[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Onikaroshi]

The level of blandness in HW dungeons compared to the new dungeons is mind blowing.

I exclude the hard modes because they are mostly rehashed versions of existing dungeons, and I don't think it is fair to pretend that they are entirely new content. Some are more novel than others, sure. I'd like to see more of them, but let's not pretend a hard mode and a brand new dungeon are equal. They aren't.

Notice how you skipped over the part where HW and EW have the same number of dungeons at launch.

Every one had the same dungeons at launch, it's irrelevant, it's what you do after launch that matters. And I liked hard mode mixing things up honestly. It's about getting dungeons rotated through Expert faster so you're having a dungeon in there for 6+ months.

They don't take as much dev time as a full done, i don't really see a reason they shouldn't do them.

And just so it's straight here, I'm also annoyed they've cut back on WoW dungeons over the years.

[Katchii]

It would also have people up in arms if Sage had a Heal Stance and a Shield Stance. On paper the idea is fine, but in practice it's both stolen wholesale from Astrologian and comes with its own set of game play issues. I'd prefer it to be a toggle stance, that would solve a lot of my personal gripes with it, but that goes against the core design of the skill to begin with so I don't see it ever happening.

Toggle is what I was referring to. Eukrasia is the stance, hit once to turn it on and again to turn it off. But as I said, that creates it's own set of issues.

However if they hadn't included Eukrasia as part of the kit, then it would end up playing almost exactly like Scholar. I can't help but feel as though they've painted themselves into a corner in terms of what new kinds skills they can include. Being a Shielding Healer sets expectations and doesn't leave a whole lot of room for creative skills and breaking new ground.

Eh, I just think they're limiting themselves. WoW has 5 healers. And each one feels unique. True, there's only so much nuance you can give to direct heals, shields or HoT's, but it's how they interact with each other, exactly how they're used and the overall class theme that makes them unique. HoT's, direct heals OR shields don't have to be single target spells, they can be player centered PBAoE, placed AoE, an aura, a reactive ability that only activates after the person receives damage etc... Or turned into a direct heal with the use of another ability.

Shields don't have to be just a shield, which is how most shields in FFXIV work.

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The level of blandness in HW dungeons compared to the new dungeons is mind blowing.

I exclude the hard modes because they are mostly rehashed versions of existing dungeons, and I don't think it is fair to pretend that they are entirely new content. Some are more novel than others, sure. I'd like to see more of them, but let's not pretend a hard mode and a brand new dungeon are equal. They aren't.

Notice how you skipped over the part where HW and EW have the same number of dungeons at launch.

Hard mode dungeons ARE new dungeons. Just because they don't fit your definition of what new means doesn't mean they're not separate things from the regular mode dungeons.

[NineSpine]

Toggle is what I was referring to. Eukrasia is the stance, hit once to turn it on and again to turn it off. But as I said, that creates it's own set of issues.

Eh, I just think they're limiting themselves. WoW has 5 healers. And each one feels unique. True, there's only so much nuance you can give to direct heals, shields or HoT's, but it's how they interact with each other, exactly how they're used and the overall class theme that makes them unique. HoT's, direct heals OR shields don't have to be single target spells, they can be player centered PBAoE, placed AoE, an aura, a reactive ability that only activates after the person receives damage etc... Or turned into a direct heal with the use of another ability.

Shields don't have to be just a shield, which is how most shields in FFXIV work.

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Hard mode dungeons ARE new dungeons. Just because they don't fit your definition of what new means doesn't mean they're not separate things from the regular mode dungeons.

I think calling a hard mode and fully new dungeon the same thing is misleading, that's all. If you want to call them 50%, I'm content.

[Katchii]

I think calling a hard mode and fully new dungeon the same thing is misleading, that's all. If you want to call them 50%, I'm content.

It's a dungeon that's on the list of dungeons the roulettes pull from, adding variety to the mix. You can't remove them from a list of how many dungeons there are when they have different bosses, different loot, different requirements, etc...

[NineSpine]

It's a dungeon that's on the list of dungeons the roulettes pull from, adding variety to the mix. You can't remove them from a list of how many dungeons there are when they have different bosses, different loot, different requirements, etc...

Sometimes the locations and bosses overlap, and let's not pretend unique loot is a big thing in this game.

I'm not saying they don't count at all, but if you gave me the choice between two hard modes of dungeons that already exist and one brand new dungeon at the standards set by EW, I know what Id choose.

[Katchii]

Sometimes the locations and bosses overlap, and let's not pretend unique loot is a big thing in this game.

I'm not saying they don't count at all, but if you gave me the choice between two hard modes of dungeons that already exist and one brand new dungeon at the standards set by EW, I know what Id choose.

I'd rather have two dungeons than one. It adds variety, regardless of whether it's a rehash. And IMO, it's actually kind of fun to see old locations done differently, to see the effect of time and story events on a familiar location.

But with that said, my posts were specifically referring to the point you were making earlier:

1. There are exactly as many dungeons in 6.0 as there were in 3.0.

2. The dungeon quality is exponentially better. Half the dungeons in HW were incredibly bland.

3. Once you exclude the hard modes, HW had 14 dungeons as opposed to Shadowbringers' 13.

This is not nearly as dramatic as you are making it out be.

You can't exclude hard modes from a list of the number of dungeons in each expansion. They're unique dungeons on the list of available dungeons to run. Yes, there's some rehashed stuff in them, that doesn't mean they don't count as a separate dungeon though.

[NineSpine]

I'd rather have two dungeons than one. It adds variety, regardless of whether it's a rehash. And IMO, it's actually kind of fun to see old locations done differently, to see the effect of time and story events on a familiar location.

But with that said, my posts were specifically referring to the point you were making earlier:



You can't exclude hard modes from a list of the number of dungeons in each expansion. They're unique dungeons on the list of available dungeons to run. Yes, there's some rehashed stuff in them, that doesn't mean they don't count as a separate dungeon though.

I was simply countering what I see as an overblown notion of how much less content there is. Is there less? Yes, but the difference is not that much and the newer dungeons are internally far more diverse than the old ones.

[Aucald]

I was simply countering what I see as an overblown notion of how much less content there is. Is there less? Yes, but the difference is not that much and the newer dungeons are internally far more diverse than the old ones.

So far I've found the number of dungeons in HW and SB to be fine, especially in contrast to the sheer glut of dungeons that ARR threw at me. I just finished the Doma dungeon in SB at this point. The only real complaint I have with FF14 dungeons is that the trash is often completely inconsequential - though how long that will remain a factor remains to be seen (at least for me). Bosses are generally fun and interesting, though.

[Thestrawman]

I was simply countering what I see as an overblown notion of how much less content there is. Is there less? Yes, but the difference is not that much and the newer dungeons are internally far more diverse than the old ones.

The problem is there isn't less content it's just not in dungeons.

[NineSpine]

So far I've found the number of dungeons in HW and SB to be fine, especially in contrast to the sheer glut of dungeons that ARR threw at me. I just finished the Doma dungeon in SB at this point. The only real complaint I have with FF14 dungeons is that the trash is often completely inconsequential - though how long that will remain a factor remains to be seen (at least for me). Bosses are generally fun and interesting, though.

By storm blood the dungeon format sets in pretty hard. 3-6 trash packs, then a boss, repeat three times. Almost every dungeon ends up falling into the formula, and most trash remains pretty bland, with a few notable exceptions. I'd say once or twice per dungeon theres a trash pull thats a bit different. I would like to see a lot more dungeon variety as far as enemy mechanics, BUT the bosses simply get better and better and better, and the dungeon aesthetics also keep going up in quality and variety. Some of the bosses in EW are trial-levels of mechanical complexity and interesting ideas.

[Ghost of Cow]

The only real complaint I have with FF14 dungeons is that the trash is often completely inconsequential - though how long that will remain a factor remains to be seen (at least for me).

If anything, it only doubles down on that over time.

The boss designs do improve over time, but the dungeons settle into the "AoE three trash packs, do boss, repeat" paradigm.

[StrawberryZebra]

Oh yeah, it's been that way since WHM/SCH were the only healers. All the bases were basically covered, and Square always seems reluctant to really add new playstyles or significant mechanics.

So when AST came along the big defining trait was "Why not both?"

They could have really leaned into Sage as being the DPS healer - Far more so than they have done. There's a lot of scope for other healer archetypes they could have gone for. But by putting it in the same niche as Scholar they've limited what it can be and re-trod old ground rather than making something new. I find that to be disapointing.

Lots of space to try out melee healers, or straight up HoT based healers, or healers that redistribute HP as a means of healing. Two flavours of the same basic healer archetype was unnecessary and they should have tried something different.

Shields don't have to be just a shield, which is how most shields in FFXIV work.

The application of it is secondary - It's always going to be a mechanic that absorbs damage. There are only so many ways you can tweak that mechanic before it becomes something else entirely.

Different jobs having the same kinds of tools is understandable. They're doing the same role, so some overlap is to be expected. Which is fine, it doesn't have to break any new ground by itself. But when you're going to build two healers around this one mechanic then you need some way to differentiate them. I don't think they've done enough to distinguish them as their own seperate things.

As a comparison, White Mage and Astrologian feel different even though they've got a similar skillset. Astrologian's Cards and related mechanics give it a very different flavour and put it into a more support/healer role rather than White Mage as a straight forwards healer. They share some of their skills with HoTs and direct heals, but that's as far as the comparison goes.

The Sage needs something to make it stand out as it's own unique thing. Kardion isn't enough by itself to hang an entire Job on.

[Ghost of Cow]

They could have really leaned into Sage as being the DPS healer - Far more so than they have done. There's a lot of scope for other healer archetypes they could have gone for. But by putting it in the same niche as Scholar they've limited what it can be and re-trod old ground rather than making something new. I find that to be disapointing.

Lots of space to try out melee healers, or straight up HoT based healers, or healers that redistribute HP as a means of healing. Two flavours of the same basic healer archetype was unnecessary and they should have tried something different.

Indeed, the whole Sage gimmick feels like it has been barely explored.

A cooldown to spread Kardia to the whole group, different Kardia effects based on the attack used, just throwing stuff out there, but yeah. It feels like they didn't really even bother with the concept beyond tacking a regen tick to each spell.

[Katchii]

The application of it is secondary - It's always going to be a mechanic that absorbs damage. There are only so many ways you can tweak that mechanic before it becomes something else entirely.

True. But the application is what makes it FEEL different from a game play perspective. It's function is going to be the same, but how it feels to use is what makes the difference. A shield you place on an individual by selecting them and using the ability feels different than a shield you place on the ground that they have to run to for the benefit which feels different than a PBAoE spell that requires no target and puts shields on the nearby allies which feels different than an aura, etc...

The base function is the same, the secondary effects and how the player applies it are what add the little bits of flavor that change what it feels like to use.

Different jobs having the same kinds of tools is understandable. They're doing the same role, so some overlap is to be expected. Which is fine, it doesn't have to break any new ground by itself. But when you're going to build two healers around this one mechanic then you need some way to differentiate them. I don't think they've done enough to distinguish them as their own seperate things.

As a comparison, White Mage and Astrologian feel different even though they've got a similar skillset. Astrologian's Cards and related mechanics give it a very different flavour and put it into a more support/healer role rather than White Mage as a straight forwards healer. They share some of their skills with HoTs and direct heals, but that's as far as the comparison goes.

The Sage needs something to make it stand out as it's own unique thing. Kardion isn't enough by itself to hang an entire Job on.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

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I was simply countering what I see as an overblown notion of how much less content there is. Is there less? Yes, but the difference is not that much and the newer dungeons are internally far more diverse than the old ones.

Fair enough. Agreed.

[FFXIVuseryo]

This game really lacks content. Only one real end game armor set and one raid tier every 4 months and one ultimate. Only five fights, warcraft has more content in its dungeons because dungeons actually have mechanics

[AcidicSyn]

So far I've found the number of dungeons in HW and SB to be fine, especially in contrast to the sheer glut of dungeons that ARR threw at me. I just finished the Doma dungeon in SB at this point. The only real complaint I have with FF14 dungeons is that the trash is often completely inconsequential - though how long that will remain a factor remains to be seen (at least for me). Bosses are generally fun and interesting, though.

How in blazes are you moving so quickly, sheesh! I feel like I read a post from you saying you were just starting HW right around the time I started ARR, I'm not even 50 yet and this guys in Stormblood now? Been just tunneling WHM too, haven't even taken any time to play crafting yet.

Is HW super short or something if you focus the MSQ? I thought we had to build a castle somewhere. (sort of intentionally ignoring spoilery stuff so not exactly sure where the stories going just yet. Just did Titan myself)

on another note - Dungeon wise: I do find myself wishing there was a way to get that bonus more than once a day sometimes. Or maybe if the guildhest one was a bit higher. I only really have those two roulettes atm, do more roulettes start to unlock later on?

I do already hate losing abilities, but I'm getting used to it. when I get sent to sastasha after being used to getting freecure procs and just having regen, going back to spamming cure isn't as fun. (Though I guess the trade off is when I do see Sastasha pop up, I'm happy because its so short)

Having a blast so far though, run into a few groups that try to pull the whole dungeon sometimes and one time someone didn't realize it was my first time in the dungeon and started the encounter while I was behind the line still watching the cinematic. oh well though lol.

(I'm guessing DRKs are aoe tanks though, its always them that want to do the big pulls.)

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By storm blood the dungeon format sets in pretty hard. 3-6 trash packs, then a boss, repeat three times. Almost every dungeon ends up falling into the formula, and most trash remains pretty bland, with a few notable exceptions. I'd say once or twice per dungeon theres a trash pull thats a bit different. I would like to see a lot more dungeon variety as far as enemy mechanics, BUT the bosses simply get better and better and better, and the dungeon aesthetics also keep going up in quality and variety. Some of the bosses in EW are trial-levels of mechanical complexity and interesting ideas.

When you say the bosses get better and better; do you just mean they get more difficult and/or complex (IE: bigger numbers, more dodge the bad stuff, more/added unavoidable damage, untelegraphed attacks)? Or do they get more interesting? IE: boss phases changing the room, npcs arriving, some other "flavor" thing.

[NineSpine]

When you say the bosses get better and better; do you just mean they get more difficult and/or complex (IE: bigger numbers, more dodge the bad stuff, more/added unavoidable damage, untelegraphed attacks)? Or do they get more interesting? IE: boss phases changing the room, npcs arriving, some other "flavor" thing.

More interesting and fun mechanics, less repeating the same mechanics between bosses.

[zealo]

When you say the bosses get better and better; do you just mean they get more difficult and/or complex (IE: bigger numbers, more dodge the bad stuff, more/added unavoidable damage, untelegraphed attacks)? Or do they get more interesting? IE: boss phases changing the room, npcs arriving, some other "flavor" thing.

There’s a lot of cases even in 4 man duties later were the big ground telegraphs stop being about warning about what the boss is about to do, and more just informing about what you took damage from if you didn’t react to animation based telegraphs or spells used, cause it’s too late to get out if you’re still in it when appears.

[Aucald]

How in blazes are you moving so quickly, sheesh! I feel like I read a post from you saying you were just starting HW right around the time I started ARR, I'm not even 50 yet and this guys in Stormblood now? Been just tunneling WHM too, haven't even taken any time to play crafting yet.

Is HW super short or something if you focus the MSQ? I thought we had to build a castle somewhere. (sort of intentionally ignoring spoilery stuff so not exactly sure where the stories going just yet. Just did Titan myself)

on another note - Dungeon wise: I do find myself wishing there was a way to get that bonus more than once a day sometimes. Or maybe if the guildhest one was a bit higher. I only really have those two roulettes atm, do more roulettes start to unlock later on?

I do already hate losing abilities, but I'm getting used to it. when I get sent to sastasha after being used to getting freecure procs and just having regen, going back to spamming cure isn't as fun. (Though I guess the trade off is when I do see Sastasha pop up, I'm happy because its so short)

Having a blast so far though, run into a few groups that try to pull the whole dungeon sometimes and one time someone didn't realize it was my first time in the dungeon and started the encounter while I was behind the line still watching the cinematic. oh well though lol.

(I'm guessing DRKs are aoe tanks though, its always them that want to do the big pulls.)

Not sure how to answer you on that one - I felt like I was moving kind of slowly, but apparently not? HW did seem a bit short to me, but SB took a bit longer to get through just due to the glut of stuff to do in every zone. I just did the two ending dungeons for SB the other night and I'm now in the midst of the various post-SB quests like the Omega challenges and the various stuff in Kugane (not to mention yet another Hildebrant fever-dream).

I just switched from Bard to Reaper upon hitting lvl. 70 myself, and I've got to say doing dungeons and duties that sync me below 70 feels rough - Reaper really seems to suffer when you get locked out of being able to use Soul Reaver procs for Gibbit and Guillotine. Not an issue now that everything that matters at least syncs to 70, fortunately, but it made parts of SB rougher than need be.

The biggest dungeon faux pas I've seen so far are Tanks in the wrong job starting out. They pull 4-5 packs of trash and then get thrashed, apparently. Had quite a few runs start off that way - we'll pull a dozen or so trash mobs and then everybody's frantically running about trying not to die with the Tank folds like a house of cards. Kind of funny, and no one yet has made too much of an issue from it. The worst experience I can say I've had is from a few Extreme trials I've unlocked with people who are very impatient with wipes, but all in all the experiences have been mostly positive.

[AcidicSyn]

There’s a lot of cases even in 4 man duties later were the big ground telegraphs stop being about warning about what the boss is about to do, and more just informing about what you took damage from if you didn’t react to animation based telegraphs or spells used, cause it’s too late to get out if you’re still in it when appears.

Wait, do you mean that the abilities are just really quick to go off by the time the visual markers are shown relative to when the boss "shakes his fist" or whatever?

Not sure how to answer you on that one - I felt like I was moving kind of slowly, but apparently not? HW did seem a bit short to me, but SB took a bit longer to get through just due to the glut of stuff to do in every zone. I just did the two ending dungeons for SB the other night and I'm now in the midst of the various post-SB quests like the Omega challenges and the various stuff in Kugane (not to mention yet another Hildebrant fever-dream).

I just switched from Bard to Reaper upon hitting lvl. 70 myself, and I've got to say doing dungeons and duties that sync me below 70 feels rough - Reaper really seems to suffer when you get locked out of being able to use Soul Reaver procs for Gibbit and Guillotine. Not an issue now that everything that matters at least syncs to 70, fortunately, but it made parts of SB rougher than need be.

The biggest dungeon faux pas I've seen so far are Tanks in the wrong job starting out. They pull 4-5 packs of trash and then get thrashed, apparently. Had quite a few runs start off that way - we'll pull a dozen or so trash mobs and then everybody's frantically running about trying not to die with the Tank folds like a house of cards. Kind of funny, and no one yet has made too much of an issue from it. The worst experience I can say I've had is from a few Extreme trials I've unlocked with people who are very impatient with wipes, but all in all the experiences have been mostly positive.

Oh man I hadn't really thought about it from a job you unlock later on. I plan to play around with red mage and dancer when I get there. on WHM at least I have the bonus of having played with a limited kit before while I was just a CNJ. I absolutely refuse to go to POTD though. The last two times I tried playing FF14 I went straight there soon as I could and unsubbed within 2 weeks. I'll give it another chance once I've gone through MSQ I think.

Most of what you said regarding challenges and hildebrandt is just greek to me atm, but I expect I'll get it when I get there. Thats honestly why I've basically been ignoring guides, every time I try to read one most of what they talk about are things I don't really understand. IE: I get that Eureka is some place to grind out levels, but everything else they talk about regarding it just whiffs right over my head. Same with crafting. Something something firmament, something something grind, names, places, words make stuff, something about water, repeat. Same thing though, I figure once the word "firmament" means something to me these guides talking about it will make more sense.

You mention side stuff, do the side quests get more....relevant later on? I know even in ARR they will sometimes give cool stuff, dyes, pets or whatever, so I've been sort of just skipping them and saving them for when I can just come back later and clear them all out. T

Typical day for me is usually something like: log on, leveling roulette, guildhest roulette, MSQ for a bit, log off.

one faux pas I've committed a few times is wondering what class someone is when the dungeon starts, and I sit there trying to look at their search info to see which class it is and realize I can't click other party members while I'm doing this. Almost let the tank die doing that last night so now I just stifle my curiosity.