[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Pannonian]

All I can say is I'm glad FF14 isn't like that other MMO or a bunch of other MMOs.

I left that other MMO behind for being what it became and I would much appreciate it if other refugees of that MMO would refrain from trying to turn FF14 into that MMO. I like having a job that more or less finds its footing and doesn't get vulgarly reworked every expansion. I like being able to reliably get BiS gear on at least one job in a short amount of time rather than playing some kind of ilvl roulette. I like that the story exists and isn't tucked away like some embarrassing secret and if anything I would remove paid story skips at all for accounts that don't have at least one character with the MSQ finished.

So much this.

Please dont try to make FF 14 WoW 2.0. I've never been a fan of (the illusion of) choice, because that's what it is. While it may only be the optimized way - we know what players make out of it: There is a wrong way to play and a correct way. Did any of you really play WoW with a freestyle talent choice? Because in every raid environment i was ever part of, even the most casual that was kind of a no-go.

Heck we even made jokes about this: The minimum treshold should be to know how you skill - so different skill ways for me, are mostly a noob trap and don't add anything.

Now if we talk about talents 2.0 it got better, and maybe now with 3.0 there may be an acutal choice, but still another problem remains: This will widen the gap between players, and in the worst case: classes. One thing i really like about FF14 compared to WOW is job viability - you never have to tell someone: you cannot play this job it's garbage (except for BRD maybe, but this is personal bias not founded on facts). I mean its nice if you have 44 different specializations, it's just stupid if half of them will never be invited to a group because they suck.

There is a lot of customization in FF 14 though - visual customization, which personally i prefer much more. If you don't - that's fine - but please push the game i enjoy to make some weird WoW 2.0, because you got some checkboxes in your head how a mmo should be (which is thoroughly biased by playing wow for years...)

[KrayZ33]

What in WoW lets you pool a "ressource" that you couldn't before, or increase buff uptimes that you previously couldn't just by changing one stat? I'll admit I'm one of the people who left a LONG time ago so I haven't paid attention to the game, but I've not heard anyone talking about something like this... Or does something in GW let you pool a "ressource" or increase buff uptimes by changing one stat?

I'm just giving examples mostly of what could happen in FFXIV that would change the rotation or gamestyle with different stats or mechanics enabled through gear.

In WoW there are soft and hardcaps for certain stats, in tandem with borrowed power or simply talents or tier sets you can achieve uptime on buffs and spells you would otherwise not have.
Like a significantly increased uptime on icyveins (Frost mage) for example as there is a talent/conduit increasing the duration of the skill, and decreasing the cooldown for every crit you do. Those are both optional choices.
For ressources, MM Hunters in Legion had sidewinders, which would play significantly different to the non-sidewinder talent choice as you had a limited amount of ressource builders that had a cooldown, while the normal gameplay would allow you to build ressources whenever you wanted.
Meaning you would use sidewinders if you need it or if your cooldown would allow it etc.

Basically, I'm just pointing out the differences.

[Shakzor]

All I can say is I'm glad FF14 isn't like that other MMO or a bunch of other MMOs.

I left that other MMO behind for being what it became and I would much appreciate it if other refugees of that MMO would refrain from trying to turn FF14 into that MMO. I like having a job that more or less finds its footing and doesn't get vulgarly reworked every expansion. I like being able to reliably get BiS gear on at least one job in a short amount of time rather than playing some kind of ilvl roulette. I like that the story exists and isn't tucked away like some embarrassing secret and if anything I would remove paid story skips at all for accounts that don't have at least one character with the MSQ finished.

Absolutely. Every job only having 1 specific purpose/playstyle is definitely one of its strength. I absolutely hate that "spec gets reworked every (other) expansion" in other MMO. Yes, it mixes up things, but at the same time, drives away players taht liked the old style. When something gets reworked because it just spiraled out of control or just played bad, i get that, but so much gets reworked for the sake of it...
I tanked from end of MoP till sometime Legion and tanking with the SAME class in the same group, was different in each xpac and it didn't even get major reworks, just slight tweaks were enough to make it feel compltely different each time.
The SMN rework was absolutely needed, because it just became a clusterfuck to play with the dots, dumb pet ai and weird choices like Bahamut attacking when you do, but now they can iterate it for the next 9 expansions, while maintaining this particular playstyle and just adding/improving.
I think paid skip is fine. NG+ exists, so they can just catch it later, but iirc, they want to introduce a new "start" anyways.

[Kittahsmash]

In WoW there are soft and hardcaps for certain stats, in tandem with borrowed power or simply talents or tier sets you can achieve uptime on buffs and spells you would otherwise not have.
Like a significantly increased uptime on icyveins (Frost mage) for example as there is a talent/conduit increasing the duration of the skill, and decreasing the cooldown for every crit you do. Those are both optional choices.
For ressources, MM Hunters in Legion had sidewinders, which would play significantly different to the non-sidewinder talent choice as you had a limited amount of ressource builders that had a cooldown, while the normal gameplay would allow you to build ressources whenever you wanted.
Meaning you would use sidewinders if you need it or if your cooldown would allow it etc.

Interesting, thanks! Didn't know those were a thing

[Yarathir]

One thing I wish FFXIV did in terms of combat is either reconsider how they distribute abilities and at what level, or to let people who are scaled down have an option to do their true level's full rotation while still doing roughly the same damage.

I wish to no longer fall asleep when I'm thrown in lvl 50 content or below. Even if my damage output doesn't change, I want to do my lvl 90 rotation, because I enjoy it.

[KrayZ33]

One thing I wish FFXIV did in terms of combat is either reconsider how they distribute abilities and at what level, or to let people who are scaled down have an option to do their true level's full rotation while still doing roughly the same damage.

I wish to no longer fall asleep when I'm thrown in lvl 50 content or below. Even if my damage output doesn't change, I want to do my lvl 90 rotation, because I enjoy it.

I honestly believe the "tutorial" in FFXIV is too long.
The leveling isn't "that" fast that you need 4 levels or something to get around and understand the ability you just learned.
It should all be done by lvl 40-50 imho.

As for your wish:
I'm not even sure if it's necessary to reduce the damage/adjust it in (low)level content as you pointed out... just.. don't, who would actually care?
The new player you are helping out? I doubt it.
Once learned, always have it. Not sure if the removal or even a damage reduction on the rotation is necessary, I at least don't see why and when.
In the most extreme cases, Lancer, even though a combo was available, for the longest time they would spam a single button because it had a better potency-ratio. Stuff like that just shouldn't exist, it's kinda "dumb" and even though it's really low level when that happened, it shows that you don't actually "learn" anything when you do that. You were actually doing a mistake if you used the 2-combo you had at that level.

[Yarathir]

I honestly believe the "tutorial" in FFXIV is too long.
The leveling isn't "that" fast that you need 4 levels or something to get around and understand the ability you just learned.
It should all be done by lvl 40-50 imho.

As for your wish:
I'm not even sure if it's necessary to reduce the damage/adjust it in (low)level content as you pointed out... just.. don't, who would actually care?
The new player you are helping out? I doubt it.
Once learned, always have it. Not sure if the removal is necessary, I at least don't see why and when.

I don't know. I always hear that the main objection is "But it wouldn't be fair for people who aren't level capped to be doing less damage in duty finder parties."

I really don't care how much damage I do in this case, so I'm okay with it being equal, so long as I get to do my full rotation. Duty finder is a pretty big part of what you do on the side, and it just sucks that you could be thrown into shit from ARR more often than not and be stuck with your lvl 50 rotation when I enjoy my lvl 90 rotation. It basically results in being able to actually do that fairly rarely.

[MsSideEye]

I don't know. I always hear that the main objection is "But it wouldn't be fair for people who aren't level capped to be doing less damage in duty finder parties."

I really don't care how much damage I do in this case, so I'm okay with it being equal, so long as I get to do my full rotation. Duty finder is a pretty big part of what you do on the side, and it just sucks that you could be thrown into shit from ARR more often than not and be stuck with your lvl 50 rotation when I enjoy my lvl 90 rotation. It basically results in being able to actually do that fairly rarely.

The main reason I've been told against it is because the devs are wanting to preserve the feeling of going back and fighting those bosses from that era of the game as much as possible. Doing so with level 90 abilities isn't that easy.

From a design standpoints, though, I think it's more from how FF14 is balanced, since if you wanted to preserve someone's rotation like that in the older content you'd have to give specific numbers to each and every one of their abilities for the respective dungeons and trails. That'll get headachey really fast considering they'd have to do it again every single time a new ability is added.

[Yarathir]

The main reason I've been told against it is because the devs are wanting to preserve the feeling of going back and fighting those bosses from that era of the game as much as possible. Doing so with level 90 abilities isn't that easy.

From a design standpoints, though, I think it's more from how FF14 is balanced, since if you wanted to preserve someone's rotation like that in the older content you'd have to give specific numbers to each and every one of their abilities for the respective dungeons and trails. That'll get headachey really fast considering they'd have to do it again every single time a new ability is added.

I don't know. I feel like there should be the ability to interject at the back-end and turn the true damage values into something more akin to what characters at that actual level would do.

Regardless, I think it should be an option. I don't want to force it upon everyone, but for the love of God...

[MsSideEye]

I don't know. I feel like there should be the ability to interject at the back-end and turn the true damage values into something more akin to what characters at that actual level would do.

Regardless, I think it should be an option. I don't want to force it upon everyone, but for the love of God...

Mmm, Maybe, but if there's one thing I've learned in game design is that 'Just decreasing everyone's power to fit older content' rarely works. Not saying it's not doable, but it's a pain in the rear end to get right, especially for a game that's updates as frequently as FF14.

I will agree that I do feel like some of the bigger rotation skills/abilities should be shifted around a tad, though. Bard 50 and under sucks donkey without Iron Jaws to refresh buffs.

[Pannonian]

I don't know. I always hear that the main objection is "But it wouldn't be fair for people who aren't level capped to be doing less damage in duty finder parties."

I really don't care how much damage I do in this case, so I'm okay with it being equal, so long as I get to do my full rotation. Duty finder is a pretty big part of what you do on the side, and it just sucks that you could be thrown into shit from ARR more often than not and be stuck with your lvl 50 rotation when I enjoy my lvl 90 rotation. It basically results in being able to actually do that fairly rarely.

The problem is: it isn't done by scaling the damage/heal alone.

For example: I play a lot of SGE. SGE is fun, because i do damage and all my heals are ogcds - smooth life - oh ... below 50? damn, i have to gcd heal. Hard to solve, because either my ogcds now use a gcd and it is already different from "my normal rotation" - ogcds do no heal/less heal - still forces me to gcd heal, which - again - is already different.

Make it work? This again, widens the gap between endgame players and new players - as a tank i'd have to check their actual level to determine if i can w2w dezamel which should be a breeze with a SGE with ogcds, or if its max 2 packs with a lower SGE?

What about tank cooldowns - while the community is nice, there would be a lot of discussion. "Hey Tank why're not using TBN? You loose hp too fast." "Oh, because i'm not 70".

Also, you cannot rebalance - as you need to keep low level in mind - so all this utility would make the easy content even easier - not sure this is the best move.

Granted, somehow bad example given they're starting at 70, but i think you get my drift.

Or if we're at healers - lvl 50 and AOE dmg for healers change how you engage a lot. Same problem - it still would mean that you have to adapt.

Worst case is that every job behaves like BLM and i have to remember 5 different playstyles depending on which bracket i'm in.

Given all these problems: FF14 has the feature to make old content relevant. Taking away abilities is the price for this. Not that i'm in principal against change- but every idea always comes with a myriad of problems, so i'd rather leave it as it is, because the alternatives all seem worse to me.

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I don't know. I feel like there should be the ability to interject at the back-end and turn the true damage values into something more akin to what characters at that actual level would do.

Regardless, I think it should be an option. I don't want to force it upon everyone, but for the love of God...

One small info, which took me about 3 years to learn If you have a full group of peeps, you can activate a setting that the content will not be lower than 10 lvl of your lowest group member.

We use this a lot when we doing leveling queue for daily bonuses etc. Not a solution, but if you didn't knew it, it may be nice.

[MsSideEye]

One small info, which took me about 3 years to learn If you have a full group of peeps, you can activate a setting that the content will not be lower than 10 lvl of your lowest group member.

We use this a lot when we doing leveling queue for daily bonuses etc. Not a solution, but if you didn't knew it, it may be nice.

IIRC, wasn't that something that was only put in recently? I recall it being a big thing about the end of Shadowbringers. And sadly, it only works on if you've got a full group of 4, so not an option for us soloquers. Makes sense, though, since there would be so much opting out and leaving the new players behind.

[Yarathir]

Mmm, Maybe, but if there's one thing I've learned in game design is that 'Just decreasing everyone's power to fit older content' rarely works. Not saying it's not doable, but it's a pain in the rear end to get right, especially for a game that's updates as frequently as FF14.

I will agree that I do feel like some of the bigger rotation skills/abilities should be shifted around a tad, though. Bard 50 and under sucks donkey without Iron Jaws to refresh buffs.

<---- DRG main

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The problem is: it isn't done by scaling the damage/heal alone.

For example: I play a lot of SGE. SGE is fun, because i do damage and all my heals are ogcds - smooth life - oh ... below 50? damn, i have to gcd heal. Hard to solve, because either my ogcds now use a gcd and it is already different from "my normal rotation" - ogcds do no heal/less heal - still forces me to gcd heal, which - again - is already different.

Make it work? This again, widens the gap between endgame players and new players - as a tank i'd have to check their actual level to determine if i can w2w dezamel which should be a breeze with a SGE with ogcds, or if its max 2 packs with a lower SGE?

What about tank cooldowns - while the community is nice, there would be a lot of discussion. "Hey Tank why're not using TBN? You loose hp too fast." "Oh, because i'm not 70".

Also, you cannot rebalance - as you need to keep low level in mind - so all this utility would make the easy content even easier - not sure this is the best move.

Granted, somehow bad example given they're starting at 70, but i think you get my drift.

Or if we're at healers - lvl 50 and AOE dmg for healers change how you engage a lot. Same problem - it still would mean that you have to adapt.

Worst case is that every job behaves like BLM and i have to remember 5 different playstyles depending on which bracket i'm in.

Given all these problems: FF14 has the feature to make old content relevant. Taking away abilities is the price for this. Not that i'm in principal against change- but every idea always comes with a myriad of problems, so i'd rather leave it as it is, because the alternatives all seem worse to me.

Ah shit, you're right. It really does suck, though. If you aren't big on raiding savage, you'll basically be spending a good amount of your time getting RNG-screwed on what rotation you're made to do. It's a little vexing.

[MsSideEye]

<---- DRG main

One of the few classes I've yet to play as of yet. Finished getting all my Tanks to 90, was wanting to knock out my RDP (Since I've got bard up there already) before trying out the Melee. I've played up to 30 on Monk before endwalker and hated it.

[Yarathir]

One of the few classes I've yet to play as of yet. Finished getting all my Tanks to 90, was wanting to knock out my RDP (Since I've got bard up there already) before trying out the Melee. I've played up to 30 on Monk before endwalker and hated it.

To give an example: Dragoons get their first AoE at 40 and their second at 62. They also don't get a pretty big part of later DRG rotation until 70. (Life of the Dragon)

So in 50 content, it's basically True Thrust -> Disembowel -> Chaos Thrust -> True Thrust -> Vorpal Thrust -> Full Thrust and then you weave 2 buffs in between there and 3 oGCDs, one of which is on a 120s recast timer, another on 60s and the last on 30s.

Go below 50 and it gets even more bleak, as you don't even get Chaos Thrust and the greater of the ARR oGCDs until literally that level.

[Pannonian]

<---- DRG main

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Ah shit, you're right. It really does suck, though. If you aren't big on raiding savage, you'll basically be spending a good amount of your time getting RNG-screwed on what rotation you're made to do. It's a little vexing.

To be honest - given the advantages of the system as a whole (getting new players into content quicker with more experienced players and having a wider variety than 5 dungeons/expansion (expert *cough*)) - i think the disadvantages aren't that big and you can adapt. I play a lot of jobs, because i actually do enjoy a lot of the classes, but depending on which queue i join i select the job. E.g.:

BLM - only 90 content
RPR - 90 or Trial
SGE - 90 or trial
DRG - only pvp stuff
and for leveling, if there is a chance for low content, i try to queue as rdm, dnc or mch if i dont tank/heal (and tbh. when it comes to tank/heal it doesnt matter because up until 50 they all play the same for me).

In the end this variety also makes way to a variety of jobs

But i dont play EVERY job, so limited experience when it comes to smn, nin, sam, brd.

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To give an example: Dragoons get their first AoE at 40 and their second at 62. They also don't get a pretty big part of later DRG rotation until 70. (Life of the Dragon)

So in 50 content, it's basically True Thrust -> Disembowel -> Chaos Thrust -> True Thrust -> Vorpal Thrust -> Full Thrust and then you weave 2 buffs in between there and 3 oGCDs, one of which is on a 120s recast timer, another on 60s and the last on 30s.

Go below 50 and it gets even more bleak, as you don't even get Chaos Thrust and the greater of the ARR oGCDs until literally that level.

There is a sharp distinction in my opinion between ARR and expansion jobs.

Imho ARR jobs are way worse in downscaling than all the jobs added later on. I think you can see how they learned to design a class within their own systems. DRG is one of the WORST offenders when it comes to downscaling feeling bad. On the other hand RDM/DNC/RPR all work great even in lower levels. You might be missing attacks, but you never feel gimped like DRG.

(And this might be contradictionary to me stating that i dont play rpr in leveling. This is not because its bad, but i think other options are more fun. RPR is decent in leveling compared to the train wreck that is DRG)

[Aucald]

Again, this is not a thread for comparing WoW to FFXIV, and/or bashing either game comparatively. It's fine to compare and contrast features across MMOs, but let's avoid turning this into yet another WoW vs. FFXIV free-for-all.

[StrawberryZebra]

I can see my ultimate weapons just fine in content. Not sure what you mean. If you have all spell effects on sure they'll probably be drowned out sometimes. But a lot of the reason for their flashiness is just general sense of pride and being able to show them as a trophy.

From the Artwork it looks as though there's a loop on the back or flaming shoulders on the sets. The position of it has me thinking it's going to clip badly though walls, weapon models, other players etc. Combat animations have jumps, spins and other movements and dragging those kinds of particles through those motions can lead to a lot of bluring while in motion and is going to overshadow a lot of the actual movement your character is making.

Outside of combat you're going to be seeing them against skyboxes, moving on mounts, in cutscenes and so on and I think they're going to look much worse against those backdrops than the solid black one they're shown against in the artwork.

I get that they're a prestige item first and foremost and are going to be desirable on that basis alone. I don't think they're going to look as cool in game as they do on the concept art.

[KrayZ33]

I don't think they are going to clip as much.
At least not in combat.

Sure... if you stand next to a wall or something it most likely will. Just like everything else actually. After all, playermodels clip into each other as well so that point is kinda moot, obviously it's a hot mess in Limsa when 200 players are on top of each other.
But in combat it will probably be just fine due to how characters move. I don't think certain combat or idle stances will interfere either.

[Yarathir]

I'm not sure, of course.
But if Savage gear does have those particle effects exclusively, then I hope normal gear becomes dyeable.