Forget RDF, there is a bigger problem!

[Battlebeard]

just play with a guild and then you can probably easily pug due getting said achievements throught the guild. plenty of guilds out there looking for people for their rooster.

If you read a few more posts in the thread, you see guildraiding is not an option for me.

[crewskater]

If you read a few more posts in the thread, you see guildraiding is not an option for me.

Go play a different game then. Clearly wow isn't for you anymore.

[Battlebeard]

Go play a different game then. Clearly wow isn't for you anymore.

"Clearly", really? Cause it's litterally thousands and thousands of people currently in classic that does not raid with guilds, honestly, seeing pug popularity, it's prolly half the population.

So it's not strange to not guildraid, not at all.

[littlefoote]

Which is of course the biggest disease the game got, Achievements. And also a few other things, like Gearscore addons etc.

WotLK is the beginning of the end for the community, and an inclusive game. WotLK is when the game became elitistic for real, as we started seeing ways in game to divide the community and shift the focus from fun to an unhealthy mindset.

Sure, even Classic and TBC Classic had some issues. Warcraft Logs is the disease that plague the game right now, it sucks but at least it's done outside of the game and not everyone is using it.

With achievements, elitism is taken to a whole new level, as it's accessible in game. "LFM XXX, link XXX achievement", this nightmare happened for too many years and the hype of WotLK has made people forget about this hell. WotLK is gonna turn the game pretty much into retail. People are gonna spend hours looking for groups and then quit, this will make the game unhealthy in every way possible. It's the never ending circle. You cannot get invited without an achievement, but you cannot get the achievement without getting invited. Unless you get the achievement the FIRST week, you are pretty much screwed. Week 2 we will see "LFM Naxx, Link achievement" and if you don't, you won't get in.

Yes there are ways around it, like ways to link fake achievements, but that's not the big issue, the big issue is that WotLK Classic will change the mindset of many people, changing what I believe what Classic should be. Classic should be a nostalgia trip, never a competitive game. I think WotLK could be such a good game, but I fear it will once again be ruined, just like in 2008-2010.

What do you guys think of this? Do you see this as a problem like I do? Do you think this will kill the spirit and fun of the game? Do you also hope achievements will never be added?

And please, no "just lead your own group", this is never a solution, not everyone is leader material, and since only 1 person can be leader, it's not a reasonable demand EVERYONE is the leader to actually play.

It sounds like you’re a very casual player complaining about not getting invited to raiding because you didn’t complete any of the content. Either find a guild to clear with or pout I suppose. The community is already more toxic then wrath ever was. Gear score and fake achievements will not be a thing because of how easy it is to look up logs. I know I don’t want to spend my alt time wiping on fights with a pug that doesn’t know what to do. I simply wouldn’t invite a casual player because that’s not the kind of raiding experience I want. You also don’t want to be in a raid with hardcore players because it’s clearly not what you want either.

[Dioporco]

I don't think anyone should ever have to lead themselves to play the game. Not everyone has the ability to lead, it takes a certain personality trait etc to lead properly, that should never be a requirement.

Learn to lead, be a man, grow up because irl is even more elitist

[The Stormbringer]

And it's also a danger to not have an enforced mentality so to speak, to not have a global standard for the game. Cause the argument "you play it like this, I play it like that" divide the playerbase. I rather want the game to be played only 1 single way, that way 1 crowd is happy and the rest can quit and play another game. Now we all gotta ask ourselves, is this game big enough for both "sides" so to speak?

No. This doesn't work. Retail has categorically shown that this does not work, without any doubts. They have catered to the top ten percent and bottom ten percent for so long, that the other 80% of players have been leaving in droves. That does NOT lead to a successful game, and they actually got a little sense slapped into them back in Shadowland and with Dragonflight. Saying "Oh, there's only one way to play the game." is an amazing way to kill your game. Just... no.

[Battlebeard]

It sounds like you’re a very casual player complaining about not getting invited to raiding because you didn’t complete any of the content. Either find a guild to clear with or pout I suppose. The community is already more toxic then wrath ever was. Gear score and fake achievements will not be a thing because of how easy it is to look up logs. I know I don’t want to spend my alt time wiping on fights with a pug that doesn’t know what to do. I simply wouldn’t invite a casual player because that’s not the kind of raiding experience I want. You also don’t want to be in a raid with hardcore players because it’s clearly not what you want either.

But I did complete the content, I cleared all of what Wrath had, except the Ruby Sanctum boss after ICC on Heroic, I simply didn't bother with that. So it's riddicilous that Classic get achievements, most of us has already cleared it.

[LordVargK]

But I did complete the content, I cleared all of what Wrath had, except the Ruby Sanctum boss after ICC on Heroic, I simply didn't bother with that. So it's riddicilous that Classic get achievements, most of us has already cleared it.

then just don't do them again? what's your problen?

[Battlebeard]

then just don't do them again? what's your problen?

What do you mean? I want to replay WotLK classic, just like I replayed Classic and TBC Classic, I wanna enjoy the content again. But since I already done it, it's absurd that one will be required to link an achievement.

[Therougetitan]

Achievements, Gearscore, Ilvl, RIO, etc is what killed this game, it divided us, and it started in WotLK.

We just don't want to play with baddies. Nothing personal against you. Also this is apart of Wrath so it makes sense to keep it. Go to classic/tbc to masquerade around.

[cparle87]

But I did complete the content, I cleared all of what Wrath had, except the Ruby Sanctum boss after ICC on Heroic, I simply didn't bother with that. So it's riddicilous that Classic get achievements, most of us has already cleared it.

Wrath had achievements, therefore Classic Wrath should have achievements. Isn't that what all the no-changes guys keep insisting on?

[Ehrenpanzer]

I don't really understand this complaint.

People are asking for a proof of competency before inviting you, to try and screen against people who don't know what they're doing, hold back the group, and expect to be rewarded for it.

And somehow that is a BAD thing?

Unfortunately it led to the circular reasoning of:
Player A: Let me join your group, I have decent gear and know the fights
Grp leader: Got the chieve?
A: No, we couldnt get enough dps to kill "X" boss in time
Grp: Then you cant join
A: Why not?
Grp: You dont have the chieve
A: How am I supposed to get it?
Grp: Do the raid
A: .....

rinse and repeat over and over. It wont affect ME at all, just like it didnt back then, but I do know a LOT of people who ended up quitting the game because they didnt have time to commit to a guild raid schedule and couldnt get into a raid despite being good players because they didnt have the achievement FOR the raid they were applying for.

[Tronski]

Which is of course the biggest disease the game got, Achievements. And also a few other things, like Gearscore addons etc.

WotLK is the beginning of the end for the community, and an inclusive game. WotLK is when the game became elitistic for real, as we started seeing ways in game to divide the community and shift the focus from fun to an unhealthy mindset.

Sure, even Classic and TBC Classic had some issues. Warcraft Logs is the disease that plague the game right now, it sucks but at least it's done outside of the game and not everyone is using it.

With achievements, elitism is taken to a whole new level, as it's accessible in game. "LFM XXX, link XXX achievement", this nightmare happened for too many years and the hype of WotLK has made people forget about this hell. WotLK is gonna turn the game pretty much into retail. People are gonna spend hours looking for groups and then quit, this will make the game unhealthy in every way possible. It's the never ending circle. You cannot get invited without an achievement, but you cannot get the achievement without getting invited. Unless you get the achievement the FIRST week, you are pretty much screwed. Week 2 we will see "LFM Naxx, Link achievement" and if you don't, you won't get in.

Yes there are ways around it, like ways to link fake achievements, but that's not the big issue, the big issue is that WotLK Classic will change the mindset of many people, changing what I believe what Classic should be. Classic should be a nostalgia trip, never a competitive game. I think WotLK could be such a good game, but I fear it will once again be ruined, just like in 2008-2010.

What do you guys think of this? Do you see this as a problem like I do? Do you think this will kill the spirit and fun of the game? Do you also hope achievements will never be added?

And please, no "just lead your own group", this is never a solution, not everyone is leader material, and since only 1 person can be leader, it's not a reasonable demand EVERYONE is the leader to actually play.

Wotlk was in every sense a step in the right direction from the cancer that was TBC, the only thing it failed on was giving different gear on the same difficulty for 10m and 25m raids.

WoW is a game where gear matters, players will always find a way to make sure the players they bring have enough gear to auto-attack the bosses to death. Gearscore is no different from average ilvl or "inspect at A'dal".

Achievments were always a great way to make sure the players you brought had at least seen the content, regardless of boost, and the servers were still tight enough for blacklists to matter if someone were just clueless despite having achievments.

[Battlebeard]

Wrath had achievements, therefore Classic Wrath should have achievements. Isn't that what all the no-changes guys keep insisting on?

Maybe they do, which is unfortunate

- - - Updated - - -

Wotlk was in every sense a step in the right direction from the cancer that was TBC, the only thing it failed on was giving different gear on the same difficulty for 10m and 25m raids.

WoW is a ga,e where gear matters, players will always find a way to make sure the players they bring have enough gear to auto-attack the bosses to death. Gearscore is no different from average ilvl or "inspect at A'dal".

Achievments were always a great way to make sure the players you brought had at least seen the content, regardless of boost, and the servers where still tight enough for blacklists to matter if someone were just clueless despite having achievments.

Why was TBC cancer? TBC Classic has been completely wonderful!

[Tronski]

Why was TBC cancer? TBC Classic has been completely wonderful!

Because they took all the bad kinds of grinding and made it mandatory. And by doing so they also took away any kind of agency over how you played the game.
"You grind dungeons until revered, then you grind heroics for attunements and gear."

They reduced this to honored for a reason, 15 years ago, it was just an extension to how poorly planned the whole TBC Classic concept was when they again went for the revered-model thinking it'd be better with way less players. They probably assumed players didn't care for attunements, and removed these as well (back when), but the reality is that they too were locked behind an unreasonable grind. Bots and GDKP is worse than ever, "pumpers" is the only kind of non-goldbuying player allowed in groups. The list goes on and on about how poorly the game has been managed.

As far as I've gathered player dropoffs (percentage) has been unprecedented in Classic TBC, and it hasn't help at all that Blizzard has all but shut down the servers with regards to support, services and improvements.

It could have been so much more than what we got. Wotlk, thankfully, improved upon all of this.

If you love TBC, you love it, enjoy it while it's here, but I, along with plenty of others, is glad it's ending.

[zolfare]

I don't decide, but I believe it's generally agreed that this version of WoW, classic, is really an easy nostalgia trip back to the more innocent days, where raids were easy . To have a hardcore mindset in this version makes no sense, as the hardest content here is litterally easier than LFR in retail.

Classic is like Yoshi Story or some super easy single player game, yet people approach it like it's Elden Ring on extra-hard difficulty (never played elden ring but you get my point).

I litterally NEVER wiped in 10 weeks of MH+BT pugs, and Naxx is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH easier than MH/BT. Sure my pug was great, but it's still riddicilous that achievements will come to the game.

All of these points are silly to me. WotLK without LFG is going to be one of the greatest classic experiences BECAUSE of achievements. I fondly remember playing TBC and the end of vanilla and not really having a solid group of friends or guild that I played with all the time. I did some of the raids in pugs, and got heroic gear etc in TBC, but it wasn't until I started working on achievements that I really wanted to find a group of friends to do this content with. EX. Can you pug the heroic dungeon achievements? Sure, but it is a lot easier if you find a group to do them all with. These are goals that you can chase after without having to do raid content or dungeons all the time.

You act like raids and dungeons are the only form of content in the game. Do you expect people to not be interacting with each other over this? Instead of mindlessly farming heroic dungeons all day then doing your one raid a week, you have other activities to sink your teeth into and try and achieve, and while some can be done alone, a lot of them require you to do them with other people and coordinate. This involves the community.

Unfortunately I think that you will be in the vast minority on this one. I will bet that as close to 0 people as you can get will want to have achievements removed. I would actually be willing to bet that more people want DKs removed than achievements.

[LordVargK]

What do you mean? I want to replay WotLK classic, just like I replayed Classic and TBC Classic, I wanna enjoy the content again. But since I already done it, it's absurd that one will be required to link an achievement.

But you will get the achievement anyway by playing the game? How do you get into raids in TBC?
That way won't change.

[Speedlance]

Gearscore isn't that bad, it's far better then meeting at adal for gear check.

[Kralljin]

As far as I've gathered player dropoffs (percentage) has been unprecedented in Classic TBC, and it hasn't help at all that Blizzard has all but shut down the servers with regards to support, services and improvements.

Oh please do present your findings.

[Konteil]

ok heres my 2 cents. im about as casual as it gets in my old age. i play on TBC classic alliance side on pagle. I dont have hours and hours to grind meta and bis and shit like that. i play maybe 6 hours a week maximum cause work kids house wife etc. So o made a guild with other people like me. we dont have a lot of time. we dont want to farm shit all day but we still want to raid. so we do. we group up a few night a week and farm badges on heroic. weekends we have an early sunday raid team and us old farts with kids raid late night on saturday after we put kids to bed. we do a few bosses from each tier every weekend and use a lockout till we get a clear. or we pull people thru kara to get them basic gear and then fold them into a raid team. took me about 3 months to build a guild with about 100 solid people that help out and raid together on the busieset alliance server in NA reagion. if i can do it anyone can. itll be same as wrath. find people that do the same thigns you do and make a guild. its not hard. im about as dumb as it gets with this stuff and im having a lot of fun figuring it out. and my people are patient with me cause they dont wanna do the homework either.

- - - Updated - - -

All of these points are silly to me. WotLK without LFG is going to be one of the greatest classic experiences BECAUSE of achievements. I fondly remember playing TBC and the end of vanilla and not really having a solid group of friends or guild that I played with all the time. I did some of the raids in pugs, and got heroic gear etc in TBC, but it wasn't until I started working on achievements that I really wanted to find a group of friends to do this content with. EX. Can you pug the heroic dungeon achievements? Sure, but it is a lot easier if you find a group to do them all with. These are goals that you can chase after without having to do raid content or dungeons all the time.

You act like raids and dungeons are the only form of content in the game. Do you expect people to not be interacting with each other over this? Instead of mindlessly farming heroic dungeons all day then doing your one raid a week, you have other activities to sink your teeth into and try and achieve, and while some can be done alone, a lot of them require you to do them with other people and coordinate. This involves the community.

Unfortunately I think that you will be in the vast minority on this one. I will bet that as close to 0 people as you can get will want to have achievements removed. I would actually be willing to bet that more people want DKs removed than achievements.

this ..so much this. my little guild has about 5 dungeon teams ready to go doing nothing more than chasing achievements together. its gonna be so much fun. dont wanna raid?> fuck it do some runs for achieves. regrind old classic shit for teh achieves. so much more to do. and holidays are just fun AF