfect classes for 10man and be the best; the best "10man' players who wanted to join a better guild applied to 25man guilds.

So you see: one of them had to die because one of them was cannibalizing the other at a social level; and this is BEFORE we go to the technical impossibility to balance them (coding level); 20man is a good middle ground because the game has 12 classes and it NEEDS a big gametype to utilize them all in a balanced way while 25 man was probably starting getting too big to manage as a raid leader so see the big picture and run a 20man because it's the best balance between the two.

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there have been few bosses where this kind of thing exists.

The current raid can not be completed (without going insane at least) if you lack some classes.

[kaminaris]

It's irrelevant. There was a constant flamewar between 10man guilds and 25man guilds about who is the most hard-core

Who cares? Honestly, nobody. Its like two kids bragging about which dad has better car.

(and usually 25man people were winning the debate because it was harder to organize their guild (as most of you admit in here)) but that's irrelevant compared to the point that there was a constant war about it); the 25man guilds were the best ..."10 man" guilds because they split to 2 farm raids or even if 10man was harder: they could cherry-pick the perfect classes for 10man and be the best; the best "10man' players who wanted to join a better guild applied to 25man guilds.

tedious/annnoyng =/= hardcore

So you see: one of them had to die because one of them was cannibalizing the other at a social level; and this is BEFORE we go to the technical impossibility to balance them (coding level); 20man is a good middle ground because the game has 12 classes and it NEEDS a big gametype to utilize them all in a balanced way while 25 man was probably starting getting too big to manage as a raid leader so see the big picture and run a 20man because it's the best balance between the two.

And it should have been 20M that needed to die because 10M was the only one that had future. 20M is cannibalizing itself. Blizzard tries to hard designing game for "ideal" audience that just doesn't fucking exist. If you dont take into account that people are not ideal then your game is going to suck.

[kenn9530]

Press X to doubt. 10 Man was on par with difficulty as 20M - and that is a simple fact.
Another simple fact is that fights were nearly the same with exception of different amount of HP (and number of targets).
Saying that "In 10 man 1 person would deal with 1 single mechanic at a time, in 20 man 4-5 would be dealing with a mechanic at the same time" is such and incredible nonsense that literally anyone who played back then will tell you.

So, that leads to 3 conclusions:
Either you didn't really raid back then
Or you had incredibly bad team as 25 man.
Or you are bad player that got carried in 10M while facing harsh reality in 25.

The bad player is yourself thinking 10 man is even remotely challenging content, its just a simple proven fact 10 man is easier, we all know you are talking BS if you think otherwise, enjoy being another bad player.

10 man has never once been real raiding content, you just want to clear easier content because you cant do it in 20 man. Raiding does not need to be available to every single player, thats the whole point in that content, its for the players who want to dedicate time to it.

[kaminaris]

The bad player is yourself thinking 10 man is even remotely challenging content, its just a simple proven fact 10 man is easier, we all know you are talking BS if you think otherwise, enjoy being another bad player.

10 man has never once been real raiding content, you just want to clear easier content because you cant do it in 20 man.

Pff, you never raided to begin with or got carried if you think so.

"In 10 man 1 person would deal with 1 single mechanic at a time, in 20 man 4-5 would be dealing with a mechanic at the same time"

[Coniferous]

The bad player is yourself thinking 10 man is even remotely challenging content, its just a simple proven fact 10 man is easier, we all know you are talking BS if you think otherwise, enjoy being another bad player.

10 man has never once been real raiding content, you just want to clear easier content because you cant do it in 20 man. Raiding does not need to be available to every single player, thats the whole point in that content, its for the players who want to dedicate time to it.

While there's a lot of flames going back and forth here, I've become certain of one thing: you don't know what a "proven fact" is, lol.

Which is harder is obviously dependent on tuning and mechanics. You can easily make a fight that is harder on 10 man, and just as easily make another fight that is harder on 20 man.

[epigramx]

tedious/annnoyng =/= hardcoree

You appear to have an inability to post without implying other people are liars or hypocrites. We are not lying; we genuinely find 20man better not just technically but also in practice; it's just you that keeps posting "EVERYONE hates what I hate".

it should have been 20M that needed to die

First of all: it was 25man in debate (20man was created as a solution to 25man and 10man cannibalizing each other); at the end of the day there is no contest: the game has 12 unique classes: it REQUIRES a big gametype to be balanced.

[kaminaris]

You appear to have an inability to post without implying other people are liars or hypocrites. We are not lying; we genuinely find 20man better not just technically but also in practice; it's just you that keeps posting "EVERYONE hates what I hate".

Listen, I don't care how you felt about difficulty, that just your subjecting feeling which is irrelevant. What is relevant is that (at least for last 2-3 tiers where 25/10 was a thing) last boss died in roughly same time. And that is a simple fact. Given how much more popular 10 man was, surely someone would have killed it faster than 25 but its not the case, so no, it wasn't easier, overall difficulty was on par.

First of all: it was 25man in debate (20man was created as a solution to 25man and 10man cannibalizing each other); at the end of the day there is no contest: the game has 12 unique classes: it REQUIRES a big gametype to be balanced.

12 classes is nothing, and 20 is not a solution as we see. Biggest proof is how M+ literally BLASTED raiding from the shoes.

We have not seen any changes made to account 20 man because as the other guy said:

I remember when Blizzard gave this reason, and went on to create blast furnace, and xhul'horac, and after that you have to admit there have been few bosses where this kind of thing exists. The reason being that the vast majority of guilds absolutely cannot guarantee at least one of every class, most guilds have struggled to maintain their rosters as is without being able to be so choosy. And that's not a them problem, in an ideal world you would be able to do that, but you have to design the game for the people who are actually playing it.

[kenn9530]

While there's a lot of flames going back and forth here, I've become certain of one thing: you don't know what a "proven fact" is, lol.

Which is harder is obviously dependent on tuning and mechanics. You can easily make a fight that is harder on 10 man, and just as easily make another fight that is harder on 20 man.

A fight is always easier on 10 man, less players in the way and less mechanics to deal with. 10 man is not raiding. I have raided every aspect of the game so i know what a fact is.

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Pff, you never raided to begin with or got carried if you think so.

"In 10 man 1 person would deal with 1 single mechanic at a time, in 20 man 4-5 would be dealing with a mechanic at the same time"

So according to you realm firsts are not raiding then and getting CE is not raiding either, in 10 man you deal with less mechanics that is simple fact you cant ignore, the mechanics also do less dmg, there has been plenty of times in 20 man mythic where 1/4 of the raid have to deal with mechanics when in 10 man at most 1/5th deal with mechanics, healing is easier in 10 man and damage requirements are far smaller.

The good players done 25 man and the bad players done 10 man.

[Coniferous]

A fight is always easier on 10 man.

That's just absolutely, 100% not true. If you think for about 10 seconds you can come up with a mechanic that is harder in 10 man than 20 or 25 man.

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I have raided every aspect of the game so i know what a fact is.

This is not a coherent thought.

[Relapses]

That's just absolutely, 100% not true. If you think for about 10 seconds you can come up with a mechanic that is harder in 10 man than 20 or 25 man.

There is a little bit of truth in that. The only fight that I can think was definitively more difficult than its 25M counterpart was H Garry and that was only because they tuned him so ridiculously high that the only guild to kill him pre-nerf had to 1-heal it. Some mechanics may require less of a fuck-up quotient on 10M but by and large raid mechanics were simply easier with the smaller raid.

[kaminaris]

So according to you realm firsts are not raiding then and getting CE is not raiding either, in 10 man you deal with less mechanics that is simple fact you cant ignore, the mechanics also do less dmg, there has been plenty of times in 20 man mythic where 1/4 of the raid have to deal with mechanics when in 10 man at most 1/5th deal with mechanics, healing is easier in 10 man and damage requirements are far smaller.

The good players done 25 man and the bad players done 10 man.

You dont deal with less mechanics in 10 man, you deal with same amount just spread to less people.
The more you say stuff like that the more im convinced you never raided back then.

The fact you can bring literal apes to 25 man and still blast thru, simply because you had abundance of battle ress is the proof of that. In 10 man a single mistake was usually a wipe, in 25, "oh someone died? Johnny, you do the thing instead and someone ress that guy".

Yeah your entire post is pure nonsense.

[Coniferous]

Obviously this would never happen, but if you could half the list of wow specs so 10 man would work better, here's how I'd do it. You need to get rid of 6 classes and 18 specs.

First the easy ones:

Monks deleted (-3) - you can be a druid now
Demon hunters deleted (-2) - you can be a warlock or a death knight. Warlock demonology spec changed to be like havoc.
Feral deleted (-1)

Then some mergers:

Rogues and hunters merged (-3) into hunter - 1 ranged spec, 1 melee, 1 stealth
Mage and priest merged (-3) into single mage spec - I think to get the most flavor, you would keep a mage spec, then shadow, then holy.

So far, 12 specs and 4 classes gone, but now it gets much harder. Decision time:

Paladin versus death knight: two men enter, one man leaves. I vote death knight. Goodbye paladins.
Still have 1 too many classes though. Soooo... never mind, warlock is gone. Meta spec becomes the third dk spec (blood/frost/meta). That one hurt though.

Final list:

Tank: Warrior, druid, DK.
Healer: Druid, Mage, Shaman
Melee: Warrior, Dk, Hunter
Ranged: Druid, Mage, Shaman, Hunter

[kaminaris]

There is a little bit of truth in that. The only fight that I can think was definitively more difficult than its 25M counterpart was H Garry and that was only because they tuned him so ridiculously high that the only guild to kill him pre-nerf had to 1-heal it. Some mechanics may require less of a fuck-up quotient on 10M but by and large raid mechanics were simply easier with the smaller raid.

Yeah no. We had pretty mediocre squad back then and while 10M core squad struggled to get it progressed, once transformed to 25 we blasted till siegecrafter blackfuse.

Literally 8 bosses done on first day and 2 more on 2nd day.

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Obviously this would never happen, but if you could half the list of wow specs so 10 man would work better, here's how I'd do it. You need to get rid of 6 classes and 18 specs.

That is not possible nor good solution. All they need is to just introduce 10 mans, all recent bosses (last 4 expansions) with exception of like 3 bosses (which were terrible anyways) are almost plug and play.

There is no need to complicate anything.

[kenn9530]

You dont deal with less mechanics in 10 man, you deal with same amount just spread to less people.
The more you say stuff like that the more im convinced you never raided back then.

The fact you can bring literal apes to 25 man and still blast thru, simply because you had abundance of battle ress is the proof of that. In 10 man a single mistake was usually a wipe, in 25, "oh someone died? Johnny, you do the thing instead and someone ress that guy".

Yeah your entire post is pure nonsense.

You do deal with less mechanics, each mechanic is multiplied by the number of players it chooses its just simple math.

In mythic content you cant just blast through content, if the players are shit you will never kill anything, especially these days where the fights are tuned highly gear only helps a little, with perfect play you can carry 1 player at most, for most guilds you cant carry anyone.

You are the one talking nonsense you have never raided properly in the game

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That's just absolutely, 100% not true. If you think for about 10 seconds you can come up with a mechanic that is harder in 10 man than 20 or 25 man.

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This is not a coherent thought.

It is true 10 man is easier, less players to do things wrong and less mechanics to deal with, less healing needed and less dps needed, the only times 10 man was harder was because it was not tuned properly and that doesnt really make it harder.

[Coniferous]

It is true 10 man is easier, less players to do things wrong and less mechanics to deal with, less healing needed and less dps needed, the only times 10 man was harder was because it was not tuned properly and that doesnt really make it harder.

I won't argue that 10 man tended to be easier (mostly because I don't have the baseline to argue) but at the same time, it's just true that you can scale difficulty however you want, so you can just make it harder.

[kenn9530]

I won't argue that 10 man tended to be easier (mostly because I don't have the baseline to argue) but at the same time, it's just true that you can scale difficulty however you want, so you can just make it harder.

Players have no choice in scaling, 10 man is always scaled to be easier, mythic is what it is now, one set raid size so it can be tuned as best possible to give the players a reasonable challenge and something to aim for.

[kaminaris]

You do deal with less mechanics, each mechanic is multiplied by the number of players it chooses its just simple math.

What are you even on about? You do realize that "less mechanics" is complete BS because the amount of people that has to deal with them is halved right? So no, you dont have to deal with less mechanics.

In mythic content you cant just blast through content, if the players are shit you will never kill anything, especially these days where the fights are tuned highly gear only helps a little, with perfect play you can carry 1 player at most, for most guilds you cant carry anyone.

Yes you can, the fact first X bosses being dead first day is living proof of that. All you need is time and either skill or gear.

Please, mediocre players can absolutely do raids in 19 people. You clearly haven't done any higher raiding.

It is true 10 man is easier, less players to do things wrong and less mechanics to deal with, less healing needed and less dps needed, the only times 10 man was harder was because it was not tuned properly and that doesnt really make it harder.

What kind of nonsense is that 10 man is easier but it was harder when it was tuned to be harder. Get off your high horse, this is becoming ridiculous.

And no, you dont have less mechanics to deal with, the amount of mechanics was the same. Targets were fewer since you had half of the group. Still much more personal resposibility.

And again, if they were easier why 10M was killed roughly same time as 25M? Hmm?

[Xath]

Statistics isn't your strong suite i see. Even if 25M guild did also 10M it doesnt matter at all because it was still a drop in the sea.
T15 for example, ~366 guilds (25M) managed to clear 13/13H while ~4578 guilds did full clear 10H;
That is whole magnitude difference. 25M was simply niche.




No, thats not a feeling, that is a fact. It is based on simple probability. Finding people suitable for mythic raiding is like trying to find X people that match 3-4 certain criteria and getting 10 is already pretty hard. 20 is pretty much impossible. That is like trying to find 20 left handed vegetarians that likes spider man movies in medium sized town.

It's not because 25 man was niche it's because 10 man was a complete and utter joke

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That's just absolutely, 100% not true. If you think for about 10 seconds you can come up with a mechanic that is harder in 10 man than 20 or 25 man.

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This is not a coherent thought.

You actually can't. The only way to make 10 man harder than 25 is to purposefully undertune the 25 man.

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What are you even on about? You do realize that "less mechanics" is complete BS because the amount of people that has to deal with them is halved right? So no, you dont have to deal with less mechanics.



Yes you can, the fact first X bosses being dead first day is living proof of that. All you need is time and either skill or gear.

Please, mediocre players can absolutely do raids in 19 people. You clearly haven't done any higher raiding.





What kind of nonsense is that 10 man is easier but it was harder when it was tuned to be harder. Get off your high horse, this is becoming ridiculous.

And no, you dont have less mechanics to deal with, the amount of mechanics was the same. Targets were fewer since you had half of the group. Still much more personal resposibility.

And again, if they were easier why 10M was killed roughly same time as 25M? Hmm?

Because outside of Paragon 99% of the actual good players were playing 25 man.

[kaminaris]

It's not because 25 man was niche it's because 10 man was a complete and utter joke

No, because 25 was niche. You should have competed if it was so joke, if you aint top3 back then then don't even say such nonsense.

You actually can't. The only way to make 10 man harder than 25 is to purposefully undertune the 25 man.

You can, just like it was done in MoP. "Purposefuly undertune 25" lol

Because outside of Paragon 99% of the actual good players were playing 25 man.

The amount of nonsense ive read here is astonishing. ITT: Bad players thinking they knew raiding scene while in reality they couldn't even sniff the blaze from those top 10M players.