Raid Rewards Experiments in Season 4

[Lumy]

Raid Rewards Experiments in Season 4

Today, we’d like to share some of our rewards plans for Season 4 regarding the acquisition and effectiveness of Raid gearing overall. As we head from 9.2’s Class Sets & Creation Catalyst into Dragonflight, our team has been doing a lot of thinking about our rewards philosophies, including acquiring loot and how it might be improved. Season 4 presents a unique opportunity for us to try some experimental changes that might be too volatile for a regular season, but could still provide us with valuable data and feedback we can use to improve the game long-term. It’s worth noting that the systems we’ll be talking about today are designed around specific goals to fit with Season 4’s shorter runtime - it’s very possible that even if they’re received well, they may undergo significant iteration to match the cadence & intended progression of a normal season of content. Regardless, we want to show that we’re interested in continuing to approach rewards from different angles, and listen to player’s desires for increased bad luck protection and making sure in-game rewards feel like they’re matching player’s efforts. Without further ado, let’s get into some specifics!

Raid Vendors & Limited Currency

Season 4 will feature a trio of broker vendors suspiciously skulking around the Great Vault. Each of these brokers has wares from one of the three Shadowlands raids: Castle Nathria, Sanctum of Domination, and the Sepulcher of the First Ones. They will sell trinkets, weapons, and other special items from their respective raid. Each of these items will have the same price: a single Puzzling Cartel Dinar each, with a catch. You will only be able to get 3 Puzzling Cartel Dinar for the entire season. After spending your last Dinar, the brokers leave town and take their wares with them. Items sold by these vendors will be at the Season 4 Normal ‘Fated’ item level range of 278-285, depending on the item.

To acquire them, enter any Shadowlands Raid after Season 4 begins to start a 3-part questline. These quests will require you to kill a certain number of unique Fated bosses while the Season 4 Raid Affix is active. The quests reward you with one Puzzling Cartel Dinar upon completion and will progress to the next part of the quest (To clarify, unique means killing the same boss during that same week won’t give credit - killing the Tarragrue on Normal and Heroic in the same week will only give 1 kill). At the moment, this is set to require 30 kills, 20 kills, and 10 kills, making your 2nd and 3rd coin come even faster as time goes on - ending up at week 3 being the earliest instance of receiving a Dinar, and week 6 being the earliest you could see the last one.

This system initially came about to mitigate the rotational nature of Season 4’s raids. Each player has fewer chances to see any individual piece of loot when Fated Sylvanas or Fated Jailer is only killable every three weeks, so we really want to see how players respond to the idea of having a limited but deterministic way to target individual pieces from raids. We all have a story of going months and months on end, killing a specific boss every week without ever seeing a desired item drop, and our hope is this goes a long way to curbing extreme bad luck in the worst cases. At the same time, we don’t want to shortcut the experience of actually playing the game - it shouldn’t be possible for someone to simply buy their Best in Slot setup from a vendor week 1 of a given season - and it’s very possible that this implementation still undercuts some of that sense of progressing your character. That said, we’ve heard calls for something like this, and feel Season 4 is the best time to try it out.

Heroic & Mythic Upgrade Items

Additionally, we’re exploring ways for Raiders to upgrade Raid loot as they move up in difficulty. In Season 4, killing bosses on Heroic or Mythic difficulty will drop a ‘shard’ of an upgrade item, and upon collecting enough (currently 20) will combine to upgrade Fated gear to their Heroic or Mythic versions respectively. Unlike the Puzzling Cartel Dinar above, which has a quest you must complete to earn them over time, these upgrade shards will begin dropping on Day 1 of the season and at a 100% droprate, allowing you to capture effort progressing week over week from the get-go. These upgrade items will work on any item with a ‘Fated’ tag, including those sold by the broker vendors previously mentioned. The upgrade system combined with the Puzzling Cartel Dinar vendors will allow players to effectively buy up to 3 pieces of Heroic or Mythic raid gear, assuming you’re doing difficult content enough to build reserves of upgrade shards to begin with.

While having a Heroic or Mythic upgrade item still requires you to have the base item drop for you in some way, this means that the option of running other raid difficulties to get your desired piece is available for people wanting to go the extra mile. Similarly, this allows guilds that start from Normal and move into Heroic, or Heroic and move into Mythic the ability to carry some of their favorite items with them as they progress. Often, if a guild can’t hit a specific breakpoint while progressing (like say a new boss kill, or a Great Vault threshold), it can feel like the time spent reclearing up to those points can be wasted effort. We hope that this creates more value for simply killing bosses with your group, while also allowing those who dip their toes into higher difficulty (like, say, a guild that can only do 3 mythic bosses per week) the ability to ‘save up’ to a moment of excitement that both rewards your effort over time, as well as making it easier to make deeper strides into achieving your raiding goals.

Season 4 is an exciting time where we’re trying lots of things WoW’s never done before, and we’re similarly excited to see how these systems play out for raiders engaging with the new Fated affixes when it all goes live. We’ll be monitoring feedback closely and answering more questions in the thread, so let us know what you think!

Dropping in to clarify a few common trends of questions I’ve seen around, then will get back to combing. I want to keep my responses to things related to the Raid rewards as outlined in the post:

What about Tier Sets?

• Your 9.2 Tier Sets are still active in Season 4, and the Creation Catalyst will remain on with all of its accumulated charges. Tier Tokens won’t be added to Castle Nathria and Sanctum of Domination, as you’ll be able to upgrade any item you get to a higher ilvl piece of Tier just like you can on live right now.

Domination Sockets

• Shards and Domination bonuses will be disabled entirely for Season 4. We didn’t want to place extra pressure on the tuning of specifically Fated Sanctum to require it, and there was enough of a class/armor type disparity at which specs/classes could potentially wear a 3-set Domination Bonus and their 4-piece vs others that it would create a weird imbalance on those weeks. We’ve also heard from player feedback that it would feel unfair for players who didn’t hold onto Domination Gear to be at such a disadvantage.

LFR/Outdoor

• Looking for Raid will have a Season 4/Fated Difficulty, and all wings will be available at the start. This is to say if the rotation begins with Castle Nathria being the Fated raid on rotation, all of LFR Nathria will be replaced with Fated LFR Nathria, at higher item levels. LFR also counts for quest progress, so players who don’t full clear a raid for the week can collect what leftover bosses they need from there.

Additionally, the World Boss related to whichever raid is currently Fated will also be scaled up - more difficult, and dropping ilvl 285 Fated gear.

Why only Weapons/Trinkets?

• As others in this thread have mentioned, neither of these systems are intended to replace the primary method by which players acquire gear - having all of an expansion’s raids be at current item level is something entirely new to WoW, and will create both a lot of powerful combinations of items, as well as a lot of frustration at not receiving them. We wanted the Vendors to be targeted at the pieces of loot we’d already seen are most impactful to a player such as to create an intense negative reaction when situations arise like the post mentions. Many players feel if they can’t get an Edge of Night, they can’t play Rogue in 9.1/9.2. Rarely do players feel they can’t play because they are missing boots or bracers. Focusing in on these higher-tier items keeps these vendors special, and the system focused on that protection, rather than being an alternative/replacement gearing method (which it is not).

Great Vault integration?

• A common idea so far is if the Great Vault tokens could integrate some of these. While we’re not interested so far in extending the amount of Dinars a player can get in the season, offering some of the heroic or mythic upgrade shards in some form could absolutely be possible, though we’d still want to make certain you can only purchase Heroic or Mythic upgrade shards if you’re actually raiding some amount on those difficulties. Not a guarantee, but not an impossibility.

[WarpAvP2]

Feels like the end of SL has turned into a testing grounds, almost like a beta or something for systems. Which I guess isn’t horrible. I might be reading it wrong but it seems that you will be able to:

+ Progressively upgrade as long as you play and put the work in.
+ Choose some cool rewards to help you out

Will there be an equivalent system for pvp?


Sounds like the “everyone will get there eventually, at their own pace” system. And do away with this hard closed bracket where mythic, heroic, and normal are seperated. Which to me is great (for me). I mainly play pvp, but this would make me want to raid mythic again.

Im tired of the endless cycle cleanses cycle. But having a system where you are micro-incremented rewards is great for me. I can play whenever and still feel improvement. Until I cap out and can focus on other things that interest me.

Again. I want a pvp variant.

[Coleslaw]

"Season 4's shorter runtime"

Interesting language there!

[OGXanos]

It's a bit rough IMO.
Drop the kill counts on the tokens, make the shards for upgrades drop at the lower difficulty. Normal drops heroic, heroic drops mythic. H for H and M for M isn't really helping anyone prog. Give mythic a 1.5x multiplier on the drops to keep it worth it.

[Kyanion]

This sounds like a good idea to get some feedback on what gearing systems players actually like and want. I know this is good for people that need to target specific trinkets or weapons and can't do that with the raids rotating from week to week.

[Natureseer]

M+ is noticeably absent from this post, though i guess they are only explaining the raid portion of the system right now. there may be a completely seperate system for m+, i guess i just thought they would be more intertwined?

[Alroxas]

M+ is noticeably absent from this post, though i guess they are only explaining the raid portion of the system right now. there may be a completely seperate system for m+, i guess i just thought they would be more intertwined?

M+ already has their system that has worked for 3 seasons already? For M+ it's probably the same moving forward.

What is omitted is whether Creation Catalyst would be able to play a role in this new raid reward system for loot from Nathria/Sanctum

- - - Updated - - -

It's a bit rough IMO.
Drop the kill counts on the tokens, make the shards for upgrades drop at the lower difficulty. Normal drops heroic, heroic drops mythic. H for H and M for M isn't really helping anyone prog. Give mythic a 1.5x multiplier on the drops to keep it worth it.

The kill count for tokens (dinars) seem fine. It helps counter the long string of "bad luck" you might get. Considering Nathria and Sanctum have 10 bosses each, it would only take 3 weeks to get the first token, then 2 weeks, then 1 week. So by week 6 you should have all 3 tokens to spend provided you do a full clear.

As for the shards, Heroic for Heroic and Mythic for Mythic seems to feed into progression mindset... granted it's a weird thing because as they are older raids, I don't see how groups would want to do "progression" for older raids.

I suppose if they were still going for mount drop from the last boss of the raid?

[kamuimac]

god they never will give up

another idiotic over convoluted system because Ion will never admit he was wrong about VP vendor removal

instead just give us normal gear vendors they are going miles and above creating another abomination that noobdy wants.

gg blizz - you are digging that hole deeper and deeper - in season that will be ignored anyway as its rehash of old content.

im just speechless how incompetent devs in blizzard are.

- - - Updated - - -

This sounds like a good idea to get some feedback on what gearing systems players actually like and want. I know this is good for people that need to target specific trinkets or weapons and can't do that with the raids rotating from week to week.

we know what system players want

we known it for past decade

players want VP vendors with multiple gear pieces and currency farmable outside of raids too. and ability to upgrade raid gear the same way mythic + players upgrade gear

but untill Ion is fired player wont get what players want.

[Kyanion]

god they never will give up

another idiotic over convoluted system because Ion will never admit he was wrong about VP vendor removal

instead just give us normal gear vendors they are going miles and above creating another abomination that noobdy wants.

gg blizz - you are digging that hole deeper and deeper - in season that will be ignored anyway as its rehash of old content.

im just speechless how incompetent devs in blizzard are.

Then don't play season 4? Do something else. At least they are trying different ideas and want feedback on them. VP isn't the answer either.

- - - Updated - - -

we know what system players want

we known it for past decade

players want VP vendors with multiple gear pieces and currency farmable outside of raids too. and ability to upgrade raid gear the same way mythic + players upgrade gear

but untill Ion is fired player wont get what players want.

You don't speak for this player. I don't want the old VP system back.

[glowpipe]

god they never will give up

another idiotic over convoluted system because Ion will never admit he was wrong about VP vendor removal

instead just give us normal gear vendors they are going miles and above creating another abomination that noobdy wants.

gg blizz - you are digging that hole deeper and deeper - in season that will be ignored anyway as its rehash of old content.

im just speechless how incompetent devs in blizzard are.

- - - Updated - - -



we know what system players want

we known it for past decade

players want VP vendors with multiple gear pieces and currency farmable outside of raids too. and ability to upgrade raid gear the same way mythic + players upgrade gear

but untill Ion is fired player wont get what players want.

How is this a convoluted system? It litteraly happens in the background as you play normaly. We have a rogue in our guild now who still doesn't have a weapon. Not from m+, raiding or weekly chest. He would have had a coin to buy a dagger already. This system is perfect

[erifwodahs]

M+ already has their system that has worked for 3 seasons already? For M+ it's probably the same moving forward.

What is omitted is whether Creation Catalyst would be able to play a role in this new raid reward system for loot from Nathria/Sanctum

But it doesn't really. First of all, you are literally farming same items every season, "I got this item 12 months ago, now I need the same item again" and more importantly guess what are the chances to get my Blood Scale trinket from vault? at any given week in the vault? We have 10 dungeons, 4 bosses on average, and lets say each boss can drop me 4 items on average, so my loot pool is 160 items and you get 3 slots. In raid you have much smaller loot pool and you can also get items traded to you AND you get the vault so your chances to get your item at max ilvl is much bigger.

[Royru]

Feels like the end of SL has turned into a testing grounds, almost like a beta or something for systems. Which I guess isn’t horrible. I might be reading it wrong but it seems that you will be able to:

+ Progressively upgrade as long as you play and put the work in.
+ Choose some cool rewards to help you out

Will there be an equivalent system for pvp?


Sounds like the “everyone will get there eventually, at their own pace” system. And do away with this hard closed bracket where mythic, heroic, and normal are seperated. Which to me is great (for me). I mainly play pvp, but this would make me want to raid mythic again.

Im tired of the endless cycle cleanses cycle. But having a system where you are micro-incremented rewards is great for me. I can play whenever and still feel improvement. Until I cap out and can focus on other things that interest me.

Again. I want a pvp variant.

What do you mean by a pvp variant? Pvp will already have its new system in dragon flight so there’s nothing to test

Edit:

Also as for thetopic of the post. Why in gods name do they dodge around the badge system so hard?

ITS SUCH A PERFECT SYSTEM JUST BRING BACK THE BADGE SYSTEM

[Chickat]

"Season 4's shorter runtime"

Interesting language there!

Yep. Guessing 7 months for 9.2 and 4 for 9.2.5.

So expansion in February maybe?

[Relapses]

lmfao to all the WotLK Andy's having a whinge because it isn't a badge vendor.

Badge vendors are never coming back. Play WotLK Classic if you enjoy playing a shopping list simulator. In the meantime, this system owns hard. Can't wait for S4.

[Chickat]

Then don't play season 4? Do something else. At least they are trying different ideas and want feedback on them. VP isn't the answer either.

- - - Updated - - -



You don't speak for this player. I don't want the old VP system back.

I disagree. Valor could be used for both.

Bring back item upgrades. Items can upgrade 4 times 3 ilev each 250 valor each so a normal raid peice can essentially become almost a heroic raid peice. The gear vendors can still leave after 3 items. If they want it to take 6 weeks, the first item can cost 3000 valor. 2nd 2000 and 3rd 1000.

Although I could see them just making item upgrades valor and still having gear token coins so you can upgrade and buy gear at the same time.

Good ideas but we don't need 2 new currencies and it doesn't have to be so complicated.

[kamuimac]

How is this a convoluted system? It litteraly happens in the background as you play normaly. We have a rogue in our guild now who still doesn't have a weapon. Not from m+, raiding or weekly chest. He would have had a coin to buy a dagger already. This system is perfect

this system offers exackly 0 gear progression for casual players.

it offers 0 gear progression outside of pick your 3 most bis pieces and use this system to craft it.

liek you said - it happens in background yoou cannot actively do anything to grind it.

you an just passively gain it as longas your guild is capable of killing many bosses in timely manner

if your guild is not so good = tough luck it will provide you 0 help with progress.

this shows perfeckly how casual unfriendly design of Dragonflight will be.

its terryfiing how out of touch with players they are

another system benefit 1 % and alienating 99 % .

[Relapses]

I disagree. Valor could be used for both.

Bring back item upgrades. Items can upgrade 4 times 3 ilev each 250 valor each so a normal raid peice can essentially become almost a heroic raid peice. The gear vendors can still leave after 3 items. If they want it to take 6 weeks, the first item can cost 3000 valor. 2nd 2000 and 3rd 1000.

Although I could see them just making item upgrades valor and still having gear token coins so you can upgrade and buy gear at the same time.

Good ideas but we don't need 2 new currencies and it doesn't have to be so complicated.

You do realize that a core part of this new system is upgrading items via the shards, right? Like, you're asking them to bring something back that... they literally just brought back.

- - - Updated - - -

this system offers exackly 0 gear progression for casual players.

it offers 0 gear progression outside of pick your 3 most bis pieces and use this system to craft it.

liek you said - it happens in background yoou cannot actively do anything to grind it.

you an just passively gain it as longas your guild is capable of killing many bosses in timely manner

if your guild is not so good = tough luck it will provide you 0 help with progress.

this shows perfeckly how casual unfriendly design of Dragonflight will be.

its terryfiing how out of touch with players they are

another system benefit 1 % and alienating 99 % .

You won't be happy until you get a free set of Mythic gear by logging into WoW. This is an improvement over the current system for anybody who actively raids and provides a deterministic option that hasn't (ever) existed.

[Royru]

lmfao to all the WotLK Andy's having a whinge because it isn't a badge vendor.

Badge vendors are never coming back. Play WotLK Classic if you enjoy playing a shopping list simulator. In the meantime, this system owns hard. Can't wait for S4.

I will be playing both but if you’re going to act like they aren’t attempting to reinvent the badge system with this while also making it 9x more complicated and 9x more restrictive then you’re just kidding yourself.

Unless you didn’t read how the system works at all that is.

[Relapses]

I will be playing both but if you’re going to act like they aren’t attempting to reinvent the badge system with this while also making it 9x more complicated and 9x more restrictive then you’re just kidding yourself.

Unless you didn’t read how the system works at all that is.

It's not "more complicated" for no reason. It's designed the way it is so that people don't do degenerate shit like, I don't know, farm 1,000 M0s for badges then turn around and buy Mythic-quality gear from the vendor. You have to actually play the game and raid to take advantage of its benefits. That's how these systems should work.

[Royru]

It's not "more complicated" for no reason. It's designed the way it is so that people don't do degenerate shit like, I don't know, farm 1,000 M0s for badges then turn around and buy Mythic-quality gear from the vendor. You have to actually play the game and raid to take advantage of its benefits. That's how these systems should work.

That’s not how the badge system works. Do you understand how the badge system works?