Question on new hc dungeon

[Deleted]

Hi question on new 90 lvl hc 5 man normal dungeon, they gonna be like hc in Wotlk or hard and long like in Cata?

[Herecius]

Somewhere in between. During the Q&A, Blizzard answered a question like that and said that the jump from normal to heroic was too large at the start of Cata, when people didn't really have gear. They went on to say that if you're looking for something that'll really test your skills in a 5-man, the challenge mode is the way to go.

[Nobleshield]

I'm hoping that thanks to Challenge Mode, the regular dungeons are much more like Wrath than Cata. People cry about wanting a challenge and all that rubbish, and that's fine maybe for the first week or two when you're gearing up. After that, though, when you have to run the dungeons every week for VP, it gets old having it still take 30+ minutes for a run. Hell there are still some nasty packs in the regular Cata heroic dungeons that need to be CC'd (well, "need" is a strong term, but CC helps), and there's a few of them that still take a fair bit of time to get through (Deadmines, Stonecore, Grim Batol spring to mind) that still require effort. Compare that to Wrath where you could barrel through a Heroic Utgarde Keep run in around 15-20 minutes or so (not going to mention the two extremes, AN and HoS). Much nicer for grinding.

Dungeons shouldn't be "challenging" in the sense of time and skill, because they aren't there for time or skill. They are there for gear (and later, points). I'd rather see short dungeons with interesting bosses than long dungeons with interesting (or not-so-interesting) bosses. Honestly, I would prefer a dungeon format something like this:

You have four kinds of enemies:

Minion: At-level non-elite trash. Most mobs should be this.
Elite: As it is now. At-level Elite mob. "Leads" packs of minions, maybe 1-2 per pack
Mini-boss: Level+1 elite mob with one or two abilities similar to the boss in its area. Not complex but designed to show you something that will help you with the boss (example: Troll guy before Venoxis that does Toxic Link)
Boss: Level+2 elite mob with between 1-3 phases. Several abilities that have to be managed.

So to take ZG as an example: All of the trash except maybe one or two guys in each group would be non-elite. The guy before Venoxis (and the one at the start) is a perfect example of a mini-boss. There would be a similar guy on a Raptor before Mandokir who does the ground slam thing, one before Kilnara who does that Tears of Blood/Wave attack, one before Zanzil who.. I'm not sure, maybe does Zanzil fire, and one before Jin'do who puts down the green anti magic shells. ZG is almost exactly at this system except most of the trash would be non-elites.

[Deleted]

Thx, i hope too they gonna be much like wotlk hc then cata hc now

[Durbi]

Why? so you can finish them using 1 hand and with closed eyes? how can you enjoy that kind of gaming is beyond me...

[Nobleshield]

Why? so you can finish them using 1 hand and with closed eyes? how can you enjoy that kind of gaming is beyond me...

It's not a matter of "enjoy that kind of gaming" it's a matter of months into the xpac everyone wants to either: A) Quickly run the dungeon for points so they can VP cap, or B) Quickly gear up an alt via drops and/or JP and VP. A dungeon you can "finish using 1 hand and with closed eyes" helps realize both of those goals quickly. A dungeon that requires effort and, dare I say it, skill and requires a significant amount of time invested gets lame and boring once you don't want to be there and just want to finish it as fast as possible, because you don't want to be there period but don't really have a choice (the choice of "then don't cap VP/don't gear up" isn't a real choice).

That's exactly what happened with Cata. The dungeons were awesome the first handful of times you went there. It was new, it was exciting. you had to think! You had to be careful with pulls. And then it got boring. And then it got even more frustrating because you just wanted your VP for the week. And now it's a chore. At least in Wrath with very few exceptions the dungeons were painless and could be done really quickly, so everyone was happy - raiders could spend 15-20 minutes and get their badges, perfect for a break or in between farming/BGs/Wintergrasp/chatting. New players could gear up quickly to a reasonable level. Returning players could gear up quickly to a reasonable level. Now, while you can do that it takes more of a time investment and there's a chance of having a bad pug and having it take longer - this seems to be especially true in dungeons like Deadmines which are still challenging to the average person, and very time consuming. You can't barrel through the place in 15 minutes anymore, which is what most people would prefer nowadays because the dungeons serve no purpose other than providing points of some type. In most cases you have to be cautious with pulls, and in some cases you can/should be using CC to help the pull go really smooth (e.g. pulls with healers in Throne of Tides, maybe a pull or two in Stonecore). The end result is a time investment of at least 30 minutes, if not more, for something that feels more like a "McJob" than something you want to do and enjoy.

[Skulli]

I think HC is the new normal. They said there wont be any "normal" level 90 dungeons in Mop, only level up dungeons form 85 to 90.
So how i understand it you go straight into heroics when you got level 90.

[raggin]

The way I see it, challenge mode is all fine and dandy but its just to showcase yourself.

Dungeons shouldn't be "challenging" in the sense of time and skill, because they aren't there for time or skill. They are there for gear (and later, points)

If dungeons are for gear then WHY AREN'T WE GETTING HIGHER iLEVEL GEAR FROM CHALLENGE MODE?

If you think that adding a timed tun mode and rewarding statless transmorg gear for that is your excuse of dumbing down the dungeons for people who can't be bothered with investing time and efforts into research and development of their class and spec then I really feel that Blizzard is catering to the wrath babies who cried all through cata.

[mklovin]

This was answered in Q&A on the front page; not sure where it is right now. But basically they said they were aiming for a person to be able to sit down and do several dungeons rather than sitting down and only being able to do one. So sounds like you are looking at about 20-30 minute runs at the most.