[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[threads]

I can't play with that mindset tbh. The whole fun of playing dps for me is maximizing damage while handling all the mechanics. There's also the fun of competing with the other dps in your group and pushing eachother to play better.

[Edge-]

Honestly, meters end up generally being detrimental to overall social interaction in MMO's due to people "meter maiding" or meter padding. If you're not "up to par" dps-wise, even if you're doing perfectly acceptable dps, there's a good chance you'll get yelled at by someone (I can't count how many arguments I had in Rift as a healer with asshole tanks/other dps calling out folks who were doing perfectly fine dps for expert dungeons but it was below "acceptable" levels so they were shit talking them). And other folks who completely ignore fight mechanics and play stupid just so they can pad damage meters just to link them in chat over and over and over.

I do like having a personal one so I can loosely keep track of my own performance to see if I'm screwing up terribly and underperforming (not all that uncommon for me, I suck at playing DPS) but that's about it. If I'm at least hitting "average" numbers, then it's a load of /whatever. Except when I beat my friends, then I'll shit talk them because it's fun.

[Granyala]

That's virtually impossible w/o logging and parsing.

I know how you feel and share the sentiment. But I am not a person that obsesses over DPS / padding or ranking on WoL/Warcraftlogs.
Ro me it is merely important that I perform good and don't slow my raid down.

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(I can't count how many arguments I had in Rift as a healer with asshole tanks/other dps calling out folks who were doing perfectly fine dps for expert dungeons but it was below "acceptable" levels so they were shit talking them).

Weird.

It's quite rare that I encounter this in WoWs mythic dungeons. Typically people don't say a thing unless sth goes wrong and most of the time even then they are quiet and try again.

[Aruhen]

I wouldn't mind a personal DPS meter as much as I don't care for them. You shouldn't be able to link it too so non of that crap going on in dungeons. Completely personal. I still stand by my stance though that it won't really help much as the game is pretty clear cut and dry in the way it plays.

[Edge-]

Weird.

It's quite rare that I encounter this in WoWs mythic dungeons. Typically people don't say a thing unless sth goes wrong and most of the time even then they are quiet and try again.

Heh, had it happen back when I played WoW too. Doing older/easy content and DPS are doing appropriate dps for the content/their gear level but some asshole who is way overgeared shit talks them for not doing overkill levels of dps.

Not every time, of course, but I ran a lot of dungeons in those games over the years so ran into plenty of those types of elitest folks. Like the folks in Rift who recruit for fast expert runs and basically want T2 geared people for dungeons : P

[threads]

I've seen tons of people in randoms that don't understand how to keep up a buff/debuff properly or never use their damage cds. It's very hard to understand you're doing something wrong in a game without having an easy way to compare your performance to others.

They could also do something like requiring you to beat one of the dummy trial things before you can unlock DF. I think WoW did that with heroic dungeons in WoD right? That way you would atleast find out yourself if you're doing something wrong.

[Granyala]

Oh God please don't. I passionately hate the Proving ground Bullshit in WoW as it does not resemble actual PvE in any way.

[threads]

well there's a big difference between PG and burning a target dummy

[Granyala]

Not to mention that it actually did fuck all good for the quality of Heroic PUGs.

Yep. I virtually did not notice any difference at all.

[Aurimas]

Most people seem to be in agreement that it causes stupid problems with people screwing things up.
Most people seem to be in agreement that it increases douchebaggary.
Most people seem to be in agreement that it is a useful tool if used correctly.
Most people seem to be in agreement that it is only really needed for cutting edge / savage / etc content.

I don't understand why most people can't be in agreement that FFXIV's way may very well be a good solution.

Run your tools, keep your pie hole shut.

As long as your savage static has someone good analyzing... who cares? Hell, a good fight analysis need a lot more than just numbers anyway.

Do we feel that bad for PS players who don't have access? Do we think that if only we had meters to scream at scrubs, all the sudden a pug savage wouldn't fall apart? As long as we say "get gud scrub" before we kick the 3 bads, people won't just start leaving your failed party finder group?

Or is it just to have some kind of empirical proof for a temper-tantrum?

The cynic in me just screams that no matter how "almost everyone agrees that it increases douchebaggary"... they still want to be douchebags. Hell, a depressing portion of the comments here have been "what, you don't want people to know you suck? get good scrub".

I can't play with that mindset tbh. The whole fun of playing dps for me is maximizing damage while handling all the mechanics. There's also the fun of competing with the other dps in your group and pushing eachother to play better.

I agree. I use ACT for the same thing. Actually, since dps is my secondary class, I have to remember how people performed last tier. I don't think it is worth the problems to go with a built in meter though.

[Granyala]

I don't understand why most people can't be in agreement that FFXIV's way may very well be a good solution.

Run your tools, keep your pie hole shut.

Because it would be better if the developer actually supported the parsing to make it more accurate etc.

Also, a solution supported by the game would be preferable to some 3rd party tool that sniffs memory/network traffic.

[SodiumChloride]

I've seen tons of people in randoms that don't understand how to keep up a buff/debuff properly or never use their damage cds. It's very hard to understand you're doing something wrong in a game without having an easy way to compare your performance to others.

They could also do something like requiring you to beat one of the dummy trial things before you can unlock DF. I think WoW did that with heroic dungeons in WoD right? That way you would atleast find out yourself if you're doing something wrong.

It's been like over 10 years. I think it's time we just accept that some people will never "learn to play" no matter what you do - pop ups, dps meters ... etc.

Time to decouple an individual player's reward from the performance of others.

Make it so others can help you but not fuck you over.

[Granyala]

How would this really work in the context of entirely stat-based games like MMOs, though?

It wouldn't.

You'd have to change the whole premise of the game.

[SodiumChloride]

How would this really work in the context of entirely stat-based games like MMOs, though?

Individualized rewards and objectives will go a long way.

Let others in the group be able to see your objectives so they can help.

However make it clear from the outset that you and only you are responsible for your own success.

Helping people is a great way to make friends but it shouldn't be an obligation - after 10 years of WoW, we have seen just what "obligation" gets us; toxic players with a sense of entitlement scaring away other players who don't want to deal with that BS. (This is why people don't even bother to group up in "causal" content, they don't want the responsibility.)

[SodiumChloride]

Sure, I agree with much of your givens here. However, there are still large swaths of players who DO enjoy the team-based gameplay that MMOs offer.

What you're describing is another game entirely. Or - in the MMO context - closer to open world questing, shared rewards, and event objectives similar to GW2. Which is fine, but that doesn't mean that it needs to infringe on the dynamics of the team-based play that other customers enjoy.

I still don't see why team-based has to mean "shackled at the ankle" such that if one idiot fucks up, everyone pays.

You want to see this philosophy in action without the WoW or FF name to sell it? Just look at HotS. It flopped. Flopped hard.

Why? Many reasons but a big one is the group XP system. All it takes is some numbskull fucking around on some corner of the map, screwing over XP accumulation, and you have basically lost the game. You can quit right there and then.

[SodiumChloride]

Discussions on "HotS flopping" aside (I don't see where people get that idea, but whatever) you're pretty much describing "team play" in a nutshell. Of course you lose to another team if they're playing well and part of your team isn't. Or of course you fail the encounter if it demands X level of performance and your team is only managing X-1.

These aren't "problems". They're exactly the design intent of the content. The issue is that you just don't like that sort of design. But it's not a problem with the game, it's just an individual choosing the wrong game/content.

If you want to rely on yourself and yourself only, there are million games that cater to that. Competitive games, challenging RPGs, casual games, mobile games, whatever. There's no reason to take games predicated on that team play and change them into something else.

Just saying there are other ways to create multiplayer content that doesn't result in excessive amount of toxicity over "unfulfilled expectations" and the resulting self-isolation by a good chunk of the player base to avoid said toxicity.

[SodiumChloride]

You're right, there is. And those ways exist in various and sundry other games - and even these games!

If you're expecting FFXIV/WoW/Rift/SWtoR/etc raiding to embrace those concepts though...well, that's going to leave you disappointed.

Thing is ... why not?

You like the toxicity and other players avoiding you?

[Lathais]

I don't understand why most people can't be in agreement that FFXIV's way may very well be a good solution.

Run your tools, keep your pie hole shut.

Because it is not available to console users. Since PS4 will not allow third party add-ons, it needs to be included in the game. Once thing this game has done very well is treating PC and Console users the same, letting them have access to all the same things. This is the one area where that does not hold true.

In addition, while you probably won't get in trouble for using ACT it is technically not allowed. It is also not entirely accurate all the time. I can run it on my PC and my Wife can run it on hers and we will have pretty drastic differences in our results sometimes.

[Granyala]

I don't get the whole toxicity thing to be honest.

WoW is supposed to be "as toxic as they come" yet I have plenty of 2xK DPS players in my random mythic dungeon runs. Do you know how often I have seen them get flamed, recount posed in the last 2 months?
-0-
That's right. Not a single one.

Do you know how often I got flamed when we wiped or people died? (I play Holy priest)
-0-

Just where is that toxicity where everyone gets kicked as soon as it is convenient?

[Granyala]

Ah, is this where you turn it around and assume that I like <all the bad stuff> that your solution is meant to address, just because I don't agree with the solution?

His solution is only supposed to address one thing: the mattering of his ability to perform. Because judging by his posts he clearly can't perform even on a basic level that the encounter demands, because if he could, he would see the whole "toxicity" thing as the non issue, created by a few asshats you will find in every online game, it is.