[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Rogalicus]

It would leave you unable to leave a city without being in a group. If there's no one in your level range or interested in doing the same content then you're completely out of luck. New players coming in without friends wouldn't even get out of the starting gate before being turned away.

As far as I'm aware, that's exact FFXI gameplay, which he probably would like to recreate.

[Katchii]

I think FFXIV strikes a good balance between group and solo content, the issue is that the group content in the world is dead on arrival except for the random hunts.

Eureka is at least group content because it does require communication and coordination. However, being forced to be in a group to do anything at all worthwhile for the relic or to progress at all in Eureka I think is detrimental. I agree that being in a group should be the most optimal, but having going solo be completely impossible or irrelevant is just not the way it should be, even in an MMO, in this day and age.

If I could putter along by myself in Eureka and make decent progress and join a group when I want to or have the time/ desire, I'd be there. But the fact that I can't do ANYTHING meaningful in a reasonable amount of time solo and being forced to conform to the community mentality for the transition into Pagos of being at least level 25 before being useful and therefore not welcome (there are exceptions, but I'm not going to constantly hop into Pagos to try and find one kind soul that would be willing to carry me until I'm useful), means that I just won't do the content.

Hardcore, group progression only games like FFXI used to be just don't fit anymore, IMO.

- - - Updated - - -

As far as I'm aware, that's exact FFXI gameplay, which he probably would like to recreate.

Even FFXI doesn't do this crap anymore. That's where the trust system is coming from, FFXI did it first.

[threads]

i like eureka because its like a world boss train. for all the small group content in the game it's nice running around with hundreds of people and just killing stuff. maybe i'm just weird but i've gotten 2 pyros weapons and i'm working on a third before the next area comes out.

pagos was pretty shit though.

[Faroth]

I think FFXIV strikes a good balance between group and solo content, the issue is that the group content in the world is dead on arrival except for the random hunts.

I'd like to see a little bit of a remix on the existing systems. Take the idea of hunts and Fates, combine them, and mix them with Eureka's rewards with treasure chests and untradeable glamour items, barding, etc. Add a splash of WoW's World Quests where it would allow a FATE to be active for a length of time and you just need to meet requirements to complete it rather than it going away and with the right incentives and difficulty to the enemies, it would be a fun thing to design as world 4 man content.

That splash of WoW's World Quests would allow some to be 4 man content and some to be solo'able as well.

If I could putter along by myself in Eureka and make decent progress and join a group when I want to or have the time/ desire, I'd be there. But the fact that I can't do ANYTHING meaningful in a reasonable amount of time solo and being forced to conform to the community mentality for the transition into Pagos of being at least level 25 before being useful and therefore not welcome (there are exceptions, but I'm not going to constantly hop into Pagos to try and find one kind soul that would be willing to carry me until I'm useful), means that I just won't do the content.

I was doing my challenge log solo last night. It was a bit of a slog, but doable and constant on SAM without much down time. I feel like there should be a little chance of getting treasure chests or something from mobs so at least there's a little benefit to it instead of just the FATE train.

[Rogalicus]

Paraphrasing: This counts because they fit in my narrartive!

Funny how that works both ways.

How is not wanting solo content in every instance of the game short sighted?

Because that leaves players with less options in game where already most of the endgame content needs groups.

I just suggested revitalizing old world content instead making them solo

Again, how requiring forced grouping in content with already low pool of players would revitalize it?

[Katchii]

I'd like to see a little bit of a remix on the existing systems. Take the idea of hunts and Fates, combine them, and mix them with Eureka's rewards with treasure chests and untradeable glamour items, barding, etc. Add a splash of WoW's World Quests where it would allow a FATE to be active for a length of time and you just need to meet requirements to complete it rather than it going away and with the right incentives and difficulty to the enemies, it would be a fun thing to design as world 4 man content.

That splash of WoW's World Quests would allow some to be 4 man content and some to be solo'able as well.

I agree. FATEs as they are just don't really work well. If they could be active constantly but you could only get credit for them once every 30+ minutes or something I think that would be nice. The problem is the reward. They're flat out not worth doing in current zones. If FATEs were worthwhile I have no doubt people would be grinding them just like they did in ARR and to a point in Heavensward.

I was doing my challenge log solo last night. It was a bit of a slog, but doable and constant on SAM without much down time. I feel like there should be a little chance of getting treasure chests or something from mobs so at least there's a little benefit to it instead of just the FATE train.

The challenge log is doable, but calling it a "bit of a slog" is, IMO, a pretty big understatement. At least based off my experience doing it in Anemos, it takes far too long to kill anything that counts for some of those challenges and, I know this will sound stupid but whatever, has a pretty high chance of you dying because of mob density and aggro rules for some of them. Doing it in a group is just SO MUCH more effective, efficient and less risky that doing it solo just feels like a waste of time to me when I could be doing something else that progresses my character FAR more efficiently.

I think that's the main issue for me. Doing it in a group makes doing it worthwhile because it's efficient. Soloing is highly inefficient, and there are other alternatives available for character progression that are more efficient than doing it solo, like roulettes, dungeon grinding for tomes, etc...

- - - Updated - - -

How is world content not being soloable, especially in MMORPG like FFXIV, confines every player in the starting town? Just to point it out because you maybe dont get the terminology. Questing, which is a solo activity in any mmorpg since world of warcraft, is not world content. Something that let you visit every area in the game. Thank god for ffxiv you actually need to visit dungeon in ffxiv while leveling and not reach max level while you playing a very bad single player rpg

I also confess that i dont get your mental leaps. How is me not agreeing with your opinion that world content should be soloable concludes into not leaving a city with a group? This isnt even a strawman, this has nothing to do with what i orginaly said.

How is questing, which happens out in the world, not world content? What exactly are you considering "world content" in your argument? I think that seems to be where a lot of people are having difficulty understanding your viewpoint.

Just to set the tone and context for where some of us are coming from...many of us played FFXI and MMO's in general prior to WoW, where pretty much anything you did out in the world required a group if you didn't want to be at a huge risk of dying, or if you wanted a chance to actually kill anything worth a damn. In FFXI, you were flat out required to be in a group to get ANYTHING done unless you severely out leveled the content. Monsters that were worth decent xp required multiple people to kill.

[Eleccybubb]

Are you being dense? I stated that imo the game had to many solo stuff for me. You were the one who made the incomplete list of solo content for....whatever reason

He does that every couple of weeks in this thread.

Don't understand the obsession with posting misinformation about a game but /shrug.

[Faroth]

Tap the breaks and take a breath folks. I think we're somewhat talking past each other and going on our perceptions more than each other's intents.

I also confess that i dont get your mental leaps. How is me not agreeing with your opinion that world content should be soloable concludes into not leaving a city with a group? This isnt even a strawman, this has nothing to do with what i orginaly said.

I think the connection was being made to things like EQ and FFXI where the game was designed for all mobs to be farmed at a camp spot in groups. With those designs, players really can't do much solo, so when it's said the world should be fairly difficult to do any content solo, that's what first comes to mind. It may be an unintended direction, but that's what came to mind, I think.

What I think might make more sense to bridge the gap between both views is something like this:

World content definition: Content that takes place in the open world, outside of an instance dungeon/raid. By this definition, that does include questing, FATEs, hunts, treasure maps (but not including the portals they can lead to), and gathering*.

*note - Gathering is acknowledged to be a different type of world content, but it does take place in the world so it applies to this definition.

In my mind, you could separate the two and still have both in an MMO world:

Solo Content
Questing & Fates - These would remain solo content as they are now. You have mobs in certain areas or Fates that spawn in certain areas, that are the object of quests or the Fate itself. Quests would send you to these areas to kill the mobs as it does now, etc.

Group Content, because MMO worlds shouldn't be 100% safe
Fates, Treasure hunts, and hunts currently

Certain areas of zones could be designed a little more like old school MMOs where the mobs are more compact, harder to kill, and drop some worthwhile loot (or at least a chance to drop). Certain group identified quests could send you here. Think of them as mini-dungeons in the open world. These would pretty much require a group to delve into. They could be designed so a group would fight to a certain point and have a safer spot to stop and rest to regain mana, etc before pushing further in. The goal would be to get to the deepest part and kill a named mob. Leashes wouldn't break within these areas, so it's unwise to go riding a mount to the center. Taking a page from WoW, you could even have the area guaranteed to shoot you out of the sky on a flying mount so even flight doesn't skip the fight into the midst of the area.

Honestly, you could take this further with entire zones being designed more with this design in mind. A player congregation hub at the entrance and various monster camps/bases/outdoor dungeons in that zone. It would be a bit like Eureka without the "only grind or FATE train" and it would be in the open world so you could arguably queue for roulettes while running if you wanted (4 man group could still be in queue for Alliance raid or normal raid, for example).

Letting it be a source of tomestones, crafting drops, untradeable glamour items, could be incentives to try it out. You could take a page from Diadem and have gathering in the area, but actually require players to protect the gatherers while they go about their business.

My simplest example would be to think about Coerthas in ARR. You had a stronghold of the Ixal in there - that could be the example of a 4 man group area while other parts of the zone are as they are in game and allow for solo'able questing. Add 1 or 2 other spots that are similar to the Ixal so you have a blend of group areas and solo quest areas to explore in each zone.

I agree. FATEs as they are just don't really work well. If they could be active constantly but you could only get credit for them once every 30+ minutes or something I think that would be nice. The problem is the reward. They're flat out not worth doing in current zones. If FATEs were worthwhile I have no doubt people would be grinding them just like they did in ARR and to a point in Heavensward.

The challenge log is doable, but calling it a "bit of a slog" is, IMO, a pretty big understatement. At least based off my experience doing it in Anemos, it takes far too long to kill anything that counts for some of those challenges and, I know this will sound stupid but whatever, has a pretty high chance of you dying because of mob density and aggro rules for some of them. Doing it in a group is just SO MUCH more effective, efficient and less risky that doing it solo just feels like a waste of time to me when I could be doing something else that progresses my character FAR more efficiently.

I think that's the main issue for me. Doing it in a group makes doing it worthwhile because it's efficient. Soloing is highly inefficient, and there are other alternatives available for character progression that are more efficient than doing it solo, like roulettes, dungeon grinding for tomes, etc...

I'd also like it if Eureka got a dash of Heaven on High so when you left, you got a portion of xp. I'm always cool with more variety on leveling other jobs.

[Katchii]

You can only be confused this if you want to be confused. Nobody, including devs like SE and Blizz, refer to questing when they talk about world content. Its pretty obvious what i meant.
Whatever, im gonna remove myself from the discussion, i have no intresst to convince people who think everything in a mmo should be soloable (lol). Everyone is entitled to their opinion, i made prertty clear what i meant

My point was that old school MMO's prior to WoW required groups for pretty much everything, including quests, and were considered world content because it took place out in the world. A developer shouldn't have to specifically call a quest "world content" for it to be considered that. Especially considering that in WoW, the game you're quoting here, a "World Quest" is literally identical to quests you picked up earlier, you just automatically pick it up when you get into range rather than initiating it via talking to an NPC. So again, what content specifically are you referencing when you say "world content?"

If you can't be asked to clarify your position without being a condescending dickwad you shouldn't be trying to engage in a conversation or discussion. You obviously failed at making it clear what you meant if you had several people not understanding what you meant. It's not our job to interpret and understand what you say, it's your job to make sure you're understood.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd also like it if Eureka got a dash of Heaven on High so when you left, you got a portion of xp. I'm always cool with more variety on leveling other jobs.

If Eureka could be used to level other jobs, like gettign xp from FATEs or mob kills and/or possibly an xp bonus when leaving based on your performance/ activities I'm not sure I'd ever have left. That's what I'm primarily doing right now is just leveling other jobs that aren't max. Since you have to be devoted completely to Eureka while you're there I find it difficult to justify spending time there considering the other avenues for character advancement. I can't do beast tribe quests, I can't craft, gather, or do ANYTHING other than Eureka.

So my choices are always...do I spend time in Eureka doing nothing but leveling up so I can finally enter Pagos and get into a group or should I do...anything else that gets me far more character advancement and flexibility? It's a pretty easy choice for me.

[StrawberryZebra]

How is world content not being soloable, especially in MMORPG like FFXIV, confines every player in the starting town? Just to point it out because you maybe dont get the terminology. Questing, which is a solo activity in any mmorpg since world of warcraft, is not world content. Something that let you visit every area in the game. Thank god for ffxiv you actually need to visit dungeon in ffxiv while leveling and not reach max level while you playing a very bad single player rpg

With questing, and by extension the MSQ and most of the side quests that exist, removed from your critera you're left with very little actual content. Gathering and crafting would be a solo activity too, as would exploration, unlocking flying and so on.

All you'd have left as "world content" would be FATEs - And on my server the boss ones that require you to group up pretty much never get cleared. Where the solo ones are usually completed long before they run out. Having to group up for something anyone can just run into is a huge headache, especially if you're leveling solo where it effectively halts your progress until you find 3 other people before the timer runs out. Which is why hardly anyone bothers with them unless they're already grouped.

You version of "group world content" already exists and seems to be highly unpopular compared to the alternatives. Which is the elephant in the room you're conveniently ignoring.

As far as I'm aware, that's exact FFXI gameplay, which he probably would like to recreate.

Entirely possible, I've never played FF11 so I can't say if you're right about it's design or not. I don't really mind if he wants to recreate it or not, but I'm going to need more of an argument than "Because MMORPG!" to be persuaded that it offers benefits the current system doesn't.

[Veluren]

You know, on the topic a few days ago on NieR not making sense in XIV, it was made pretty clear that Omega is from a world an impossible distance away, and XIV's take on Omega's design wouldn't seem out of place in Automata's world.

Kinda makes you wonder how long they had been planning on making this crossover a thing or if it was just convenient.

[Granyala]

Well Haydelins Story and the Ascians pretty much opened pandoras Box on a Multiverse.
We have other planets / galaxies AND parallel universes.

So, basically, anything can be connected to Eorzea at this point.

I like Sci-Fi, so it doesn't bother me at all.

[Faroth]

Somewhat unrelated, but in regards to the sci-fi elements.....Funny enough, Gamerant has a brief article from Fan Fest Paris where Yoshida was asked what he'd like to see in the next Final Fantasy entry (so, Final Fantasy 16).

He said he'd like to see a more fantastical world with less technology and definitely no mechas. He added to his statement with a joke saying they have enough trouble with the Garleans having that technology already.

My friend has said for a while that he thinks the single player games are probably going to basically be sci-fi fantasy as the mainstay similar to 12, 13, and 15 and that high(er) fantasy style of 1-4 and 9 is pretty much not going to see a come back as 14 fills that niche (though it's more 6'ish blend of fantasy and steampunk'ish elements). Seeing Yoshida say he'd like to see a more fantasy driven entry again gives me a little bit of hope.

I'm fairly sure Yoshida has a little pull in Square now, considering he basically pulled them back to profitability and has been well received plus promoted with additional responsibilities next to FFXIV.

[Granyala]

Personally, I don't mind the blend of tech and high fantasy.
High fantasy alone is pretty boring because either they use "magic" to explain everything or they severely limit their universe.

[dope_danny]

Somewhat unrelated, but in regards to the sci-fi elements.....Funny enough, Gamerant has a brief article from Fan Fest Paris where Yoshida was asked what he'd like to see in the next Final Fantasy entry (so, Final Fantasy 16).

He said he'd like to see a more fantastical world with less technology and definitely no mechas. He added to his statement with a joke saying they have enough trouble with the Garleans having that technology already.

My friend has said for a while that he thinks the single player games are probably going to basically be sci-fi fantasy as the mainstay similar to 12, 13, and 15 and that high(er) fantasy style of 1-4 and 9 is pretty much not going to see a come back as 14 fills that niche (though it's more 6'ish blend of fantasy and steampunk'ish elements). Seeing Yoshida say he'd like to see a more fantasy driven entry again gives me a little bit of hope.

I'm fairly sure Yoshida has a little pull in Square now, considering he basically pulled them back to profitability and has been well received plus promoted with additional responsibilities next to FFXIV.

My first reaction to that interview was just 'oh yeah a final fantasy thats setting is more demons souls or fire emblem could be neat' but thinking on it after a year of ivalice raids and viera coming back and square talking about a cancelled tactics 2 when they are never vocal about the man behind the curtain really makes me wonder if there isn't a new ivalice game since pre 12 they were just game of thronesesque 'yeah theres magic but its mostly knights vs bandits and hired thugs in politcal coups' and after XV i could honestly see a medieval tactics era ivalice 'road trip' final fantasy but its horseback and just continues the warring states idea.

[StrawberryZebra]

My friend has said for a while that he thinks the single player games are probably going to basically be sci-fi fantasy as the mainstay similar to 12, 13, and 15 and that high(er) fantasy style of 1-4 and 9 is pretty much not going to see a come back as 14 fills that niche (though it's more 6'ish blend of fantasy and steampunk'ish elements). Seeing Yoshida say he'd like to see a more fantasy driven entry again gives me a little bit of hope.

In my opinion, Squenix have always done their best work when they combine Fantasy and Sci-fi elements. FF4 had spaceships, tanks and other relatively modern technologies co-existing within a fantasy setting, the fact that the climax of the game is on the moon really says it all. FF6 and 7 had a lot of steampunk and similar elements to them and 8 was a more futuristic setting complete with flying schools, spaceships and hi-tech cities. Even FF9 had Sci-fi areas and themes to it with the Terra areas and both Kuja and Zidanes backstory.

Outside of Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger spanned the range from medieval fantasy settings to post-apocalyptic futures and used time travel, another very common Sci-fi trope, as a core game mechanic.

I do think it's time for a more high fantasy themed single player FF game though. FF13 was released in 2010 and was heavilly Sci-fi themed, more recently FF15 was a more modern day setting with it's cars, phones and such. We've not had a proper Fantasy themed FF since 12 which was on the PS2 all the way back in 2006. I don't think it should be exclusively a Fantasy setting, but a step away from the Sci-fi and modern day settings would be a welcome break.

[Wrecktangle]

Agreed, but I'd take it a step further and have made a second gun wielding DPS class aligning with the Admirals usage. Make it the Corsair, maybe Musketeer..I don't know, just not what we ended up with.

Speaking personally I'm not ready to go that route yet (duplicate ish weapons). I'm all for the eventuality (Sword Saint as PLD DPS please) once they wind out of iconic stuff (and IMO they're getting REALLY close).

A thought I had driving to work today was borrowing from the Ninja Mudra concept and instead of having each move do something individually, you'd string together moves and have the finished combo have a different effect based on which order was used. Maybe a bit of both so it's not so GCD and latency dependent, so each move has a minor effect to make it useful by itself, but have the combined effect differ based on the order.

I'm actually a big fan of this idea, and @Faroth and I have discussed it previously. The main issue I have with it is that it invalidates NIN completely. It would need a full rework IMO. If every job is going to share the same kind of flow, then we need to find a new way to differentiate Ninjitsu. Again, I'm all for it, but obv NIN would need love.

You have no idea how badly I want to see a Dissidia x Guilty Gear crossover. A company like Arc know how to make excelent fighters that respect their source material, and Dissidia is a good license to outsource to a company that actually knows what they're doing.

And I really, really want to see Baiken doing those horrible Baiken things she does to angsty FF characters.

Honestly, I'd be happy if Arc just spent the next 2 years picking random IPs and making games for them. SE being next IMO. Beatrix, standard roster of course.

At this point in time, Eureka has three separate maps. Next week that will change to four. No matter the hour whenever I visit Anemos, Pagos or Pyros there's a number of players running around the maps. At least on Aether. That is a very strong contrast in regards to Diadem and Lord of Verminion - which both fell flat and barely attract any current interest.

The official forum - and even Reddit - also has a habit of attracting a lot of vocal players. They may very well hate Eureka - but they'll be very vocal about disliking it and claim that it's the worst thing ever. They usually proceed by saying that it's terrible and that nobody likes it - but it's flourishing whenever I visit.

You kinda brushed over a lot of the questions I asked you.

How do you know for a fact that Eureka detractors were a minority? What dataset do you have to support this claim? You can cite "oh its populated every time I go", but it isn't proof. You also cite 2 old content forms from expansions past not being relevant today as an example of Eureka being successful. That's not proof either.

I asked you then if you believe that Eureka would be heavily populated if the Relic was not in there.

Certain areas of zones could be designed a little more like old school MMOs where the mobs are more compact, harder to kill, and drop some worthwhile loot (or at least a chance to drop). Certain group identified quests could send you here. Think of them as mini-dungeons in the open world. These would pretty much require a group to delve into. They could be designed so a group would fight to a certain point and have a safer spot to stop and rest to regain mana, etc before pushing further in. The goal would be to get to the deepest part and kill a named mob. Leashes wouldn't break within these areas, so it's unwise to go riding a mount to the center. Taking a page from WoW, you could even have the area guaranteed to shoot you out of the sky on a flying mount so even flight doesn't skip the fight into the midst of the area.

This IMO is the one thing that Vanilla WoW did better than modern WoW, or even modern MMO gaming.

I remember going anywhere near the the elites in Redridge being a deathwish solo. Same thing with a lot of places in Duskwood. STV is another great example. I could go on. This methodology is important I firmly believe that. I wish FF14 would adopt it and expand it across multiple content forms. Look at something like raiding. It has normal mode and savage. (something for everyone, thats good). Dungeons? Nope. Open world? Nope. Side content? Nope. Eureka? Nope. It's all just generic niche targeted content.

I don't think it's good business sense to develop a ton of shallow single use content, rather than several deep welled systems, but that's me.

Honestly, you could take this further with entire zones being designed more with this design in mind. A player congregation hub at the entrance and various monster camps/bases/outdoor dungeons in that zone. It would be a bit like Eureka without the "only grind or FATE train" and it would be in the open world so you could arguably queue for roulettes while running if you wanted (4 man group could still be in queue for Alliance raid or normal raid, for example).

You've seen me mention this before. This is how I would have designed open world content in modern MMOs (and my dream MMO). It sounds good to me.

[threads]

anyone think it's weird that in the new trailer everyone's wearing new job gear except y'shtola? they showed gunbreaker as thancred's gear and ast as urianger and the drk on the WoL. what are the chances that y'shtola is actually a new job?

i remember some interview with yoshi-p around SB that mentioned they almost added a mystic job but changed their mind. hmm

[dope_danny]

anyone think it's weird that in the new trailer everyone's wearing new job gear except y'shtola? they showed gunbreaker as thancred's gear and ast as urianger and the drk on the WoL. what are the chances that y'shtola is actually a new job?

i remember some interview with yoshi-p around SB that mentioned they almost added a mystic job but changed their mind. hmm

Yoshi said "notice, she looks like a black mage" which considering Montoya has some folks thinking Yshtola is teasing Sage as the new job but after RDM/BLU in a year of each other another caster seems kind of unlikely right when they are saying they made GUN a tank because theres too many dps.

I'm personally hoping we get dancer as a support healer or maybe geomancer as a melee using 'fistweaver' style healer.

[Katchii]

anyone think it's weird that in the new trailer everyone's wearing new job gear except y'shtola? they showed gunbreaker as thancred's gear and ast as urianger and the drk on the WoL. what are the chances that y'shtola is actually a new job?

i remember some interview with yoshi-p around SB that mentioned they almost added a mystic job but changed their mind. hmm

Y'shtola seemed to be wearing clothing similar to Matoya's old robe...which would make sense considering she was actually referred to as Matoya by Urianger in that trailer. Not sure exactly what htat means her "class" is, but maybe it's whatever Matoya is/was.