The Boys

[Koriani]

I'm not forgetting that. But he's also the child of Homelander's rape. Narratively, he could really be anything: fully supportive of Ryan because of his wife, or full on hatred of Ryan because of Homelander.

The Boys, here, wanted to tread the line with him not being able to fully love and support Ryan (IE, why he pushes him away midway through the season)....but then when the finale comes, Butcher acts like he's been in the "fully supportive because of his wife" mode the whole time. He hasn't. If they wanted to continue to tread that line, he'd try and protect Ryan, but not let it stop him from SB and him trying to take out Homelander. And if Ryan gets hurt, much like if Hughie were to get hurt, Butcher would regret it and feel guilt, but justify the ends of ending Homelander.

This also puts the narrative onus on Homelander, on whether he'll be reckless enough that he'll hurt Ryan to get away. It can redeem him or make him wholly a villain based on his reaction. That's a much more interesting story. Butcher should be grey, Homelander needs to be an extreme at one end or the other - Superman or what Homelander becomes.

I get what you are saying - and almost fully agree with it. I do agree the 'last second switch' of Butcher in the "climax" of the season definitely felt unearned and a "wha?" moment in the writing. I also agree that the assumption everyone was making, that the child of Homelander, wouldn't be able to survive *most* of what was going on in that building, was also 'bad writing'. The only caveat I'd say here is that - at least in regards to the power SB was releasing - a power they *believed* would stop Homelander, its not a big leap to then think/believe it would harm Ryan, IF the expectation was it would harm Homelander. (But only /that one power/ I could buy would be seen as the threat, not everyone else's).

The only real thing I "disagree" withn(and even that is a harsh word lol) is your description of Butcher "being unable to fully love and support" Ryan as to 'why' he pushes him away after the start of the season. Because I saw that scene as Butcher doing what was "best" for the kid, and NOT for Butcher or because of his own issues. I saw him pushing Ryan away as an act of protection (from Butcher), because, and I believe Butcher says this directly at one point, he was afraid every time he (Butcher) visited Ryan he just exposed his location for Homelander to discover. At that juncture Butcher believed Ryan's location was protected/unknown from Homelander and no longer felt it worth the risk to Ryan to keep visiting that way.

Now, of course, the way they write Butcher - Butcher couldn't be honest and just tell the kid that - but had to do it in an asshole way. (because direct communication would be the ending of most tv shows - lol) But that Butcher didn't bail on the kid because of his own personal demons, or resentments to Ryan about his mom, etc. But only and entirely because Butcher wanted to keep Ryan's location secret. So in Butcher's mind (for the end of the season reactions) he never stopped protecting Ryan, he just felt he could only do it from a distance.

But I also agree it was all a mess of a "not earned and still not paying out" finale. There were upteen ways they could have made the attempt to protect Ryan and NOT turn on SB to do it, or not end up with Butcher defending Homelander to do it. But the writers didn't go any of those ways. THIS was the crux, the crisis, they clearly wanted to ramp up to for next season. They just didn't go about it very well.

And I'm not sold Ryan is "full evil" with that smirk of a smile at the end of the finale' episode. I do agree they are setting Ryan up to be a "Which way does he ultimately fall - good or bad" question character - but I'm not sold that they've already fully committed him to the dark/Narcissist. I expect him to show favoritism for the Homelander Way - as long as the public Ryan's exposed to continues to show that support/applause/adoration for Homelander's actions that he saw right then, in that moment. And to be honest, that is a natural and logical position of any child to that sort of reward/consequence - if their (the child's) selfishness is applauded, they will continue to engage in the behavior, and see nothing 'wrong' with it. Morality lessons don't happen in a vacuum. However, I also fully expect at some point Ryan will be asked (By Homelander or maybe by Vaught) to do something he just WONT do - and at that point - their 'break' will happen and Ryan will get redemption and then go work for 'the good guys' instead and/or then try to navigate a line between "good" and "saving his father". I don't at all believe the writers (of the tv show) will leave Ryan to go evil, stay evil. There's no meat on that storyline.

I still enjoyed this season though, despite the 'pointless' storyline for some of the minor characters that went nowhere and the not-so-great climax 'ending' of the season. The journey to get to that point though was still fun and we were still entertained by all the episodes. Just hope there's better development (or an actual ending) for some of those hanging-plot-pointless-characters next season and that we get a well-written lead up and 'climax scenes' at the ending, whether its a series or just a season ender, next year.

[deenman]

I'm not forgetting that. But he's also the child of Homelander's rape

do we even know this for a fact?homlander is clearly a bad guy but he was never shown to act this way,the show is different from the comics

[TrollHunter3000]

I think the non-believable part is how close Butcher became to Ryan. It just strains credulity that he'd give up a decade-long quest to kill Homelander on the off-chance that Ryan MIGHT get hurt. That Ryan gets hurt isn't even a certainty, he's suped up.

He made a promise to his dying wife. You obviously don't have any understanding his character at all if you think he's going to break that.

I think Ryan choosing Homelander was kind of odd though and doesn't really make sense. His mom hated him and her death was essentially the fault of the other woman Homelander used to try and replace his mother with.

[Koriani]

do we even know this for a fact?homlander is clearly a bad guy but he was never shown to act this way,the show is different from the comics

Yes, I believe they show it in a flashback scene - first season. I don't remember the episode number but I do remember some sort of flashback scene of Homelander raping Butcher's wife (that was very clear), and that Ryan is the child of that rape. This was definitely established in the show. (I've never read a word of the comic so the only reason I'd ever know that at all was from the show.)

[deenman]

Yes, I believe they show it in a flashback scene - first season. I don't remember the episode number but I do remember some sort of flashback scene of Homelander raping Butcher's wife (that was very clear), and that Ryan is the child of that rape. This was definitely established in the show. (I've never read a word of the comic so the only reason I'd ever know that at all was from the show.)

we only saw her leaving a room with an encounter with homelander,i dont see how that confirms a rape,he always loved maive(in his twisted way),and wanted kids with her,homelander is a child mentaly and has a god complex,i dont think he would ever care about some random normal human,i always suspected there was something more about that encounter

[Koriani]

He made a promise to his dying wife. You obviously don't have any understanding his character at all if you think he's going to break that.

I think Ryan choosing Homelander was kind of odd though and doesn't really make sense. His mom hated him and her death was essentially the fault of the other woman Homelander used to try and replace his mother with.

To me - it DID make sense why Ryan "chose" Homelander - but only if you really think about all that Ryan's gone through and the need for a child (all children) to feel they are loved by a parent. (I'm also use to seeing kids/teens strongly attach to whomever comes around to 'be that parent' through my line of work - so it may not be all that 'surprising' to me - it happens IRL.) Ryan got that love from his mom - but his mom is now gone. A death that Ryan, absolutely, blames himself for. His 'father figure' Butcher - ditches him in a supremely horrible and soul-crushing way. Reinforcing Ryan's own fears about being guilty for his mom's death and making Ryan feel its all his fault for being abandoned by the man who he saw as a Father, and the last adult parent-model he had. His "Aunt" was a caregiver and babysitter but, with her own issues, was certainly not providing the loving/supportive parent Ryan was needing to help him to heal.

So hear comes Homelander. A man Ryan knows is his father. A man Ryan only knows - sideways - is a 'bad person' (but no real understanding as to 'why' he's evil - he's never been told or shown, his mother was too protective and no one's actually told or explained it to him.) But this "bad person" is standing there saying all the right and loving things Ryan expects from a father. A 'bad man but Father' is there telling him its NOT his fault, telling him he understands, telling him the rules are different (what kid doesn't want to hear that), telling him he loves him and he will *always* love him. Telling Ryan he could leave behind this life Ryan doesn't want, isolated and alone and unloved, for a life that promises a loving Father and everything else he wants. Ryan doesn't know enough to know how 'bad' Homelander really is, nor does he understand about people and the world enough to know the promises are empty and that life doesn't work like that. He responds as almost every child/teenager would - and he goes with the person he desperately WANTS to believe is really who he says he is. He follows the one guy who is LEFT for him to follow. The way I see kids IRL, and how this all works, I see it as almost impossible for Ryan to NOT make that choice, in that moment. It would take wisdom beyond his years for him to turn away from what he sees as the possible "last loving parent" he could have, and walk away. Butcher, by abandoning Ryan the way he did, basically serves Ryan up on a silver platter to Homelander (or any strong male figure who came along saying the right words).

How could a kid, who is now an orphan and 'trapped' - say no? They wouldn't.

[Skizzit]

He made a promise to his dying wife. You obviously don't have any understanding his character at all if you think he's going to break that.

I think Ryan choosing Homelander was kind of odd though and doesn't really make sense. His mom hated him and her death was essentially the fault of the other woman Homelander used to try and replace his mother with.

Ryan is just a kid and while we know as the audience that it isn't true, he still blames himself for his mother's death. It was Ryan losing control of his powers when he tried to stop Stormchaser that actually killed Becca. So from his point of view, he has two choices. Go with the guy who was unable to protect his mom or go with the guy who also has superpowers and can teach Ryan how to use them to protect himself and those he loves. Makes total sense that Ryan would go to Homelander.

[eschatological]

do we even know this for a fact?homlander is clearly a bad guy but he was never shown to act this way,the show is different from the comics

Becca literally said Homelander raped her in s2.

[deenman]

Becca literally said Homelander raped her in s2.

i tottaly dont remeber that,and i cant find a clip,if maybe somehow you remember ep and time?
also from looking around reddit(my memory isnt the best),people seem to claim that she just gave in to his advances,be it out of fear or other reasons,like mallory told soldier boy,that women only say yes to them because they are afraid

[Nymrohd]

i tottaly dont remeber that,and i cant find a clip,if maybe somehow you remember ep and time?
also from looking around reddit(my memory isnt the best),people seem to claim that she just gave in to his advances,be it out of fear or other reasons,like mallory told soldier boy,that women only say yes to them because they are afraid

That's rape. If you say yes because you feel the alternative is getting killed, that's rape. You cannot consent under duress.

[deenman]

That's rape. If you say yes because you feel the alternative is getting killed, that's rape. You cannot consent under duress.

tehnicaly yes,but homelander is a child,in his mind chicks just drop their panties for him left and right,and its not duress from his point,he just hits on them normaly i asume,doesnt threaten

[MCMLXXXII]

Still doesn't make it less rape

[Koriani]

tehnicaly yes,but homelander is a child,in his mind chicks just drop their panties for him left and right,and its not duress from his point,he just hits on them normaly i asume,doesnt threaten

And no technical about it. He raped her.

Consent under duress - spoken or not - is still rape.

And Homelander Is NOT a Child. He isn't mentally impaired like that. He's a full grown adult with at least an average IQ and the show doesn't portray him as anything else. A Narcissist (which is what he is) is still an adult. So are psychopaths (Homelander is one). It doesn't matter if the dude "thinks" everyone wants him and tons of women drop their panties for him. Doesnt' matter if the dude believes "she really wanted it no matter what she says." Its still Rape.

Why are you making excuses for a character who is clearly the biggest villian/bad-guy of the show? You know, the guy who eye-explodes people for zippo reason and is fine with letting a plane full of people die. But oh - he's not bad enough to be a rapist? Are you kidding me? Why does it matter to you so much?

The fact that anyone is victim blaming when it is quite obvious the writers are saying "She was Raped by Homelander" (and the show doesn't even attempt to present another view other than she was raped; ignoring the MORE amount of rape in the actual comic) is disturbing to me - if not surprising.

[eschatological]

i tottaly dont remeber that,and i cant find a clip,if maybe somehow you remember ep and time?
also from looking around reddit(my memory isnt the best),people seem to claim that she just gave in to his advances,be it out of fear or other reasons,like mallory told soldier boy,that women only say yes to them because they are afraid

About 20 minutes into s2e3, Becca says Homelander doesn't get to be Ryan's father, "after what you did." Then, 57 minutes into e4, the following exchange takes place:

Becca: "Billy, he raped me, and when I found out I was pregnant, I went to Vought. I didn't come to you. I didn't come to you because I was scared. Cause I knew you'd chase after him, and you would seek revenge, and it wouldn't be good for anybody."
Butcher: "I love you."
Becca: "...I love you...but the hate that you carry, the warpath that you're on, it started to pop before me. I can't."

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

[deenman]

About 20 minutes into s2e3, Becca says Homelander doesn't get to be Ryan's father, "after what you did." Then, 57 minutes into e4, the following exchange takes place:

Becca: "Billy, he raped me, and when I found out I was pregnant, I went to Vought. I didn't come to you. I didn't come to you because I was scared. Cause I knew you'd chase after him, and you would seek revenge, and it wouldn't be good for anybody."
Butcher: "I love you."
Becca: "...I love you...but the hate that you carry, the warpath that you're on, it started to pop before me. I can't."

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

Yeah i tottaly forgot that scene,that thing always struck me as weird and out of place,we never see him act like a perv,my guess his idea of consent is warped,people do what he sais because of fear or even adoration,legally that cant be considered rape,even if the person feels violated

[Kumorii]

Yeah i tottaly forgot that scene,that thing always struck me as weird and out of place,we never see him act like a perv,my guess his idea of consent is warped,people do what he sais because of fear or even adoration,legally that cant be considered rape,even if the person feels violated

Don't think that's correct. I think he definitely is a perv. You usually see that when he's either alone (drinking milk in a creepy way) or with people who accept his kinks, like with Madelyn Stillwell. Who uses his mother fetish to curb him as well as with Stormfront who encourages his violent tendencies.
He just knows that what he feels and wants isn't exactly acceptable. He doesn't think he is wrong though.
I don't think he ever thought he did something wrong towards Butchers wife either.

Granted the way he grew up certainly is heavily responsible for how he turned out.

[eschatological]

Yeah i tottaly forgot that scene,that thing always struck me as weird and out of place,we never see him act like a perv,my guess his idea of consent is warped,people do what he sais because of fear or even adoration,legally that cant be considered rape,even if the person feels violated

Hi, I'm a lawyer, and I used to practice criminal defense, coercion is still rape. Please do not carry this definition of "legally cant be considered rape" into real life.

[deenman]

Hi, I'm a lawyer, and I used to practice criminal defense, coercion is still rape. Please do not carry this definition of "legally cant be considered rape" into real life.

hiting on someone,and them having sex with you out of fear,is not coercion,mister ''lawyer'',for something to be coercion,you would have to...persuade them by using force or threats

[Twdft]

Yeah i tottaly forgot that scene,that thing always struck me as weird and out of place,we never see him act like a perv,my guess his idea of consent is warped,people do what he sais because of fear or even adoration,legally that cant be considered rape,even if the person feels violated

The hell? If you do a thing only because you fear consequences if you don't, you did not do the thing voluntarily. Sex without consent = rape. Get your head straight buddy.

[Endus]

hiting on someone,and them having sex with you out of fear,is not coercion,mister ''lawyer'',for something to be coercion,you would have to...persuade them by using force or threats

That's the literal definition of coercion. What you're describing is literally go-to-prison rape, legally-speaking. It's gross and weird to be defending it.