Is it time to end gear gatekeeping?

[ellieg]

Can agree on first point, not really on the second. The (or at least mine) point is not "if it's easy, you can do X instead". It's "people don't care about the content and just do the easier stuff". Which is pretty evident with the current system.

It's always relative to something else. I can agree that higher ilvl weapons are an upgrade but it's a sidegrade in most cases and trinkets are not always better - there are plenty M+ ones (not really in this tier, but was the case before) that are BiS also for raids. Ilvl unfortunately is not the end-all (my HC sylvanas dagger is the BiS due to the proc and the only better option is the Mythic version).

Mythic raids should reward 285 for every single boss if compared to M+. It's another scale of difficulty not much due to the fights themselves but to the effort of mantaining a 20 people roster.

Taking the opposite point of view about the "redundancy", i'd put it in this way: if we already get high ilvl loot from M+ compared to Mythic, where's the issue in adding it on Open World content? Again, i fully agree it needs not to be "log in for your free reward".

It's fun how WoD was criticized for its "raid or die" mentality (but raids were awesome) and the game is just the same right now and people actually want it to stay like this. Maybe it's me that is seeing things that don't exist, but i think the actual request is to add to the open world more relvant activities to tackle on. Think about Thorghast but gives you relevant gear related to the difficulty levels.

Because mythic raids overall are the hardest. Thays why you get 285 ilvl loot from final 3 bosses, guaranteed 278/285 in vault, and on average 2 278s and 1 285 on a full clear. Making it the most lucrative way to earn 278s as well as only way to earn 285s.

M+15s is the next best gearing. Doing 1 a week gives u 1 278 piece in the vault. Id argue 15s are roughly the same difficulty as early heroic encounters. This gives heroic raiders a good opportunity to get a big vault upgrade. Its also the reason m+15 drops 262s compared to 265 from raids. Valor is capped first half of season and allows u to gain a 272 every 2 weeks from upgrading a 262 from the m+15.

The lower m+ are tied with normal raids which is why their ilvls are lower.

Then at the bottom are wqs and lfrs which is why they have the lowest ilvl.

If you're gonna argue that wqs should give highest ilvl, then what's the point?

Solo activities will never be as rewarding as group activities in an mmo.

[Thes]

early wow was about gear chasing. If you're chasing gear and not getting paid for it at this point, you've played yourself. I'm not chasing shit anymore. If there's a tier that i like (aesthetically speaking), I'm not chasing it, I'm buying the runs until i have it. I give two shits and a fuck about mechanics or difficulty anymore, there's no reason to ever sink that kind of time into a game that you're not making money from.

Bruh you sink the time in because you want to overcome the challenge

I think you should start a business instead of playing wow

[Lathspell]

Because mythic raids overall are the hardest. Thays why you get 285 ilvl loot from final 3 bosses, guaranteed 278/285 in vault, and on average 2 278s and 1 285 on a full clear. Making it the most lucrative way to earn 278s as well as only way to earn 285s.

M+15s is the next best gearing. Doing 1 a week gives u 1 278 piece in the vault. Id argue 15s are roughly the same difficulty as early heroic encounters. This gives heroic raiders a good opportunity to get a big vault upgrade. Its also the reason m+15 drops 262s compared to 265 from raids. Valor is capped first half of season and allows u to gain a 272 every 2 weeks from upgrading a 262 from the m+15.

The lower m+ are tied with normal raids which is why their ilvls are lower.

Then at the bottom are wqs and lfrs which is why they have the lowest ilvl.

If you're gonna argue that wqs should give highest ilvl, then what's the point?

Solo activities will never be as rewarding as group activities in an mmo.

I think the best way is the one that for example Naguura said in her latest video. Just make heroic drop 278 and tune it for that gear level.Mythic could be ilvl normalized with only cosmetic rewards. This would even allow doing old mythic raids for the cosmetics later. It would also eliminate the need for splits in mythic raiding.

[ellieg]

I think the best way is the one that for example Naguura said in her latest video. Just make heroic drop 278 and tune it for that gear level.Mythic could be ilvl normalized with only cosmetic rewards. This would even allow doing old mythic raids for the cosmetics later. It would also eliminate the need for splits in mythic raiding.

I dont agree. I think the better solution is keep 265 in heroic. Make it upgradeable to 272 with valor after a certain achieve. Give 278 rewards from vault for doing heroic. Makes heroic raid on par with ppl doing m+15s. Still gives mythic raid a place for ppl to gear faster and slightly higher

[Echocho]

I dont agree. I think the better solution is keep 265 in heroic. Make it upgradeable to 272 with valor after a certain achieve. Give 278 rewards from vault for doing heroic. Makes heroic raid on par with ppl doing m+15s. Still gives mythic raid a place for ppl to gear faster and slightly higher

That actually sounds worse than any other suggestion

[Lathspell]

I dont agree. I think the better solution is keep 265 in heroic. Make it upgradeable to 272 with valor after a certain achieve. Give 278 rewards from vault for doing heroic. Makes heroic raid on par with ppl doing m+15s. Still gives mythic raid a place for ppl to gear faster and slightly higher

This would be a nice alternative too, even if I support the one where mythic is there for challenge and cosmetics, with no need to gear for it.

[ellieg]

That actually sounds worse than any other suggestion

Why do you feel that? Mythic raid being cosmetic only would absolutely kill it

[Lathspell]

Why do you feel that? Mythic raid being cosmetic only would absolutely kill it

It would only kill it for those in it for the max ilvl gear. The ones who want to beat hard content for the challenge would still do it surely.

[Coldkil]

Solo activities will never be as rewarding as group activities in an mmo.

I think this is the breakpoint. And again i agree but only to a point.

I think the timing of the rewards has also a point to exist. It's different to have the 262/272 from WQ available from day 1 or 3 months in with a progressive upgrade. And it's a limited pool of generic gear/trinkets so very likely your BiS will stay in M+/raid and Mythic will still reward the best gear as before.

That's why i don't see many issues - progression won't be touched by open world content that gets actually competitive 2 and a half months after the patch launched. Chances are if you're an active player you don't even need to get those rewards.

I can see really clearly your points though. What i don't get (because i don't really care about it in the end) is why some people get mad at the fact some random guy gets higher ilvl gear much later in the patch than them and it's not even on par with the gear from M+/raid. 9.2 seems to be working fine, just the upgrades stop too soon imho (not in terms of timing, just ilvl).

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I dont agree. I think the better solution is keep 265 in heroic. Make it upgradeable to 272 with valor after a certain achieve. Give 278 rewards from vault for doing heroic. Makes heroic raid on par with ppl doing m+15s. Still gives mythic raid a place for ppl to gear faster and slightly higher

I agree with this. While i like the idea to have Mythic as a "challenging bubble" i also think many players would just be alienated form the game. In the end, it's not the top tier of raiding that needs much fixes but the middle ground that suffers from the very appealing system M+ have.

[loras]

Yeah it's one of the few situations where I think Blizzard were somewhat to blame - it's not that I don't want players to have access to gear, not at all, it's that at the time, we had no clear measure of a players actual ability, other than asking for achievements and inspecting.

It only really impacts pugs, so I'm not crying about it, it was just a reality for a lot of raid leaders - they picked people for pretty straightforward content based on straightforward measures like ilvl, only to find out the player had farmed mindless content endlessly to obtain an ilvl that FAR exceeded their skill level. And blizzard encouraged that, imo.

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Agreed, see above.

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Why though? What is your issue with the gap being where it is now? Not explaining how "big" the gap is, but why do you think that's a problem and needs solving?

The issue is an uneven playing field, undermining the very concept of a game.
WoW has always had a somewhat rocky playing field in that sense due to the balance between classes being iffy at the best of times, but this gear noneense compounds it.

By reducing the gap between the best and the worst you enable people to stop caring about it so much, in addition to punishing alts less; see Legion's pvp template in example.

"Git gud" morons aside there really is no point to a virtual game where you have to trudge through literally unfair / uneven fights just to get to the point where you can have fun in a fair fight.

If you fail to get that sweet spot right you just make "gearless" alternatives ("loadout" games) seem all the better; you actually undermine the rpg aspect.

[ellieg]

I think this is the breakpoint. And again i agree but only to a point.

I think the timing of the rewards has also a point to exist. It's different to have the 262/272 from WQ available from day 1 or 3 months in with a progressive upgrade. And it's a limited pool of generic gear/trinkets so very likely your BiS will stay in M+/raid and Mythic will still reward the best gear as before.

That's why i don't see many issues - progression won't be touched by open world content that gets actually competitive 2 and a half months after the patch launched. Chances are if you're an active player you don't even need to get those rewards.

I can see really clearly your points though. What i don't get (because i don't really care about it in the end) is why some people get mad at the fact some random guy gets higher ilvl gear much later in the patch than them and it's not even on par with the gear from M+/raid. 9.2 seems to be working fine, just the upgrades stop too soon imho (not in terms of timing, just ilvl).

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I agree with this. While i like the idea to have Mythic as a "challenging bubble" i also think many players would just be alienated form the game. In the end, it's not the top tier of raiding that needs much fixes but the middle ground that suffers from the very appealing system M+ have.

I think a lot of the pushback, for me at least, is ilvl has always been related to the content u did. Used to be used as a rough way to measure their experience. Its definitely been eroded away tho. Like if u are doing X content, you'd look for ppl with at least Y ilvl cause you know they had to do X-1 content to get to that point.

With cypher and normal raids getting ppl to 252-255 overall ilvl, thats sorta the new minimum. I can expect that ppl higher than those ilvls have done a little extra and are more likely to get an invite from me. Theres other tools now like rating / rio but I think that's where my particular pushback stems from.

Also, ilvl is a flex. Being higher on the meters is a flex, and higher ilvls make that easier. Its selfish, but I imagine a very large group of ppl push harder content specifically for this reason

[potis]

I can see really clearly your points though. What i don't get (because i don't really care about it in the end) is why some people get mad at the fact some random guy gets higher ilvl gear much later in the patch than them and it's not even on par with the gear from M+/raid. 9.2 seems to be working fine, just the upgrades stop too soon imho (not in terms of timing, just ilvl).

Apart from a few weirdos that keep spamming that, there arent that many, eithe side has a few mega bad apples.

But the problem isnt the getting the gear, its the complete refusal of discussion about the matter, which mainly is attributed to lack of knowledge about the game for whatever reason.

"Okay, you can have your Mythic Gear with Valor Points after Hall of Fame gets done"

"No, i want it from the start cause i pay 15$"

"You pay 15$ to access the server, not to get free gear"

"Yes but this game and that game and the other game do that"

"Then go play those games"

"YOU ELITIST SCUMBAG THAT THINKS PIXELS MATTER, DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY I MAKE AND HOW MANY KIDS I HAVE AND MY 25 DOGS THAT I HAVE TO FEED EVERY DAY"

Thats obviously a joking example but at least 20% of mmo-champion posters requesting this are like that, like the guy quoting me few pages back about his job and money.

And then you have other people that play those other games, those games arent good enough for whatever reason, and they demand that WoW changes 180 degrees and offers the same thing (usually a story mode) or they will stop playing like anyone gives a fuck.

And then you have live experiences, if my ex-gf could raid and get AOTC while losing the camera multiple times during the fight, and even do 80% parses as a BM Hunter (What else xD) there is no excuse someone claiming they have played since the start cant do it, and many more IRL examples.

The excuses are just weak, thats why i cant take mmo-champion posters seriously, its full of lies, delusion and bad players, cause everyone thinks we are all the same, that we live in some remote city, and we dont know anyone, without friends or w/e.

I mentored or played/grew up with over 100-200 people in WoW in IRL cause of net cafe culture the last 17 years, with having hundreds others i never spoke to or know, play at all levels of the game, i saw live how people learn, change and improve, there is just no excuse.

There is only refusal to engage at basic concepts of the game, thats all it ends up being, and frankly it comes back to, "I dont care how much you cry, the game is a joke up to 90% of its content, i cant take you seriously cause i know people that cant even use their mouse correctly that can clear Normal raids"

[Coldkil]

Also, ilvl is a flex. Being higher on the meters is a flex, and higher ilvls make that easier. Its selfish, but I imagine a very large group of ppl push harder content specifically for this reason

Yeah, totally. There's a reason why quite a lot of people (or maybe the more noisy ones) are so against less difference in ilvl overall between players. That's why i always mention the time windows and try to be sure i explain myself at best. I'm not saying it's not a valid reason. Just something that since i cannot relate much with i simply fail to understand why it's important. So i discuss with people who have views opposite than mine cause i have zero interest in being in a circle where everyone just agrees and no improvement happens.

Back on topic, it am pretty biased about being able to gear alts in a more relaxed way but mantaining the unlocks i have on my main - something like "you can upgrade WQ rewards with Valor to X ilvl if you unlocked it for your account via KSM achievements" would probably make me happy and i wouldn't care much about the rest. Just to say that everyone has its own ideal structure and may be good for someone but surely not for everyone.

[ellieg]

Yeah, totally. There's a reason why quite a lot of people (or maybe the more noisy ones) are so against less difference in ilvl overall between players. That's why i always mention the time windows and try to be sure i explain myself at best. I'm not saying it's not a valid reason. Just something that since i cannot relate much with i simply fail to understand why it's important. So i discuss with people who have views opposite than mine cause i have zero interest in being in a circle where everyone just agrees and no improvement happens.

Back on topic, it am pretty biased about being able to gear alts in a more relaxed way but mantaining the unlocks i have on my main - something like "you can upgrade WQ rewards with Valor to X ilvl if you unlocked it for your account via KSM achievements" would probably make me happy and i wouldn't care much about the rest. Just to say that everyone has its own ideal structure and may be good for someone but surely not for everyone.

I have split feeling on the account unlocks. I play a few alts as well and its frustrating redoing stuff. But on the other hand, just because I get ksm on my resto druid, im unsure if thats enough justification to get everything on my frost dk. With my limited playtime of only doing 1 or so m+ weekly per char, valor is scarce to me and im best off saving it to use on a 262 piece. I only pug, so by the time im getting 262s, I prob have 2k rating already so it admittedly doesn't affect me much.

[Coldkil]

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I can feel this because at some point (i think at the start of Legion, which i started late due to IRL) i kinda did the same stunt. I just plain refused to do M+ cause i found them boring and i hated the gearing competition with the raids which is hands down my preferrred content in WoW.

It took some time to me but in SL i am regularly getting my KSM for the mount and because in the end it's just better for me for gearing. Even if i limit myself to HC (cause i don't have the time available to commit to Mythic, nor i'm a CE player) me and friends found that most people now play the raid to kill the bosses one time and then just be done with it. I was just used to farm raids and having fun with friends, and since M+ is pug territory for the most part, it's just not as appealing.

But now i'm pretty much used to it and i can basically do better at the game. Sometimes if we really like the game at its core (despite all the flaws) we also try to understand why and how it has to be played. I'm fine with parsing 70-75ish in boss fight as a 268 rogue.

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I have split feeling on the account unlocks. I play a few alts as well and its frustrating redoing stuff. But on the other hand, just because I get ksm on my resto druid, im unsure if thats enough justification to get everything on my frost dk. With my limited playtime of only doing 1 or so m+ weekly per char, valor is scarce to me and im best off saving it to use on a 262 piece. I only pug, so by the time im getting 262s, I prob have 2k rating already so it admittedly doesn't affect me much.

Yeah, it's my same train of thoughts. On one side i want to play properly my class and earn things, on the other i say "but i have already done this" and would like to have things readily available.

[Aydinx2]

6. Its just a game
7. I dont want a second job
8. I COULD do mythic, but no one will invite me even though im better than them
9. Im a multi glad world first raider but I have a kid now

1. It is just a game, but the quality of the game decreases if the rewards lose value (by making them easier to get).
2. You can easily get high gear without much time spent playing.
3. Are you? What is your ilvl and M+ rating? Class and spec? There are plenty of reasons people don't get invited to a group. Maybe start your own group?
4. Ok, and? So you decided to get a kid and now the game needs to become worse because of it?

[potis]

I can feel this because at some point (i think at the start of Legion, which i started late due to IRL) i kinda did the same stunt. I just plain refused to do M+ cause i found them boring and i hated the gearing competition with the raids which is hands down my preferrred content in WoW.

It took some time to me but in SL i am regularly getting my KSM for the mount and because in the end it's just better for me for gearing. Even if i limit myself to HC (cause i don't have the time available to commit to Mythic, nor i'm a CE player) me and friends found that most people now play the raid to kill the bosses one time and then just be done with it. I was just used to farm raids and having fun with friends, and since M+ is pug territory for the most part, it's just not as appealing.

But now i'm pretty much used to it and i can basically do better at the game. Sometimes if we really like the game at its core (despite all the flaws) we also try to understand why and how it has to be played. I'm fine with parsing 70-75ish in boss fight as a 268 rogue.

Yeah, but thats the thing, you play the game correctly, aka with others, and set a limit for yourself, the same way i have done, and it works out, cause we have the brain to accept/set our limits within the game.

These people dont, there is a massive delusion going on, and they reach "Karen" levels of demands, thats why they cant be taken seriously, thats all it comes down too.

As example your request/discussion about giving higher gear after a certain point, is acceptable and something i thought also, i dont see any reason to unlock Valor gain as they did 2 months ago, without unlocking the 2500 M+ point requirement, at least make it account wide, so i partially agree that a change would be good for everyone, but it also creates the problem i told you before.

If they announce this from the start, why would the average Billy sub at the patch day, and not the day it gets released, play 1 month and be done? Thats a loss of $ for the company.

And thats what it comes down too, what change causes what % of players to get affected and how much $ they will lose by this change.

You see it on here multiple times "LOL I JUST SUB AT PATCH X.3 OR X.2.5 DO THE QUESTS IN 1 MONTH AND UNSUB, WHICH RETARD PLAYS 2 YEARS LOL".

[Aydinx2]

It would only kill it for those in it for the max ilvl gear. The ones who want to beat hard content for the challenge would still do it surely.

You say this as if that isn't a bad thing.
Casual players already get way too much high ilvl gear and tier sets without doing any content that you can't queue for. Why remove the reason to play for a lot of people just to give casuals even more rewards?

Giving tier set in LFR was already insane, now they get it from the catalyst where they don't even have to do a dungeon/raid to get it. For what? To do a world quest faster?

[Coldkil]

You see it on here multiple times "LOL I JUST SUB AT PATCH X.3 OR X.2.5 DO THE QUESTS IN 1 MONTH AND UNSUB, WHICH RETARD PLAYS 2 YEARS LOL".

Agree with everything and especially this last point.

I started 9.2 two months late due to IRL. And damn if it wasn't a better experience - much faster, more streamlined and a nice flow of upgrades that let me get into M+ and raids in no time.

This kind of experience should be baseline and not happening two months in the patch. With actual additional stuff to do over time - so, as you said, people don't get done in a month and leave (though most competitive players in the end play like this - or better, spend the rest of the patch boosting people for gold so they can pay the debts they made for the race XD).

[facefist]

Further, the only reason to have M Raid gear is to do M Raids and high keys... which people who don't do those things have no use for anyway.

It's like buying a lifted off-road vehicle to commute in NYC.

Exactly. The only reason for those people who don't need the gear to cry is that their ego is for some reason hurt. Why would they otherwise care if someone has better gear if it doesn't affect their gameplay?