Has WoW gotten "too" family friendly?

[Zodiark]

You might not belong to the segment - have you considered that?

The playerbase is not the same gore oriented people 18 years ago. Today, the gamers plays LoL, Fort or whatever cartonish game.
Blizzard is targeting this group of younger people(as they should - otherwise, there won't be any games - if you target 30+ y/o busy/flakey people).

yes and no. I own a business myself and am well versed in trying to appeal to different audiences and customers. However there are plenty of people who are adults who have grown up with WoW who have much deeper pockets and maintaining a certain theme or appeal which caters to them as well as showing the younger audience something other than what they already see already with those games you mentioned isn't a bad thing.

[HansOlo]

yes and no. I own a business myself and am well versed in trying to appeal to different audiences and customers. However there are plenty of people who are adults who have grown up with WoW who have much deeper pockets and maintaining a certain theme or appeal which caters to them as well as showing the younger audience something other than what they already see already with those games you mentioned isn't a bad thing.

I'm certain that WoW is build on volume and sub numbers. It's kinda the main income. And you only have declining group of 30+ year old people right now. And we need the fresh people, who are currently playing whatever lame-theme game. It makes sense how the art turned out.

If it was Diablo Immortal, Lost Ark or something else - that's a complete different story. It probably sucks to be a student with no money, trying to enter these games. But WoW is about the mass with a direct and observable impact ingame.

[guro-tchai]

By that logic, Shadowlands is arguably the most darkest element because it involves thousands, if not millions of souls being enslaved.

The point is that those elements are a lot more graspable, because they are rather human, whereas what you're referring to is clearly within the domain of fantasy.

it would've been, if my disbelief could be suspended. as i couldn't assimiliate it into my worldview, SL was the worst expansion for me.
what i don't understand is how can you enjoy a piece of fiction while not believeing in parts of it?

Yes, because an assmad murderous incel can exist in real life, meanwhile a necromancer rising dead will never happen in real life.

Villains who can actually exist in real life tend to be scarier. Maybe not more badass or interesting or well-written, but definitely scarier.

i'd say it makes them more trivial, not scary. Lovecraft works, at least for me, because he manages to convince me that there's an incomprehensible, ineffable something which is out there. a resentful retard is just annoying.

[Kralljin]

what i don't understand is how can you enjoy a piece of fiction while not believeing in parts of it?

Largely because Lordaeron is basically filled with Undead, so you kinda get used to it, i don't see how Darrowshire fundamentally stands out from any other now Scourge overrun town in the Plaguelands.

It's also that the story of Stalvan is not fantastic that makes it dark.
This is why i compared it to Shadowlands, even an act given act or character is objectively more "evil" than others or has done worse deeds, if it makes too over the top, the character isn't as dark as a character who has done something that is far more graspable.

And in regards to the Troll quest, it's mostly how casual it is, you're just asked to capture an Ice troll, the questgiver outright tells you that they're selling them off and they're going to share the profit with you.
I don't recall another quest where this evil act is presented so mundanely.

[Gurahk]

I don't recall another quest where this evil act is presented so mundanely.

I mentioned it in a post a few pages ago, but in Azure Span there is a questline where a guy wants to blatantly genocide a bunch of gnolls, and you keep rolling with what he's saying until you've killed hundreds. He keeps telling you to off their leader, but another one takes its place shortly after, so you get sent again and again until you realize the guy you're questing for isn't that right in the head.

[Shmazard]

Yes. And too eager to appease certain kinds of political leanings. It definitely detracts from the writing.

Its Hello Kitty Warcraft Island at this point, less friends, more Warcraft!!!!

[guro-tchai]

Largely because Lordaeron is basically filled with Undead, so you kinda get used to it, i don't see how Darrowshire fundamentally stands out from any other now Scourge overrun town in the Plaguelands.

yes, Lordaeron is one giant horrorscape. to get the full experience from it, don't get desensitized.
which is the reason why Hearthstone's Naxx is cancerous: it helps the player to completely forget that they're dealing with an Auschwitz on steroids by local Dr. Mengele calling himself Kel'thu-freaking-zad. cancer has a quality of spreading - and voilà, Dragonflight.

if it makes too over the top

so, we're in agreement? if a given story isn't believable enough, i.e. ruins your suspension of disbelief, it doesn't work.
call me infantile, but i can believe and feel Lordaeron's apocalypse, acutely presented at Darrowshire.

And in regards to the Troll quest, it's mostly how casual it is, you're just asked to capture an Ice troll, the questgiver outright tells you that they're selling them off and they're going to share the profit with you.
I don't recall another quest where this evil act is presented so mundanely.

i mean, his brothers are killed and torturously enslaved by the Scourge a couple miles to the north. he's getting a trip away from all this, most likely sustenance and at least a chance to escape and become, i dunno, a pirate of the northern seas. better than being turned into an abomination, imo.

besides, my question you quoted wasn't just about Warcraft - some stories require effort from the reader to work. akin to physically holding a weight to prevent it from falling, disbelief needs to be supported.

[Kralljin]

so, we're in agreement? if a given story isn't believable enough, i.e. ruins your suspension of disbelief, it doesn't work.

I don't know?

You quoted me first and it seemed like you disagreed with me.

[Jastall]

By that logic, Shadowlands is arguably the most darkest element because it involves thousands, if not millions of souls being enslaved.

The point is that those elements are a lot more graspable, because they are rather human, whereas what you're referring to is clearly within the domain of fantasy.

Indeed. On a conceptual level Shadowlands is easily the "darkest" expansion. Few things beat the dead of an entire universe being sentenced to eternal torture hell in terms of existential dread.

It's also not very good writing, mind, but that emphasizes how writing unsettling and "dark" things well really isn't only down to how much torture porn and mountains of corpses you pile up in the story. A well written normal human with a knife is infinitely scarier than a Boeing-sized dragon or a giant blue man that wants to unravel reality.

Then again some people think WOTLK was "dark" while modern WoW is kid-friendly, meanwhile in that expansion Arthas was pulling a "I'll get you next time, Gadg- hero!!" at least once in every zone in pure, cheesecake Saturday morning cartoon fashion. Warcraft has never taken itself too seriously in the grand scheme of things. It's cheesy more often than not.

[Kralljin]

Then again some people think WOTLK was "dark" while modern WoW is kid-friendly, meanwhile in that expansion Arthas was pulling a "I'll get you next time, Gadg- hero!!" at least once in every zone in pure, cheesecake Saturday morning cartoon fashion.

With all due respect, it seems more like you're creating a strawman here.

I don't think anyone is pointing at Arthas when talking about Wotlk being "dark", but rather stuff like:
1. Malygos taking a Red Dragon captive, mind fucking her to replace his dead mate
2. Torturing a prisoner of war for information
3. torturing young apes to lure out their mother
4. aforementioned enslavement of trolls
5. Malygos capturing mortal mages and forcing them to do his bidding
6. Luring out Ice Troll chieftains, to turn them into Blight Trolls (You can even talk to him in Drakuru's Necropolis, they're begging you to release them)
7. Players turning blight into acid, so it just kills soldiers rather than into undead

There's also other stuff such as Varian basically advocating to genocide all Orcs on Azeroth during the Battle of the Undercity, which is quite something for a character that's supposed to be a protagonist.

[zhero]

Dragons are supposed to be awe inspiring, terror inducing entities that radiate power, not your next taxi upon a quest-leg.

we've been riding dragons since burning crusade.

[Jastall]

With all due respect, it seems more like you're creating a strawman here.

I don't think anyone is pointing at Arthas when talking about Wotlk being "dark", but rather stuff like:
1. Malygos taking a Red Dragon captive, mind fucking her to replace his dead mate
2. Torturing a prisoner of war for information
3. torturing young apes to lure out their mother
4. aforementioned enslavement of trolls
5. Malygos capturing mortal mages and forcing them to do his bidding
6. Luring out Ice Troll chieftains, to turn them into Blight Trolls (You can even talk to him in Drakuru's Necropolis, they're begging you to release them)
7. Players turning blight into acid, so it just kills soldiers rather than into undead

There's also other stuff such as Varian basically advocating to genocide all Orcs on Azeroth during the Battle of the Undercity, which is quite something for a character that's supposed to be a protagonist.

I mean that's not exactly all that heavy either. BfA alone had Drustvar and Nazmir that easily match the list, the former especially. Waycrest Manor has probably the creepiest creature design in all of WoW.

And of course Wrath on the flipside had tons of silly stuff and gratuitous pop-culture references like the Black Knight or Putricide, to name only those two out of a long list. Tragedy happening elsewhere doesn't counter that enough to call the expansion especially dark or anything close to that. Or if so, then again Shadowlands is by far the darkest expansion given that the Maw and what happens in it is way, way worse than anything seen elsewhere.

Dragonflight itself is more light-hearted than most expansions for sure but that's by design. It doesn't necessarily mean every future xpack will be like that, much like Mists being light-hearted on the surface didn't mean we wouldn't then go to WoD and beyond.

[Palapop]

Virtual war shouldn't be source of so called "virtual racism", i.e. players hating each other just for picking other faction. It was ok for RTS games, but it isn't for MMO. In MMO all players should be friends by default, not enemies, and so called "war" should be completely voluntary.

World of WARcraft. Not world of "lets solve it in ring and hug each other after it" craft.

[Kralljin]

I mean that's not exactly all that heavy either.

Slavery and implied rape is something i'd rate as pretty dark.

And of course Wrath on the flipside had tons of silly stuff and gratuitous pop-culture references like the Black Knight or Putricide, to name only those two out of a long list.

And i didn't deny that, but i think what is featured in Wrath is again, rather relatively understandable, as something such as torture isn't something that is commonly featured in games, let alone in a "good" light.

Tragedy happening elsewhere doesn't counter that enough to call the expansion especially dark or anything close to that. Or if so, then again Shadowlands is by far the darkest expansion given that the Maw and what happens in it is way, way worse than anything seen elsewhere.

Because Shadowlands is simply overplaying it by being that cosmically over the top.

Dragonflight itself is more light-hearted than most expansions for sure but that's by design. It doesn't necessarily mean every future xpack will be like that, much like Mists being light-hearted on the surface didn't mean we wouldn't then go to WoD and beyond.

I personally find this fundamentally odd how this discussion is always taken as "dark vs. light".

Warcraft wasn't this extremely edge, but it's not like it was all sunshine and rainbows, the style of Warcraft in my mind was one shaped by 90's Metal albums (and Samwise incidentally drew albums for Metal band(s)).
Modern WoW simply no longer delivers on that, when tries to be edge it instantly goes completely over the top but then on the other end of the spectrum also completely overplay the lightheartedness.

I think Classic had both elements, but overall it delivered more on a grounded fantasy adventure and wasn't as extreme on both ends (or at least, more sparringly).
And i think that's what some people criticize about DF, it's not about trying to be overly edgy for its own sake, but delivering a more grounded fantasy adventure.

When i think of Warcraft, i think of an Orc Warrior in rugged plate armor yelling "For the Horde" while charging into Battle, while on the other side you have a righteous Paladin wanting to smite the foes of the Alliance.
That's not dark or edgy, it's also not "light hearted" but it's Warcraft to me.

[Kithelle]

Dragonflight is literally full of Pixar crap ripoffs. If you quested through this expac you can’t seriously tell me it wasn’t intentionally dumbed down to some dumbdumb friendly pile of happy rainbow sunshine friendship land. It’s nauseating, especially the voice acting. My god every time I fly over one of those Instagram river raft world quests and hear that blood elf talking about “fluffy animals” I lose 10 brain cells

Let me guess, you're one of those people who saw a Horde soldier impale a Kul Tiran with a spear to a wall and their child crying below their corpse and said "I don't like soft shit! BFA should be more mature and violent!"?

[RadasNoir]

Even as someone who has always despised the faction war and wanted to see more cooperation between the Horde and Alliance, the tonal dissonance in this expansion has definitely been bizarre. I know a few years have passed and the Aspects representatives specifically told the Horde and Alliance leaders to leave any conflict off their isles, but it still feels like the scars of BFA and other past conflicts shouldn't have faded this quickly, and considering how certain members of the Horde and Alliance used to have no problem with continuing to fight each other while all of Azeroth itself was at risk, it's difficult to believe that the Aspects wagging their fingers and going "Behave yourselves, now!" would be enough of a deterrent, either.

While I don't want to see the Horde and Alliance at each others' throats again, there should still really be a lot more tension between the two factions as a whole, and certain races in particular. More sticking to their own camps while glancing warily at the other side, and less everyone rubbing shoulders around a camp fire. Even the more diplomatic NPCs that need to interact with the other faction should be more polite than outright friendly.

It's also more than a little frustrating that the faction NPCs get to intermingle a bit more freely than the actual players do.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I mean that's not exactly all that heavy either. BfA alone had Drustvar and Nazmir that easily match the list, the former especially. Waycrest Manor has probably the creepiest creature design in all of WoW.

Maldraxxus is pretty disgusting too.

Also, I'm really surprised nobody's mentioned Thaddius by now. Probably one of THE most horrific bosses Blizzard has ever made. I really hope those souls didn't end up in the Maw or another torturous hellhole after they were released....

[thottstation]

I miss heavy metal WoW.

That was it's appeal.

[Al Gorefiend]

WoW was always extremely PG with its graphics. The Undead look as spooky as they did on Nightmare before Christmas. The blood is ketchup packets bursting outside players chests.

[Jastall]

Slavery and implied rape is something i'd rate as pretty dark.

And i didn't deny that, but i think what is featured in Wrath is again, rather relatively understandable, as something such as torture isn't something that is commonly featured in games, let alone in a "good" light.

Because Shadowlands is simply overplaying it by being that cosmically over the top.

I personally find this fundamentally odd how this discussion is always taken as "dark vs. light".

Warcraft wasn't this extremely edge, but it's not like it was all sunshine and rainbows, the style of Warcraft in my mind was one shaped by 90's Metal albums (and Samwise incidentally drew albums for Metal band(s)).
Modern WoW simply no longer delivers on that, when tries to be edge it instantly goes completely over the top but then on the other end of the spectrum also completely overplay the lightheartedness.

I think Classic had both elements, but overall it delivered more on a grounded fantasy adventure and wasn't as extreme on both ends (or at least, more sparringly).
And i think that's what some people criticize about DF, it's not about trying to be overly edgy for its own sake, but delivering a more grounded fantasy adventure.

When i think of Warcraft, i think of an Orc Warrior in rugged plate armor yelling "For the Horde" while charging into Battle, while on the other side you have a righteous Paladin wanting to smite the foes of the Alliance.
That's not dark or edgy, it's also not "light hearted" but it's Warcraft to me.

Shadowlands went too heavy in the Maw, true, to the detriment of the story. Maldraxxus and Revendreth had more than their fair share of vivisection, torture, eternal punishment and such without going brazenly over the top. I found the Venthyr especially handled those things pretty well, using theme of crime, punishment, debt and atonement purposefully as part of their narrative so that none of it feels gratuitous. The killer aesthetic certainly helped me like them too.

Samwise's artwork is just about the only place where WoW committed to the whole heavy metal aesthetic. Elsewhere the setting was resolutely bright and colorful in terms of palette and feel, even in WC3 which was 18+, and in terms of themes it was heroes vs villains pretty much all the time with the plucky heroes coming out on top in every story that wasn't The Frozen Throne. Bad stuff happened, sure, but most of it is relegated to side-quests and never very graphically at that.

This really feels like the convos around the start of Mists. The setting's going to come to big Orcs smashing things, we're just taking a pause in happy fun dragon land for half an expansion.