Bring the player NOT the class Blizz fail again ?

[Tides]

I dont get op's argument.

Someone will ALWAYS be on top. That class is the best at that time. Obviously it will be stacked. Even moreso in the number one guild in the world.

There will always be a class at the bottom and another at the top.

[Rytrik]

There's no point denying that bringing a certain class composition helps a lot on boss fights. Blizzard did no anticipate it, infact Paragon perfected this very well when they suddenly bolted into world first by just having geared alts. The koreans took it to a whole new level by forming mega guilds and then having possibly every combination possible to tackle any encounter.

Maybe the encounter designers failed on this one but the fight is extremely difficult with a normal composition.

Actually, the Koreans (KIN), have a raid guild of roughly 25 people, as said in their interview. They also explained that they went about fully gearing up multiple alts for each member (various different types of alts), so each person has training in multiple areas, as well as various options for classes to use.

This way, when the need arises, they bring both the player, as well as the class, to the encounter. And with both Spine and Madness, they did. They brought both the player, and the class.

[Lucapa]

Thre will always be favored classes in world first kills.
Nevertheless it is my opinion that some classes were allowed to go too low on single target dps, especially boomkins.
The issues ele shammies now face with their overpowered t12 set bonus gone and nerfed was anticipated by pretty much every shaman who read their tier bonus text.
That fire mages have been overbuffed was pretty clear as well.
Classes will be stacked for world firsts. Nevertheless class balance this tier is worse than previous tiers.

[namelessone]

Class balance is impossible to achieve unless all classes are exactly the same. Very simple fact.

Recycled zones are pretty bad though. Entire raid not having a SINGLE NEW MODEL is just lazy shit.

[ImpTaimer]

Ghostcrawler just don't give a rats ass about class balance. Simple as that.

They had the numbers even before the patch, it was put out in the open in every simulator there is. And yet they didn't do anything to balance it out. They just had to change a few numbers for a few classes. But nono, that would make them look stupid and terrible at their job. Imagine that simulations made by players are better than the numbers they get internally.

Thank you. I really wish Blizz would give him a sit-down and a stern talking to, but they're too busy working on their next project.

But the talk about simulators is a waste of time honestly. They're nice, but they don't show you anything useful concerning quality of life issues. I don't want WoW to be a math equation. I want there to be as much RNG as possible. Let Murphy sort 'em out.


As for the issue of "reused / rehashed content".

It's better than dead, useless content.

---------- Post added 2011-12-22 at 08:29 PM ----------

Class balance is impossible to achieve unless all classes are exactly the same. Very simple fact.

Recycled zones are pretty bad though. Entire raid not having a SINGLE NEW MODEL is just lazy shit.

Wrong. Improbable, not impossible, and possible to achieve w/o all classes being the same.

[Cactrot]

Blizzard has flat out stated they do not balance around the bleeding edge guilds. The failure here is your ability to understand what bring the player not the class really means for the game, not blizzard failing to live up to it.

[Demonakat]

balance between classes dps-wise is incredibly hard to do. tank-wise is slightly easier to do, but still very hard. healing wise would be the easiest to balance out.

even then, people are going to look at a mage doing 50k dps and a warlock doing 40k and think "ZOMG I MUST COMPLAIN THAT THIS MAGE IS OP AND NEEDS TO BE NERFED!!!!" when they're completely balanced. No one will EVER be happy about this. The hardest part of balancing is gear/player behind computer. See someone doing THAT much more than you with the same gear and you wonder why. Well, they have a better computer/internet connection. Faster reflexes, gem better, enchant better, they're just better.

[namelessone]

Wrong. Improbable, not impossible, and possible to achieve w/o all classes being the same.

Can you prove me wrong? Thought so. As I said, impossible.

[BLSTMASTER]

Every class has different strengths. Some have good burst, some have good sustained dps, some have awesome survival (sub rogue w/ enveloping shadow was awesome in V&T heroic) Some can aid in AOE (theres different kinds of AOE too.)
Even with tanks and healers. They have different strengths. (Ctc capped warriors are very different from Feral Tanks)

Every boss is different too. Some have adds. Some have phases of the fight that requires burst. Some dont require too much dps, but requires a LOT of healing so multiple defensive/passive damage reduction can be good. etc etc.
(Even changing the number of tanks/healers 'required' in a fight is connected to this)

The harder bosses require more of the above from raiders than the easier fights.

Because of the different strengths of classes and the design of bosses, it pretty much 'requires' top tier 'world first class' guilds to 'stack' classes that are the best at the encounter, because essentially, they are doing the content undergeared.

For the 'lower end' top guilds they will still be able to kill the same boss without class stacking because the requirements of the fight can be met with the 'appropriate' gear for the boss.

I honestly dont see a scenario where the classes/spec feel different from one another while having them perfectly balanced for every single encounter.

[ainsophaur]

i think the whole "bring the player not the class" idea mainly applies to general raiding.

these heroic counters are supposed to be a HUGE obstacle which require crap loads of gear to conquer. And when one is aiming for world first, you naturally will min/max and bring whatever classes fit best, for the spine case here, arcane mages and rogues.

IMO i don't think blizz fail at all, it's just how normal ppl brains work

[Affectionate]

Bring the player not the class was NEVER intended to apply to pushing world first raid boss kills, if 1 class did 0.5% better than other classes on an encounter, then of course world first guilds are going to be stacking it.

[Ellesarr]

Bring the player not the class never applied for heroic nothing new here.

[Deleted]

I honestly haven't checked yet, but can hunters soak an hour of twilight with deterrence? I ask because I am thinking of the achievement lol :> I want it next time.

But yeah, hunters did last patch do very high DPS until the legendary staff popped up for casters, it's just one of those things, you have patches of awesomeness, you have patches of normality, you ahve patches of being under neath the pack. Just gotta weather it until next patch...

I love having hunter with me if I am honest, I provide them stats, crit, and resistances, they provide me AP.. aswell as ANY buff we miss from any other class because of pets :>

I will be able to speak with more experience once we start hammering into heroics (not until 4th of january)

A bit of a late response, but yes. Me and other hunter usually take the 1th / 4th / etc Soak with both deterrence up. I guess you're right. I guess I'm just a bit frustrated. It feels like all the rotation practicing sessions and "work to perfection" don't matter anymore.

[Gilian]

They stack classes to compensate for the lack of gear and because their goals is world first. When they have more gear they can bring other classes who have less burst damage compared to other classes.
Other guilds will just farm 6/8 hardmode untill they have enough raid dps to finish off Spine.

[Deleted]

Erm even the FIRST guild in the world still bring the 'player' not the 'class' becuase he said in the interview that they benched an ele shaman for 3 hours becuase he couldn't play well and pull the dps so he had to go hit a dummy

Also this thread it pretty stupid seeing as your main arguement is based on a world first kill when everyone was racing for it as usual and will do everything and anything to get it first