Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Zankai27]

I don't really know much about Black Desert or its combat system, but I do like some of the concepts of their characters and weaponry.

I really do like Lancers in ARPG/MMORPGs, and the Lahn looks pretty interesting with its chained crescent-blade weapons.

If we get a Dragon class in WoW, I'd be perfectly happy with them having a Dragoon-flavored Melee spec. I made one myself, but anything that plays even remotely similar to something like Dragoon would be fun and snappy and full of dragon flavor.

Definitely need the other specs to be ranged DPS and healer, we have enough Melee I know, but yeah. Lances are cool as hell.

[Teriz]

I think you're reading too much into the art. Even if it is box art and the class is dragon themed it doesn't need to be based solely on Alex's kit. Arthas was the inspiration for DKs, and their kit goes far beyond his powers and themes in WC3. Same for Monks and DHs honestly.

It wouldn't be only based on Alex's kit, it would also include Chromie and Deathwing's HotS kits as well. Alex's kit would be the foundational base, since her kit allows the shifting between mortal and draconic form. Really little different than the DK, which took abilities from a variety of undead heroes and units, yet formed the core basis of the eventual class.

Also while the eventual DK class went beyond the initial WC3 hero, the WC3 hero formed the basis of the class; Runic weapons, Plate armor, unique mount, auras, Necormantic abilities, etc. The class also received all of the original WC3 hero's abilities.

Same applies to the Monk class. In that case the Brewmaster provided the Monk class it's tanking spec, pandaren lore, armor, weapons, and its brewing sub theme.

And the same applies to Demon Hunters, where the WC3 unit provided the armor, weaponry, core abilities, lore, and various attributes.

In short, the initial unit the class is based on is very important. It forms the base from which the entire class expands from.

I do not think we are going to get dragon customizations for existing races either. I agree I think we are going to get a humanoid dragon race, like the Draconids or Dragonborn from DnD. This class may even be restricted to them.

Why would Blizzard pull concepts from D&D when they have their own concepts that are highly popular? Also why would they create an entirely new class when they pretty much have a class ready to go already that players have already test run and enjoyed?

I think the DH angle is either this is going to be a 2 spec class, this class is going to infringe on the design space of Mages, or both.

And that brings up another question; Why would they create an entirely new concept that infringes on existing classes when the concept they currently have doesn't infringe on any existing classes and has 3 viable spec possibilities?

[D4NNYB0Y]

Yeah, I'm firmly in the camp of the class name being Dragonsworn/borne/something. Evoker doesn't fit a class based on Alexstraza that is constantly shifting in and out of dragon form, and is canonically a dragon. I'm not aware of any aspect or draconic members of their flights ever being called Evokers or Invokers.



No argument there.

I don't think that this is going to be a core mechanic of the class. I think that it is too mechanically similar to DHs. I think this class is going to be a ranged Intelligence based caster first and foremost. I do not think it will have any melee abilities at all. The last 3 new classes were melee based. I think it may even be a cloth class tieing cloth with leather at 4 classes each.

I think the next class we get after this, not necessarily the expac after Dragonflight, will be Tinker and our long awaited mail class. I think they will tie it all together with an Undermine/robot rebellion/Journey to the Center of the Earth/find the World Soul theme. Lots of potential for a tech focus there. Think Deep Rock Galactic but fantasy. It would finally be our underground expansion.

[Khaza-R]

Totally agree on it being uniting the flights, though I’m curious what we’d unite them against. Anxious to see what the plot is.

I'll be shocked if its not Galakrond. He's sort of the perfect vessel to tie in the cosmic overarching story and bringing it back to Azeroth

[plz delete account]

The reason people to this day are wary of new classes entering the game is because of what happened when DHs entered the game. Outside of “balance”, people typically say “I don’t want another class taking abilities from other classes”, or “They could barely come up with two specs for the last class….”

Are we really going to look back at what happened to demonology players in 6.2 as anything other than a screw job?

If you notice, we’re in a situation currently where a class other than the Tinker has a high chance of entering the game. I’m perfectly fine with it in this situation because this potential class won’t bulldoze through existing classes.

Demonology player here:
Demon form was an abomination. If we'd had something like what DHs have now, I'd probably be much more upset than I am

[KayRule]

Boralus as the capital of Kul Tiras is from the RPGs; hell, Tandred Proudmoore, one of Jaina's dead-ass brothers, was one of the things Metzen decanonized long ago, only to have him come roaring back for full-ass canon status in 8.0;

They're clearly looking to the RPG books for some inspiration now, so I can see Dragonsworn showing up as easily as anything. I definitely would prefer Dragon be in the class name to make it easier to explain to people, but I won't complain if what they're "Evoking" is the power of the Dragonflights, provided it does turn out this way.

I'm just happy for any dragon-themed class, and a new class in general at this point. 7 years is a long time for people who like new flavors of ice cream.



In fairness, you can Evoke the powers of something as easy as you Invoke it; (Evoke literally meaning "to call forth"), but Scale's first language might not be English, so who knows if that's what its English name'll be.

LOTS of stuff from the RPG manuals have been coming back ever since Legion. Calia Menethil being found alive by a former Paladin Forsaken is directly from the pre-WoW RPG manual. The forsaken's name was changed, but everything else was taken from that shorty story hook in the RPG manual.

[Teriz]

I don't think that this is going to be a core mechanic of the class. I think that it is too mechanically similar to DHs.

Which honestly lends itself to the hint, since it said that the class was similar to DHs. However, the main difference is that Alexstraza's class would be ranged and have three specs including a healing spec, while the DH is melee and 2 specs.

I think this class is going to be a ranged Intelligence based caster first and foremost. I do not think it will have any melee abilities at all. The last 3 new classes were melee based. I think it may even be a cloth class tieing cloth with leather at 4 classes each.

A dragon class is pretty much required to wear mail. I do agree that the heal and RDPS specs should be INT. The Tank spec should be AGI.

I think the next class we get after this, not necessarily the expac after Dragonflight, will be Tinker and our long awaited mail class. I think they will tie it all together with an Undermine/robot rebellion/Journey to the Center of the Earth/find the World Soul theme. Lots of potential for a tech focus there. Think Deep Rock Galactic but fantasy. It would finally be our underground expansion.

I certainly hope so.

[plz delete account]

I think the next class we get after this, not necessarily the expac after Dragonflight, will be Tinker and our long awaited mail class. I think they will tie it all together with an Undermine/robot rebellion/Journey to the Center of the Earth/find the World Soul theme. Lots of potential for a tech focus there. Think Deep Rock Galactic but fantasy. It would finally be our underground expansion.

Can you put this in lego terms for those of us not pop-culturally inclined?

[Hitei]

Can you put this in lego terms for those of us not pop-culturally inclined?

He says it'll be like Lego Rock Raiders, but more Lego Lord of the Rings instead of Lego Star Wars.

[D4NNYB0Y]

And that brings up another question; Why would they create an entirely new concept that infringes on existing classes when the concept they currently have doesn't infringe on any existing classes and has 3 viable spec possibilities?

HOTS is a MOBA and a failed one at that. What works in a MOBA does not necessarily work in an MMO.

Chromie's kit for example would not translate well to WoW and is not what I think most people visualize as a "time mage" class fantasy

To answer your question, because I believe Scaleface is telling the truth, and he said his first thought when seeing the new class was it stepped on Mage's, specifically Arcane, toes. I think this is because the class will have a Chronomancy spec that appropriates the time theme from Arcane Mages. I would be fine with this personally. There is a lot of design space that Arcane Mages don't explore for time magic.

[plz delete account]

He says it'll be like Lego Rock Raiders, but more Lego Lord of the Rings instead of Lego Star Wars.

Thank you!

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HOTS is a MOBA and a failed one at that.

TAKE IT BA- (remembers winter event is still up)
Nevermind, you are spot on

[D4NNYB0Y]

A dragon class is pretty much required to wear mail. I do agree that the heal and RDPS specs should be INT. The Tank spec should be AGI.

This is why I think it is going to be a full caster and may not even have a tank spec or possibly even 3 specs. The tank spec would have to be based on the Black Dragonflight, and I think the class fantasy there would be human form Deathwing in full plate swinging his big two-handed hammer using dragon abilities.

Basically this:

https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Deathwing_(hero)

But this class is definitely not going to wear plate, it's definitely not going to be STR based, and this class fantasy is too similar to DKs. I basically just described Bolvar but dragons.

I also do not think Wrathion represents an AGI tank class fantasy so I don't think there is going to be a tank spec. At least not based on the Black Dragonflight. I love this class fantasy so I hope I'm wrong.

Maybe we'll have our first ranged tank?

*Edit* Also, because frankly everyone expects Blizzard to design a Dragon themed class with 3-5 specs representing 3-5 Dragonflights, and they know that. There is going to be a twist that no one expects.

[huth]

Kind of strange IMO since I would think Invoker would be more appropriate in this context. Evoker is a Wizard subclass in DnD specializing in Evocation (offensive) magic.

By D&D logic, Evoker is just what WoW calls Mage.

[KayRule]

I mean, by that logic Gilijim's Island has been hinted at for 11.0 and Programmer Island might be next. Dragon Isles wasn't mentioned in actual lore until pretty recently. Do you remember when in WotLK they said 'Shadowlands'? All I found were "ghost world, astral realm, world of spirits, world of spirit, Other Side and spirit void".

The original Chronicle Vol. 1 specified those as the Shadowlands, until Grimoire and Danuser decided Chronicle wasn't canon anymore and those were references to the "Veil", not the "Shadowlands". While the name Shadowlands originated in Chronicle Vol. 1, it was attributing to things we've been seeing since Wrath.

Also while the original Dragon Isles didn't make it out of Alpha, it's definently something players have been aware of. The cancelled Lord of the Clans adventure game and even the WC2 manual both specify dragons living in the northern parts of the EK. But again, you are correct that in canon materials it's first explicit mention was in BfA, though the Exploring Kalimdor book implies the dragon quests in Bloodmyst from BC are tied to it as well now.

[Teriz]

HOTS is a MOBA and a failed one at that. What works in a MOBA does not necessarily work in an MMO.

Er, what? Multiple HotS abilities and concepts are in WoW currently and in the WoW class lineup. Sylvanas' ability set in Sanctum of Domination for example was her HotS kit, and she passed some of those abilities over to Hunters and Rogues. Not to mention all three WoW expansion classes got their entire WC3 kit translated into WoW. RTS abilities are the same as MOBA abilities.

Chromie's kit for example would not translate well to WoW...

Why?

and is not what I think most people visualize as a "time mage" class fantasy

Well yeah, because Chromie and the Bronze dragons aren't time mages. If you want to be a Time Mage, you play a Mage. Chromie's kit is a unique RDPS spec that utilizes the sands of time, which is befitting of the Bronze dragonflight. Players would appreciate that quite a bit.

To answer your question, because I believe Scaleface is telling the truth, and he said his first thought when seeing the new class was it stepped on Mage's, specifically Arcane, toes. I think this is because the class will have a Chronomancy spec that appropriates the time theme from Arcane Mages. I would be fine with this personally. There is a lot of design space that Arcane Mages don't explore for time magic.

Yeah, I don't buy it, mainly because there's only so many ways you can do a time-based spec, and Mages cover pretty much the entirety of it. You speed targets up, you slow them down, you can speed up allies, you can create temporal bubbles that restore your health, you have your cooldowns randomly occur, etc. There really isn't much left beyond that. Also what hero character is this spec based on? It isn't Chromie, and the Bronze dragonflight, because they're utilizing the sands of time.

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By D&D logic, Evoker is just what WoW calls Mage.

Mages even have a spell called Evocation.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Read pages 2061 - 2064 for the full context. Reading between the lines it sounds like the class name is Evoker and one of the specs will be Chronomancy.

Kind of strange IMO since I would think Invoker would be more appropriate in this context. Evoker is a Wizard subclass in DnD specializing in Evocation (offensive) magic. Plus Invoke is a keyword in the Hearthstone dragon expansion specifically relating to invoking the powers of Galakrond.

Maybe Evoker will be themed as a Sorcerer similar to a DnD Dragonblood Sorcerer?
@Scaleface and @feniela any new info before bedtime?

WoW mages are literally Evokers in D&D's context. The original magic system of warcraft was/is even based on D&Ds classification of magic schools (evokation, transmutation, necromancy, etc.) and mage lore pretty much tells us that they just evoke their elemental powers from somewhere else. So an evoker class would be absolute nonsense. It's like implementing a felmancer class, because warlock wasn't warlocky enough.

[Zankai27]

"Invoker" makes more sense if we're being literal

[Hitei]

By D&D logic, Evoker is just what WoW calls Mage.

Evoker is a standardized "spellcaster" in that it can be basically anything magical a given setting wants it to be. Much like "warlock" operates in completely different ways in different settings, or "shaman" is anything magical and relating to nature or more natural spirits.

[D4NNYB0Y]

Er, what? Multiple HotS abilities and concepts are in WoW currently and in the WoW class lineup. Sylvanas' ability set in Sanctum of Domination for example was her HotS kit, and she passed some of those abilities over to Hunters and Rogues.



Why?



Well yeah, because Chromie and the Bronze dragons aren't time mages. If you want to be a Time Mage, you play a Mage. Chromie's kit is a unique RDPS spec that utilizes the sands of time, which is befitting of the Bronze dragonflight. Players would appreciate that quite a bit.



Yeah, I don't buy it, mainly because there's only so many ways you can do a time-based spec, and Mages cover pretty much the entirety of it. You speed targets up, you slow them down, you can speed up allies, you can create temporal bubbles that restore your health, you have your cooldowns randomly occur, etc. There really isn't much left beyond that. Also what hero character is this spec based on? It isn't Chromie, and the Bronze dragonflight, because they're utilizing the sands of time.

Sylvanas is not a playable class in WoW. The weapon procs / actives are a false equivalency.

Chromie's entire kit is based around using time traps to freeze enemies, primarily other heroes, in place so that she can connect difficult to aim skillshots that have a nearly 1 second delay before landing. This would not work in WoW. The Sands of Time theme could definitely work, but I suspect it will be a healing spec not a ranged DPS spec.

Here's a good example of a Chronomancer from GW2:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chronomancer

There's definitely plenty of design space left to explore especially from a support standpoint.

[Mferna]

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