Would Blizzard ever institute support specs?

[Wangming]

I would love a shakeup of the holy trinity with dedicated support classes that don't heal or anything just buff you and debuff the enemy. But that begs the question: How would it work in solo play?

One possible coding nightmare way I can think of is to have the buff be distributed evenly across the party. So for example, if you are alone you get a 50% increase to your main stat. But in a 5-man party, everyone gets 10%. Plus one guy who hits about as well as a healer.

[VinceVega]

I don't think it would be a huge balancing nightmare. At the end of the day, a support spec just boosts the abilities of DPS, Healers, and Tanks.



Would it be conceivable for Blizzard to alter the size of raids and groups to accommodate this new role? For example, 6-man dungeons and 22-man raids?



I believe it could be possibly worth it to draw in a demographic of players who enjoy that type of gameplay. There are players out there who like boosting party members but aren't into healing. I think the main issue is making that type of gameplay compelling.

Couldn't there be a way to measure how much damage and healing you've boosted? For example, couldn't DPS track when your damage is being boosted by a spell from support and attribute that bonus damage to the support?

Also tanks don't have flashy numbers, but people (albeit a minority) still love tanking.

- - - Updated - - -



In terms of it being "mandatory" I don't see that as being any different than needing tanks, healers or DPS. All roles are essentially mandatory in group content unless you're overgeared.

- - - Updated - - -



Well like I said; Alter the size of groups to accommodate the new role. Also all roles are mandatory in group content, so I don't see Support as anything different than the existing roles. You can't raid without a tank for example.

But the change of groupsizes doesn't change the problems i described. You could than still take one more healer or DPS the support has to replace somehow.

And you have to weight if potentially alienating your current players is worth getting a few new ones. Changing the holy trinity is not something small. It would be the biggest change wow had since its inception. By a long shot.

And if the sup only boost damage he is a damage dealer.

Mandatory roles in queued is fine.
But not in PuGs or guild groups. You WILL get a meta. And with a walking PI you could end up with none of them or all of them in one form of content if you do not be careful.
The only way to "balance" it, i can think of right now is my mentioned szenario 3. But imagine this... 4 people get buffs to offset a whole other damage dealer. That is 25% more damage on average. You don't have to take on oif there would be perfect balance. Which there never is. If it is even slightly below you will never get invites to 5 man stuff. Raids maybe. Because guildgroups tend to be more lenient.
And then who do you give this buff? Do you rotate? Healers will never get it because healers cannot need it or it is mandatory again otherwise. Because without it you are dead.

So you have like i said... PI on steroids with 3/4 of the DD ppulation being constantly pissed.
Or the buffs you get give way more to an Moonkin (best PI target) than to a affliction warlock or something. It will be a shitshow.

IMHO this will bring to many problems with it to be worth it. But we will know next week. I think the quest which sparked this whole conversation was on 10.0.7 no?

[Teriz]

The problem is obviously that you then need to offer multiple support specs as an option to players, else this will be extremely limiting.

Sure. I see no reason why Blizzard wouldn't offer 4-6 new support specs for players to choose from.

It is in itself already limiting because you're imposing another factor onto group composition, which is something Blizzard has also moved away from over the years.
Yeah, in its early days you really wanted to have X,Y and Z even in a smaller group, nowadays it's a lot more flexible of just grabbing whatever fills that role.

Well again, I'm not seeing how this is any different than being in LFR waiting for a tank to show up. If Blizzard started off with 4-6 support specs, all of them should be viable.

That said, I could see an issue with people struggling to find a support if the role is simply not popular. However, I can see a situation where a Rogue player would hop into support in order to more easily get groups.

And as alluded, you either need to add multiple support specs (which is a big task) or you need to forcibly retool certain specs into the suport role, which would be a massively controversial move.

I would say you give new 4th specs to the classes getting the support specialization. I don't believe it would be wise to retool existing specs into support.

[VinceVega]

I would love a shakeup of the holy trinity with dedicated support classes that don't heal or anything just buff you and debuff the enemy. But that begs the question: How would it work in solo play?

One possible coding nightmare way I can think of is to have the buff be distributed evenly across the party. So for example, if you are alone you get a 50% increase to your main stat. But in a 5-man party, everyone gets 10%. Plus one guy who hits about as well as a healer.

I don't think soloplay should be an issue with this. You play the class not the spec. In open world there is no reason to play as a healer right now either. It is horribly slow. Switch to DPS or tank and done.

I am sorry... but open world play is simply not big enough to be considered here. And no one farms transmog as a healer either.

[Amariw]

At face value it can be a cool idea, but i do see one major issue: throughput.

Assuming wow stays somewhat similar to its current design, dps contribution is important. A support class would have to indirectly add as much dps as pure dpsers, or it'd have to contribute so much utility it would be worth it.

Both options run the risk of making it mandatory for any serious raiding/m+, which goes against "bring the player" and i'm personally not too stoked about.

It's solvable, but to be sold on it being worth more than the design trouble it'd cause, i think it would have to be really awesome and fun, and i'm not seeing that yet.

[Wangming]

I don't think soloplay should be an issue with this. You play the class not the spec. In open world there is no reason to play as a healer right now either. It is horribly slow. Switch to DPS or tank and done.

I am sorry... but open-world play is simply not big enough to be considered here. And no one farms transmog as a healer either.

Yeah, fair enough I suppose.

[Teriz]

I would love a shakeup of the holy trinity with dedicated support classes that don't heal or anything just buff you and debuff the enemy. But that begs the question: How would it work in solo play?

Yeah, I don't doubt that there are people out there who would really dig this additional role, and it would add an additional layer of complexity onto WoW group play. Heck, maybe it could encourage more group play and cooperation?

As for solo, Support specs would be in the same situation as healers are in when they level. Also support specs would have a DPS spec to fall back on if they want to level more quickly, just like all healers do.

One possible coding nightmare way I can think of is to have the buff be distributed evenly across the party. So for example, if you are alone you get a 50% increase to your main stat. But in a 5-man party, everyone gets 10%. Plus one guy who hits about as well as a healer.

I don't think it would be any different than existing group or single target buffs/debuffs. I do believe a support spec should have better buffs and debuffs than other specs though.

- - - Updated - - -

But the change of groupsizes doesn't change the problems i described. You could than still take one more healer or DPS the support has to replace somehow.

Again, this is no different than current raid compositions. In 10-man raids you're taking 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 dps. In this scenario, raise it to 12-man and take 2 tanks, 2 healers, 6 DPS and 2 support. Sure you can make the run without the right raid composition, but your chances of success are diminished.

And you have to weight if potentially alienating your current players is worth getting a few new ones. Changing the holy trinity is not something small. It would be the biggest change wow had since its inception. By a long shot.

But why would players be alienated by a new role? I don't see serious raiders getting pissed off because a new layer has been added to WoW gameplay. In fact, I could see quite the opposite where raiders are excited about new gameplay opportunities being offered.

And if the sup only boost damage he is a damage dealer.

A support spec should be boosting ALL aspects of a party. That's damage, healing, and mitigation.

Mandatory roles in queued is fine.
But not in PuGs or guild groups. You WILL get a meta. And with a walking PI you could end up with none of them or all of them in one form of content if you do not be careful.
The only way to "balance" it, i can think of right now is my mentioned szenario 3. But imagine this... 4 people get buffs to offset a whole other damage dealer. That is 25% more damage on average. You don't have to take on oif there would be perfect balance. Which there never is. If it is even slightly below you will never get invites to 5 man stuff. Raids maybe. Because guildgroups tend to be more lenient.
And then who do you give this buff? Do you rotate? Healers will never get it because healers cannot need it or it is mandatory again otherwise. Because without it you are dead.

Again, I don't agree with replacing existing roles in groups to accommodate this. I see Blizzard simply increasing group sizes for the new role. Support would simply make the run smoother, with its job being to enhance the overall performance of the group and slotting in damage or healing when the opportunity emerges.

IMHO this will bring to many problems with it to be worth it. But we will know next week. I think the quest which sparked this whole conversation was on 10.0.7 no?

In regards to that, I could totally see a scenario where Blizzard introduces the concept in the Evoker class, and then introduce the role in other classes in the following expansion.

However, I don't think that's going to happen.

- - - Updated - - -

At face value it can be a cool idea, but i do see one major issue: throughput.

Assuming wow stays somewhat similar to its current design, dps contribution is important. A support class would have to indirectly add as much dps as pure dpsers, or it'd have to contribute so much utility it would be worth it.

Both options run the risk of making it mandatory for any serious raiding/m+, which goes against "bring the player" and i'm personally not too stoked about.

It's solvable, but to be sold on it being worth more than the design trouble it'd cause, i think it would have to be really awesome and fun, and i'm not seeing that yet.

Again, the "bring the player" argument falls off if you simply view it as another role. Within the existing trinity tanks, healers, and DPS are mandatory. This wouldn't be any different. "Bring the player" came about because you had certain classes offering critical party buffs, and it wasn't a defined role. If you define the role, then it being mandatory isn't a problem, because the role becomes mandatory, not the class offering it (because multiple classes should be offering it).

[Wangming]

Again, I don't agree with replacing existing roles in groups to accommodate this. I see Blizzard simply increasing group sizes for the new role. Support would simply make the run smoother, with its job being to enhance the overall performance of the group.

I mean if you buff group performance enough you might be able to take a DPS away. Probably simpler to do than rebalance every boss for a larger group.

[loras]

Does anyone think it’s possible that at some point Blizzard would give new specs for existing classes, and those specs would be support-based, like Bards and Dancers from Final Fantasy? Paladins, Monks, Shaman, Rogues, Mages, Hunters, Priests, and other classes could get new support roles.

More importantly, would those new specialization types be popular enough among the player base to warrant their creation?

I’m starting to believe that Blizzard might feel that the Trinity is outdated, and they may be looking to shake up the classes in some way. I don’t know how popular support classes are in other games, but people seem to love them, and are a bit bummed that they’re not in WoW.

Who would want to play a support class though?
At least healers have something to "fight" against even if it is most often their allies' stupidity.

Support is pretty much literally "I am a human npc roleplaying a boosting mechanic".

[Teriz]

I mean if you buff group performance enough you might be able to take a DPS away. Probably simpler to do than rebalance every boss for a larger group.

Possibly....

- - - Updated - - -

Who would want to play a support class though?
At least healers have something to "fight" against even if it is most often their allies' stupidity.

Support is pretty much literally "I am a human npc roleplaying a boosting mechanic".

Buff the group, debuff enemies, spot DPS/Healing when available, keep Healers topped off mana-wise, crowd-control, etc.

I could see it be an interesting role if properly utilized.

[Snowfunk]

Nah, I don't see that ever happening.
Pulling such a fundamental game change off at this point, is not feasible.

Ever more so when there is no obvious gain in doing so. It's really not like this is something missing from the game.
Healers are the supports, and I don't see any reason why that needs to change.

[Shadowferal]

Chow down!

[Teriz]

Nah, I don't see that ever happening.
Pulling such a fundamental game change off at this point, is not feasible.

Ever more so when there is no obvious gain in doing so. It's really not like this is something missing from the game.
Healers are the supports, and I don't see any reason why that needs to change.

You don’t think there’s a segment of players who prefer support over other roles and don’t like to heal? I know there’s heal and support in FF14 and other games, and healers and support are two very distinct groups of players.

[Swnem]

No, i don't think they will. Not the way the game is designed atm and with mythic+ being such a large part of it.

The support classes would either be too weak and be completely passed on in mythic+ or too strong and required on every group. It would be a balance nightmare.
The way that FF does it is that you pay for the utility with your own damage, but the buffs aren't super huge. They are like a PI. We already have that. We have also healing utility with ancestral guidance, vampiric embrace and natures vigil. There is also all sorts of buffs and utility classes bring. We basically already have support classes.

Having a full support class would raise a lot of issues. The fact of the matter is even if it existed, it would still require skill to do well on and the people who like it cause it's this lazy thing where you don't have to try very hard would also be disappointed. I think it's overall a bad thing.

[Teriz]

No, i don't think they will. Not the way the game is designed atm and with mythic+ being such a large part of it.

The support classes would either be too weak and be completely passed on in mythic+ or too strong and required on every group. It would be a balance nightmare.
The way that FF does it is that you pay for the utility with your own damage, but the buffs aren't super huge. They are like a PI. We already have that. We have also healing utility with ancestral guidance, vampiric embrace and natures vigil. There is also all sorts of buffs and utility classes bring. We basically already have support classes.

Having a full support class would raise a lot of issues. The fact of the matter is even if it existed, it would still require skill to do well on and the people who like it cause it's this lazy thing where you don't have to try very hard would also be disappointed. I think it's overall a bad thing.

Well keep in mind; I’m saying support specs not a support class. Support specs would be no more mandatory than Tank or DPS specs.

[Alroxas]

Support is very easy to impliment in WoW's current ecosystem. You just have a spec that has medium cooldown large burst defensive/heal abilities. Allow them to do mediocre damage but have huge targeted short duration buffs that they can use fairly oftem.

Except that's horrible scaling. Just think it though a bit more.

Let's say a support class/spec replaces a DPS class at 75% efficiency. So in a party setting the DPS value goes from 3 to 2.75 BUT because support can "boost" DPS to make up for the 25% then they are effectively boosting the other 2 DPS up by 12.5% each.

Now convert that to a 20m raid. If you kept the 12.5% boost and your comp is 2 Tanks, 4 Healers, 13 DPS, 1 Support then support pushes the DPS value to 14.6 (12.5% applied to each standard DPS). Basically turning that 1 support into the weight of almost 2 DPS because they are boosting the damage across the raid. And it only gets worst as the raid size increases.

Additionally, what happens if you have 2 (or more) support classes? Similar to the "issue" we have right now with having multiple priest funnel their PI to 1 DPS in a raid setting. Do the damage increases stack? Or the frequency of the damage increase?

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think it would be a huge balancing nightmare. At the end of the day, a support spec just boosts the abilities of DPS, Healers, and Tanks.

Yes but where is your proof that it wouldn't be a nightmare? We already have ample proof that it's difficult to balance just 3 roles across 13 classes.

Would it be conceivable for Blizzard to alter the size of raids and groups to accommodate this new role? For example, 6-man dungeons and 22-man raids?

And how would that work for older content? Sure level scaling usually makes older content irrelevant yet even now, Mythic BFA raids can be quite difficult to solo.

I believe it could be possibly worth it to draw in a demographic of players who enjoy that type of gameplay. There are players out there who like boosting party members but aren't into healing. I think the main issue is making that type of gameplay compelling.

That's usually not the problem. The problem is justifying the cost. Is adding a support class (along with readjusting the rest of the game) going to bring in more players than it will cost to implement? Are we going to be able to see population levels return back to Wrath days with this change?

But Activision Blizzard has tons of money, yes that's true but they still have to justify the cost to their shareholders. So instead of devoting additional resources to <insert support class> maybe they invest those resources in... Shorter patch cycles, more content, bringing GPT AI into the game, etc etc.

In terms of it being "mandatory" I don't see that as being any different than needing tanks, healers or DPS. All roles are essentially mandatory in group content unless you're overgeared.

See my previous point about scaling - in short, a flat buff amount (even only at specific frequencies) can multiply the remaining DPS output by such an extreme amount that you would be handicapping your group without said buff class. Going to a scaling modifier so that the boosting effect goes down as you get more players would also be difficult to balance as toss in additional variables such as healer to DPS ratio. Or healers that act as DPS (i.e. Disc priests) or what happens to the scaling when you have more than 1 buff class in the group.

[ONCHEhap]

True support classes can work in a MMO like WoW. Captain from Lord of the Rings Online (back when the game wasn't garbage that is) was an excellent example of it.

The real issue is the WoW community, if a class' contribution can't be quantified and have a number between 0 and 100 put on it, they would never even begin to consider playing the class and would complain about it the whole time

[NineSpine]

The game would have to be completely watered down and homogenized like FF14 to have supports.

It just wouldn't work with wow's damage profiles/cooldowns and combat.

The game would have to be completely watered down and homogenized in order to be... less watered down and homogenized?

[Jimson]

Evoker is getting a support spec next patch so ya.

Also I think some specs could be changed over to support roles such as enhancement, discipline, maybe survival.

Stating that Evokers are getting a third spec at all, much less support, is a pretty big leap.

And if they pulled DPS specs away from existing classes and reworked them.... the forums would be lit ablaze.

[Segus1992]

Maybe combine it with off-tanks.

With how much DPS tank specs are already able to dish out, I don't see offtanks being a thing unless they change the design of normal tanks to do more damage when being hit.

Personally I think it's less about adding a fourth (fifth) role and more about making the lines a bit more blurred. Instead of "tank/melee/range/healer", make it "melee/ranged/support" where all melees are able to tank, but with some differences in potential (say a Prot Warrior takes 10-15% less damage outside of CDs than the weakest melee, but maybe with other benefits alternatively them just being better at tanking but not necessary for it), support being less about healing and more about DPSing in creative ways and covering for mistakes, ranging from TBC Shadow Priest to something like current Fistweaver.

Obviously I'm probably wrong but I think it'd be hype to see and it's kind of where the game is currently headed, especially in M+ (only thing really missing is the tank thing, and the part with healer DPS being 'creative').