Ret *Still* needs a buff

[CaptainV]

Imho the problem with ret atm is that its over-all jack of all trades focus makes it a solid support but nowhere near as valueable as an augvoker, and imho, this presents an odd but thoughtful idea on what they should do for ret moving into TWW.

In not-so-gentle terms, ret needs to be a support DPS, with a strong enphasis on damage and healing...

This is my personal idea list on how to give it a damage reduction while making it very much viable and perhaps even A tier for raiding.

Step 1: the damage problem.

Ret is basically competing with other more aggressive DPS for the role of dps king, a fight it cannot compete in due to the fact it lacks the damage of other factions by a milestone.

So really, what it needs is to compensate this with something that makes that lack of damage, more valueable.

Que: Heal DPS.

Holy already does this to an extent, a shockadin is baiscally a DPS healer, but... ret would basically go from the shock side of the playstyle to the damage side, focusing on using its aoes and dps to actually offer support healing.

So how, would this work?

Basically its going to be melee oriented for start, so it doesnt compete with ranged support in the future, and the goal here is to take what we already have, and add things.

e.g.

Divine Storm: We wont change the damage perimiters, but now, we have a new effect:

The damage it deals will now travel not just to enemies but 1/2 of the damage it deals will also heal allies.

Similarly, wake the ashes will do the same, with execution sentance and final reckoning also adding heal over time of radiant healing.

This basically sends the somewhat lackluster specs limited potential to a sudden high function purpose... what it lacks in raw damage, it makes up for in damage and healing.

So it can basically act as a lighter support for healers, helping make life easier for healers trying to keep the group alive while also lowering some of the struggle.

This then finally puts ret in a position its actually valued for what it really is, a support DPS role that can both damage, and heal.

Word of glory would also be turned into an AoE that looses its healing potential on a raw basis but becomes a DPS heal again, more aoe healing.

Flash heal would be our only remaining direct heal and Loh can now be used to damage an enemy for 25% of your total hp plus burst a 10 yard heal for the same for allies.

Again, this puts ret in a unique position of, not competing with holy's shock focus and actual higher heal potentcy, but helping make ret feel like a weird hybrid of disc priest and its current iteration, making it significantly more valueable for everyone and again, giving it that needed sweet spot of being useful as a role for everyone.

I understand not everyone will like this suggestion of going from DPS to support, but I feel ret has alway sbeen in a rough spot of trying to compete and really, waht tehy need to do, is make it cooperative.

[Jester Joe]

Ret is literally in a perfectly fine state.

It's right near the middle in terms of viability, and it's fun to play.

There's absolutely no reason to make it into a support spec and the last thing Blizzard should do again is change a well established spec on a large playerbase, cos last I checked, ret had the 3rd highest amount of logs of all DPS specs for the heroic raid

[Ravaloon]

I think Frost DK needs a rework more than Paladins at the moment

[Wrecktangle]

Imho the problem with ret atm is that its over-all jack of all trades focus makes it a solid support but nowhere near as valueable as an augvoker, and imho, this presents an odd but thoughtful idea on what they should do for ret moving into TWW.

In not-so-gentle terms, ret needs to be a support DPS, with a strong enphasis on damage and healing...

This is my personal idea list on how to give it a damage reduction while making it very much viable and perhaps even A tier for raiding.

Step 1: the damage problem.

Ret is basically competing with other more aggressive DPS for the role of dps king, a fight it cannot compete in due to the fact it lacks the damage of other factions by a milestone.

So really, what it needs is to compensate this with something that makes that lack of damage, more valueable.

Que: Heal DPS.

Holy already does this to an extent, a shockadin is baiscally a DPS healer, but... ret would basically go from the shock side of the playstyle to the damage side, focusing on using its aoes and dps to actually offer support healing.

So how, would this work?

Basically its going to be melee oriented for start, so it doesnt compete with ranged support in the future, and the goal here is to take what we already have, and add things.

e.g.

Divine Storm: We wont change the damage perimiters, but now, we have a new effect:

The damage it deals will now travel not just to enemies but 1/2 of the damage it deals will also heal allies.

Similarly, wake the ashes will do the same, with execution sentance and final reckoning also adding heal over time of radiant healing.

This basically sends the somewhat lackluster specs limited potential to a sudden high function purpose... what it lacks in raw damage, it makes up for in damage and healing.

So it can basically act as a lighter support for healers, helping make life easier for healers trying to keep the group alive while also lowering some of the struggle.

This then finally puts ret in a position its actually valued for what it really is, a support DPS role that can both damage, and heal.

Word of glory would also be turned into an AoE that looses its healing potential on a raw basis but becomes a DPS heal again, more aoe healing.

Flash heal would be our only remaining direct heal and Loh can now be used to damage an enemy for 25% of your total hp plus burst a 10 yard heal for the same for allies.

Again, this puts ret in a unique position of, not competing with holy's shock focus and actual higher heal potentcy, but helping make ret feel like a weird hybrid of disc priest and its current iteration, making it significantly more valueable for everyone and again, giving it that needed sweet spot of being useful as a role for everyone.

I understand not everyone will like this suggestion of going from DPS to support, but I feel ret has alway sbeen in a rough spot of trying to compete and really, waht tehy need to do, is make it cooperative.

I honestly can't find a single redeeming point of your proposed changes. Making it a healing focused support would make Ret even less valuable than now. Making it melee oriented is a bad thing if you wanted to go support route, it would need to be flat out busted to take up melee real estate given how competitive those slots already are.

All Ret actually needs is a reliable AOE stun, a small damage buff, and some talent reworkings to give us better ST without gutting AOE and vice versa. I'd argue Ret BoP could include Sanctuary's effect and it wouldn't be too busted. They already did a good job making Ret durable so that's good.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Only change for Ret I'd like would be for a talent choice node to trade out Divine Steed for that Wings of Liberty leap that was on the beta briefly. It's 2023 and Blizzard still won't let me swap out that crappy blue Kodo with a nicer mount of my choosing (that actually looks like it can support my big Tauren rather than a tiny pony), and I think the leaps are cooler.

[vizzle]

You can tell that the OP has never mained a healer if he thinks these changes would make healing easier. OP, if you want to play this version of a Ret Paladin, go to Classic because it's already there.

[CaptainV]

You can tell that the OP has never mained a healer if he thinks these changes would make healing easier. OP, if you want to play this version of a Ret Paladin, go to Classic because it's already there.

I played ret back in vanillia 2005 till present watching its many iterations, the issue is that ret has always struggled to find its place compared to other dps.

For example:

In vanillia it was awefully lacking due to a lack of dedicated dps since so much of its dps was RNG based (seal of casino was great lol not), meanwhile wrath was undeniably its early comfort zone when we got divine storm after getting CS in TBC which was a much nicer medium, then for some reason they kept playing around with what already worked.

The other issue is that ret itself is in a position where these days your basically at war with 3-4 different specs for the same basic principle of flat damage aoe/dps rotation, its basically fury vs vengance vs ret vs unholy for the role of hybrid single target/aoe spec.

And Ret never quite manages to hit the top of the board even when it does its absoleute best to keep pace.

The issue is simply, it doesnt have the right tools or utility for that kind of role.

Augvoker, honestly made me look back at many years of rets iterations, the last time ret really had something that one can really attribute to real destructive power was legion, and even then, it still competed because its playstyle offers little in variation to other aoe/st hybrid melee specs.

Were not the focused damage and were not the cleave, we have a bit of something for everything, in theory thats a good thing.

In practice, its not, it means it has alot of utility but no real specialisation and that makes it useless compared to generally more high end specs that focus on A or B.

I am not saying Ret is just bad, I am saying Ret isnt good Enough.

It needs something that makes its utility more viable over-all and just more desirable, over-all, it lacks this.

[czarek]

I dont see the issue tbh. Retri is in good condition. Just rerolled from shadowpriest and tbh retri taste like faceroll vs shadowpriest wise rotation and its really fun. Except this numbers are really high.

[sam86]

am i old one who miss the old judge/seal system? i hated the holy power system since day one
as main paladin (tank) since tbc, i wish return for our old more simple boring system, i don't want to be a rogue combo point style, if i wanted rogue dps i'd reroll dps
blizz killed many unique styles because they weren't complex (or too complex in case of druid), making them way too similar to each others just different in visuals
i know my wish is probably dead and buried and even rotten, but still i miss days where classes were far more different, yeah balance was a joke but even now balance is still bad and no one takes retardin for serious pve (or tankadin for that matter, holy or but heh)

I think Frost DK needs a rework more than Paladins at the moment

the most iconic 'frost dk' is LK, and he use 2h not duel wield, they look like plate rogues

[Omaski]

I believe that the OP's point is that Ret is never the BEST for an extended period of time. When ret got the rework we were overpowered for all of like 3 weeks then Nerfs came rolling and other reworks put us back at the middle of the pack. But Rets were never the go-to staple for any WoW content. In a way, it always seems like there is an idea that because ret can do some much [jack-of-all-trade, master of none]] we can't be too good at anything

[M1r4g3]

The only real issue ret has is that it has to pick between single target and aoe, other than that its well balanced and probably one of the stronger specs with the legendary.

[noctim2]

As much as I try to envision significant improvements for Paladins, I genuinely think Ret is in a very balanced state right now, with a ton of useful utility. I'm having a blast in M+ and Heroic Raids.

I'm not familiar with world first kills, but for all other activities the class is 100% fine.

[agentsi]

One of the reasons I've grown to hate the internet is given as an example here. Not everyones opinion has merit or value. But still, they feel the need to share it, even if everyone disagrees with them.

Everyone I know who plays Ret right now loves it. It isn't the best DPS, but in a group of average players, a good player dumps on them in Ret spec. Ret, as many folks have stated here, seems to be in a great spot. In the last patch, Ret was amazing, nothing changed for them, they got a little better even, and other classes/specs just got brought up a little bit more. And only now that Ret isn't topping all the meters, you have people like the OP asking for massive changes that make ZERO sense logically.

Leave Ret alone, please, if Blizzard ever reads these forums, do not listen to the OP.

[Wrecktangle]

As much as I try to envision significant improvements for Paladins, I genuinely think Ret is in a very balanced state right now, with a ton of useful utility. I'm having a blast in M+ and Heroic Raids.

I'm not familiar with world first kills, but for all other activities the class is 100% fine.

That's the issue you say it's balanced, but you're just basing it off your own feels and not data. I had a Assassination Rogue 20 ilvls lower do the same overall damage I do. I'm not some chump either, I'm a well geared/itemized high parsing raider. Sure this is just a polarizing example because it's the top overtuned spec vs. one of the bottom 5, but it felt REALLY bad. Really they need to either bring down the top 1/3 of the specs that are crazily overtuned, or they need to bring the bottom 2/3s up. Ret has a good niche (durable, good AOE), but absolutely needs a ST buff, or specifically the ability to do meaningful ST damage without gutting AOE. It also could really use a meaningful AOE stun. If you're going to compete for slots in the melee world you need to have strong unique utility and while Ret does have a fair amount of utility it almost always overlaps in a non-relevant way with healers, instead of being something uniquely useful.

Everyone I know who plays Ret right now loves it. It isn't the best DPS, but in a group of average players, a good player dumps on them in Ret spec. Ret, as many folks have stated here, seems to be in a great spot. In the last patch, Ret was amazing, nothing changed for them, they got a little better even, and other classes/specs just got brought up a little bit more. And only now that Ret isn't topping all the meters, you have people like the OP asking for massive changes that make ZERO sense logically.

Sure a good Ret dumps all over average players, but that's literally true of any spec and not really relevant. I do like this iteration of Ret, it's a good one and we're durable FINALLY. We are not in a great spot though, we're one of the worst performing DPS and in the melee space we are lacking useful utility for high keys and that hurts. We need some talent tweaks to make our ST/AOE choices less punishing to the other, and as a melee spec we really should have a AOE stun somewhere in the toolkit.

I do agree that the OP sounds crazy though and that's not the solution for the spec, but let's not say it's "in a great spot" when it objectively isn't.

[Aliven]

One of the reasons I've grown to hate the internet is given as an example here. Not everyones opinion has merit or value. But still, they feel the need to share it, even if everyone disagrees with them.

Disagreeing or agreeing with opinion does not make it valuable or not.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

there are already two paladins in every raid, the class is overrepresented as it is lol

with the number of specs in the game and paladin having 3 roles, ret can never be *that* good without it causing significant complications.

[noctim2]

That's the issue you say it's balanced, but you're just basing it off your own feels and not data. I had a Assassination Rogue 20 ilvls lower do the same overall damage I do. I'm not some chump either, I'm a well geared/itemized high parsing raider. Sure this is just a polarizing example because it's the top overtuned spec vs. one of the bottom 5, but it felt REALLY bad. Really they need to either bring down the top 1/3 of the specs that are crazily overtuned, or they need to bring the bottom 2/3s up. Ret has a good niche (durable, good AOE), but absolutely needs a ST buff, or specifically the ability to do meaningful ST damage without gutting AOE. It also could really use a meaningful AOE stun. If you're going to compete for slots in the melee world you need to have strong unique utility and while Ret does have a fair amount of utility it almost always overlaps in a non-relevant way with healers, instead of being something uniquely useful.



Sure a good Ret dumps all over average players, but that's literally true of any spec and not really relevant. I do like this iteration of Ret, it's a good one and we're durable FINALLY. We are not in a great spot though, we're one of the worst performing DPS and in the melee space we are lacking useful utility for high keys and that hurts. We need some talent tweaks to make our ST/AOE choices less punishing to the other, and as a melee spec we really should have a AOE stun somewhere in the toolkit.

I do agree that the OP sounds crazy though and that's not the solution for the spec, but let's not say it's "in a great spot" when it objectively isn't.

I don't see that your examples are any less anecdotal than mine. Maybe your friend is just simply good as rogue, while you are mediocre as ret paladin?

[Delever]

there are already two paladins in every raid, the class is overrepresented as it is lol

with the number of specs in the game and paladin having 3 roles, ret can never be *that* good without it causing significant complications.

Oh no! Not TWO whole paladins out of 20 people for the first time in 3 expansions! Whatever will we do?

[Ereb]

I don't see that your examples are any less anecdotal than mine. Maybe your friend is just simply good as rogue, while you are mediocre as ret paladin?

You understand we don't have to guess at this right and there is plenty of numerical data available? Ret is among the very bottom of specs in the raid currently.

[Spey]

Retri-pala is a faceroll 2-4 button spec. And dont! need a buff. Specs which really should be buffed are feral, ench, subtetly rogue. Those are hard to play hard to master. Unlike faceroll pally, dracthyr, arcane, fury, bm, e.t.c.