[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Granyala]

Fina-freakin'-lly. I have sincerely no idea why some of you want to aim for another Anima weapons, but I finally got my last Ore & have 5 Oils in my inventory. First Deneb, then the world Hyperconductive Deneb.

Grats. I'm at around 30/80 now. :X

[Sesshomaru]

Obviously spoiler. Apparently, this is the Anima entity.

Me fancying my new Deneb


Aaaand it's gone for my new Hyperconductive Deneb!


I need to call my weapon Deneb-chan. Because of the Anima within, of course.

(Gyazo can't handle scaling, unfortunately)

[SodiumChloride]

Because the would be a complete redesign and re-balance of all current world content.

Also, if you think WoW is copying this, you are wrong. WoW has been doing this for ages already. Taunts disabled, Diminishing returns on stuns and other effects, there are others too but it's been too long since I have played WoW to remember them all. Rift has done this for ages already as well, at one point even having an entire separate soul(think old talent trees in WoW) for each class that was used only in PvP. Skyforge also does this, with some abilities acting differently in PvP than in PvE.

I do agree though, going from solo to group content is a very different feel. What I don't get is why you think this is a bad thing and that it needs to change. I like that. If solo play was the same as group play, well, then what's the point. Sometimes I feel like group play, so I can group up. Sometimes, I don't feel like playing that way, so I can play solo and have a different experience.

The bad thing about current world content is that has to be dead easy because you are effectively playing 1/3 of a character - tank, heal or DPS.

Mobs can't hit too hard because 2 out of 3 roles can't take that kind of damage.
Mobs can't take too long to kill because 2 out of 3 roles will run out of HP as they can't heal.
Mobs can't have too huge of a HP pool because 2 out of 3 roles will take ages to kill said mobs.

It isn't really compelling gameplay when the character you play is tuned for group content and can't handle solo content properly unless it was faceroll.

To give an example of how to work around this ...

Let every class have a solo load out and a group load out.

solo load out potency = 1 tank + 1 heal + 1 DPS
group load out potency = 4 tank/heal/DPS + the rest at 0

So depending on situation you can use different load out. Soloing with the group load out will suck and group play with the solo loadout will be inefficient.

[Lathais]

Mobs can't hit too hard because 2 out of 3 roles can't take that kind of damage.
Mobs can't take too long to kill because 2 out of 3 roles will run out of HP as they can't heal.
Mobs can't have too huge of a HP pool because 2 out of 3 roles will take ages to kill said mobs.

Chocobo pretty much entirely solves this. I use a balanced build on mine and he helps fill in that gap nicely.

If I am a tank, he provides extra damage and a bit of healing.
If I am a healer, he provides extra DPS and a little bit of tanking(though I normally rip off him pretty quickly). In addition, at least as SCH, I have access to Cleric Stance which increases my DPS.
If I am DPS, then he provides enough healing for me to stay alive as I kill along with taking at least a couple hits.

Also, they are talking about adding more companions(retainers possibly?) with a FFXII Gambit-like system, so you'll have a companion to fill in the roles you need. I think this is interesting and nice, but the Chocobo already does a pretty good job of filling in the gaps. It would be nice if the chocobo was a better tank and it was easier to swap specs though. The aforementioned problem of not being able to que for dungeons with him out would also need to be addressed. This are much better solutions than an entire redesign and balance of the current combat system though, as they are just simple improvements and additions.

Once again you are talking about a complete redesign and balance of the entire combat system to solve a "problem" that there are already solutions for in the game, with more coming. Just think about how easy some of the class/job quests you get every 5 levels would be if all the sudden a Lancer could heal himself or a BRD could be tanky. All these quests would need to be re-balanced or become stupidly easy.

Again though, I would like to stress that it's not that think these are bad ideas. I think these would be great ideas....in a new game designed around the concept. Attempting to put something like this in to a game that already has an established combat system would mean re-balancing about 50% of the game around it. Just not something that is even worth considering doing IMO.

[Kazgrel]

Chocobo pretty much entirely solves this. I use a balanced build on mine and he helps fill in that gap nicely.

If I am a tank, he provides extra damage and a bit of healing.
If I am a healer, he provides extra DPS and a little bit of tanking(though I normally rip off him pretty quickly). In addition, at least as SCH, I have access to Cleric Stance which increases my DPS.
If I am DPS, then he provides enough healing for me to stay alive as I kill along with taking at least a couple hits.

I found that setting the bird up as a tankabo is pretty much a waste; I was able to pull mobs off of it using Blizzard spells alone as a BLM. Even having fed it whatever the food was to boost emnity generation, I still ripped mobs off of it with nearly no effort. Switched it to full on healer and it's a heck of a lot more effective; with either set up, I was tanking mobs with my face, so having the bird heal me instead of doing derp all damage is a lot more useful.

Having a healer mode bird as a tank is pretty much a ticket to god mode for fate grinding.

[Graeham]

A bit of a dumb question, perhaps, but as a DRG what's the best materia to put on my equipment?

[SodiumChloride]

Chocobo pretty much entirely solves this. I use a balanced build on mine and he helps fill in that gap nicely.

If I am a tank, he provides extra damage and a bit of healing.
If I am a healer, he provides extra DPS and a little bit of tanking(though I normally rip off him pretty quickly). In addition, at least as SCH, I have access to Cleric Stance which increases my DPS.
If I am DPS, then he provides enough healing for me to stay alive as I kill along with taking at least a couple hits.

Also, they are talking about adding more companions(retainers possibly?) with a FFXII Gambit-like system, so you'll have a companion to fill in the roles you need. I think this is interesting and nice, but the Chocobo already does a pretty good job of filling in the gaps. It would be nice if the chocobo was a better tank and it was easier to swap specs though. The aforementioned problem of not being able to que for dungeons with him out would also need to be addressed. This are much better solutions than an entire redesign and balance of the current combat system though, as they are just simple improvements and additions.

Once again you are talking about a complete redesign and balance of the entire combat system to solve a "problem" that there are already solutions for in the game, with more coming. Just think about how easy some of the class/job quests you get every 5 levels would be if all the sudden a Lancer could heal himself or a BRD could be tanky. All these quests would need to be re-balanced or become stupidly easy.

Again though, I would like to stress that it's not that think these are bad ideas. I think these would be great ideas....in a new game designed around the concept. Attempting to put something like this in to a game that already has an established combat system would mean re-balancing about 50% of the game around it. Just not something that is even worth considering doing IMO.

Not everyone has a leveled Chocobo though ... I'm quite sure SE takes that into account when designing the content.

Retainers ... I doubt it. We can't even have minions out with the Chocobo out. You want a retainer with gear and all by your side? SE is weirdly cheap with the polycount budget.

Either way, Chocobo or retainer, gameplay/challenge is what I'm concern about. Not just surviving mobs. Having a Chocobo dropping heals on you automatically ... is that gameplay?

It doesn't take redesigning the combat system. Just add extra abilities like they do with PVP and a "mode" switch to enable/strengthen and disable/weaken specific abilities depending mode chosen. It's more an addition with no change to existing combat mechanics in group content.

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I found that setting the bird up as a tankabo is pretty much a waste; I was able to pull mobs off of it using Blizzard spells alone as a BLM. Even having fed it whatever the food was to boost emnity generation, I still ripped mobs off of it with nearly no effort. Switched it to full on healer and it's a heck of a lot more effective; with either set up, I was tanking mobs with my face, so having the bird heal me instead of doing derp all damage is a lot more useful.

Having a healer mode bird as a tank is pretty much a ticket to god mode for fate grinding.

Ya, the tank spec is worthless. It can't hold aggro for shit.

That said, ACN/SMN tank pets aren't that strong in the aggro department either ... with decent gear you really got to hold back. With the Chocobo ... it's like 1/3 the aggro gen of ACN/SMN pets.

[Sesshomaru]

A bit of a dumb question, perhaps, but as a DRG what's the best materia to put on my equipment?

Crit where possible, Det elsewhere. Of course, if you are raiding, going for Acc gives more dps per point under the cap.

[Lathais]

I found that setting the bird up as a tankabo is pretty much a waste; I was able to pull mobs off of it using Blizzard spells alone as a BLM. Even having fed it whatever the food was to boost emnity generation, I still ripped mobs off of it with nearly no effort. Switched it to full on healer and it's a heck of a lot more effective; with either set up, I was tanking mobs with my face, so having the bird heal me instead of doing derp all damage is a lot more useful.

Having a healer mode bird as a tank is pretty much a ticket to god mode for fate grinding.

Yeah, the tanking leaves a lot to be desired, even as a SCH you can rip threat off him pretty easily. Again though, improving the chocobos ability to tank and making it easier to switch specs, or if the companions they add handle this better, then that is a much more elegant solution than basically starting from scratch.

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Not everyone has a leveled Chocobo though ... I'm quite sure SE takes that into account when designing the content.

Than maybe people should level their Chocobo.

Retainers ... I doubt it. We can't even have minions out with the Chocobo out. You want a retainer with gear and all by your side? SE is weirdly cheap with the polycount budget.

I read somewhere that they are already planning this type of companion system with FFXII-like Gambit system. In this thread I think.

Either way, Chocobo or retainer, gameplay/challenge is what I'm concern about. Not just surviving mobs.

Well that's just the thing, with a better companion system, the class/job gets to retain it's entire identity. It gets to have the same style of gameplay in or out of a group, the only thing that changes in in solo-mode you have an AI companion that you can adjust the AI rather than relying on other players. If allowed, this also opens up the ability to "solo" group content with your companions.

It doesn't take redesigning the combat system. Just add extra abilities like they do with PVP and a "mode" switch to enable/strengthen and disable/weaken specific abilities depending mode chosen. It's more an addition with no change to existing combat mechanics in group content.

It does mean redesigning all the abilities in order to have a "solo mode" and a "group mode." It requires a redesign or addition to the UI in order to accommodate those changes as well. The largest thing though, is that all current open world content and solo quests would need to be re-balanced around players having these modifiable abilities. Since these different abilities are toggled by the user, they also have to consider how it would affect group play as there are now many more options for jobs groups. There would basically become different specs for each class at that point, which makes balancing more of a headache. You could make it so that it automatically turns off in a group, but now you have engineering headaches as you have to turn that off, then back on and have the system remember how you had your abilities set up, which takes resources. There would also need to be a better way to save action bars because how you have them set up in solo would likely vary quite drastically from what you would want in a group, taking more software engineering work and resources to store that data.

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Ya, the tank spec is worthless. It can't hold aggro for shit.

That said, ACN/SMN tank pets aren't that strong in the aggro department either ... with decent gear you really got to hold back. With the Chocobo ... it's like 1/3 the aggro gen of ACN/SMN pets.

So why not just fix that small issue instead of having to re-balance half the game?

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Here it is:http://gamerescape.com/2015/03/09/pa...naoki-yoshida/

Relevant part:

They are considering a gambit-system for the Chocobo Companion (and Magitek). This system is pretty definite, but includes a few aspects, and is perhaps a year or so away from release.

I guess it was speculation where I read someone thinking that retainers could be used for this. However, they are already planning on adding additional companions(Magitech) and will be adding a gambit system to companions. Along with this, one would assume, they will be getting new abilities, hopefully including better taunts/threat gen, that you would be able to prioritize in your gambits.

However, that was discussed at PAX East last year. So it's been about a year, hopefully we will hear more about this soon.

[SodiumChloride]

...

So why not just fix that small issue instead of having to re-balance half the game?

Turning it on and off isn't a big deal. You have Cleric stance FFS.

The change to existing abilities in solo mode will mostly be depowering (or alternatively empowering when in group mode) or just outright disabled. Solo mode's additional abilities are there to round out the player's capabilities.

Current content need not be touched. Just design future content with it in mind. Have solo mode only be available above 60. This has been SE modus op for the longest of time, i.e. they don't change up old stuff.

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Here it is:http://gamerescape.com/2015/03/09/pa...naoki-yoshida/

Relevant part:


I guess it was speculation where I read someone thinking that retainers could be used for this. However, they are already planning on adding additional companions(Magitech) and will be adding a gambit system to companions. Along with this, one would assume, they will be getting new abilities, hopefully including better taunts/threat gen, that you would be able to prioritize in your gambits.

However, that was discussed at PAX East last year. So it's been about a year, hopefully we will hear more about this soon.

That seems more likely.

i.e. Better/more controllable AI for the chocobo as well as a new "skin".

[Lathais]

Turning it on and off isn't a big deal. You have Cleric stance FFS.

The change to existing abilities in solo mode will mostly be depowering (or alternatively empowering when in group mode) or just outright disabled. Solo mode's additional abilities are there to round out the player's capabilities.

Current content need not be touched. Just design future content with it in mind. Have solo mode only be available above 60. This has been SE modus op for the longest of time, i.e. they don't change up old stuff.

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That seems more likely.

i.e. Better/more controllable AI for the chocobo as well as a new "skin".

But all Cleric Stance does is swap INT and MND stats. That's far far easier than changing the basic functionality of most of a classes abilities.

I guess you could make it only work at 60+ but then, doesn't that kinda defeat half the purpose of the system? I don't know about you, but at level 60 there is not a lot of soloing that I do. It's mostly group content. So it would not help people leveling alt classes/jobs or new players in the least. Seems to be an expensive system that will only effect people who solo at max level. Waste of development time there.

[SodiumChloride]

But all Cleric Stance does is swap INT and MND stats. That's far far easier than changing the basic functionality of most of a classes abilities.

SE will be rebalancing everything for the next expansion anyway ...

I guess you could make it only work at 60+ but then, doesn't that kinda defeat half the purpose of the system? I don't know about you, but at level 60 there is not a lot of soloing that I do. It's mostly group content. So it would not help people leveling alt classes/jobs or new players in the least. Seems to be an expensive system that will only effect people who solo at max level. Waste of development time there.

That's kind of the point isn't it? To enable the creation of more interesting open world content.

It will be utilized pass Lv60 too.

[Wrecktangle]

So you don't answer my questions, don't address the issues I pointed out and then expect me to respond to your questions and points?

So I'll try again. If you think the game is just mediocre, why do you play it?

Do you really think there is a chance of them completely redesigning and re-balancing the entire combat system?

Do you really think that a Megathread about FFXIV in a FFXIV sub-forum is really a good spot to discuss other games?

Please put some time and effort into your responses for the sake of our discussion. This post is not intended to pick apart anything you say or attack your decisions. It is simply trying to get answers for the question repeatedly ignored.

Ok fair point. While I've answered most of these questions except the third one in some way shape or form, they haven't been in a single solitary response, so I'll gladly oblige assuming you'll extend the same courtesy.

1) I don't play the game currently because I am unhappy with the game in its current state. However, I have enjoyed a majority of the time I spent in Eorzea as well as a NUMEROUS, almost ENDLESS # of games that were also mediocre and enjoyed them tremendously. I like different games for various reasons. Note that while I may enjoy them, it does not imply that they have no room to improve or that they are anything better than mediocre.

2) Completely redesigning is not what anyone here wants or is referring too. Some fresh and exciting ideas though are definitely welcome. I think that your statement of do I really think there is a chance is ultimately irrelevant. It doesn't matter if there is a chance or not. Part of the fun of games is discussing things, as probable or improbable as they may be.

3) Yes I REALLY do think that a Megathread about FFXIV in a FFXIV sub-forum is really a good spot to discuss other games in relationship to FF14 and vice-versa. I see literally no issue with this.

[Lathais]

Ok fair point. While I've answered most of these questions except the third one in some way shape or form, they haven't been in a single solitary response, so I'll gladly oblige assuming you'll extend the same courtesy.

You know what they say about assuming, it makes an ass out of you and me, so I'll be an ass and not respond now.






j/k, I will respond, but I am now in the last hour of work where I actually have stuff to do, then go home, feed daughter, get her to bed then maybe spend some time gaming before I pass out and do it all again tomorrow. Will get back with you then.

[SodiumChloride]

Just discovered this old tech demo (pre-1.0),



The amount of glass in the demo would have given FFXIV's current deferred rendering engine a fit. The level of reflection ... I think we might only see that in FFXV.

[Sorrior]

SE will be rebalancing everything for the next expansion anyway ...



That's kind of the point isn't it? To enable the creation of more interesting open world content.

It will be utilized pass Lv60 too.

They don't work like blizzard. If this expansion is anything to go by they won't be overhauling classes. Refining some tweaksyeah but overhauls are ONLY done as worst cases(see WAR in 2.0)

[SodiumChloride]

They don't work like blizzard. If this expansion is anything to go by they won't be overhauling classes. Refining some tweaksyeah but overhauls are ONLY done as worst cases(see WAR in 2.0)

No overhauls but rebalanced nonetheless. It's inevitable as they add new spells.

e.g. Fester hits a lot less relative to mob HP at 60 than at 50 due to new additions like Deathwyrm Stance and Deathflare - i.e. they pretty much just gave us more buttons to push for the same result.

[Graeham]

Hopefully they won't add too many new abilities for 4.0 and will instead focus on adding additional traits or even combining some of the more similar abilities in an attempt to ease the inevitable button bloat. I don't want sweeping changes to how each job works during each expansion because that is one of the main reasons as to why I grew weary of WoW.

Though I suppose there's the huge benefit of not being limited to one class per character so shifting to another class doesn't require sacrificing progress elsewhere.

[Faroth]

Just discovered this old tech demo (pre-1.0),

The amount of glass in the demo would have given FFXIV's current deferred rendering engine a fit. The level of reflection ... I think we might only see that in FFXV.

I can't imagine releasing an MMO needing a damn super computer to run it.

As Yoshida has been quite open and blunt about, 1.0 suffered from "everything be pretty and detailed" rather than "everything work and be fun." A barrel in the back of a room does not need the same poly-count and texture level as a player character model.... but in 1.0 they did. O_o

That said, the video is really cool. I wonder where that would have been placed in Eorzea location-wise.

[Granyala]

Well why not?
Why not use the vast resources modern high end PCs can offer?

As long as it doesn't come at the cost of actual gameplay/content I see nothing wrong with optional insane GFX.

That bein said: FF-XIV looks awesome already. Esp with Re-Shade sweet FX.