Can we trust Frostheim/WHU anymore

[hunter123]

The great thing about what Frostheim used to do was back everything he said with in game testing. He would use
Zeherahs site, back of the napkin math and in game testing to produce his results. He still puts out BiS list, rotations, builds and what not but hasn't raided since the first tier of this expansion where he only downed the first couple bosses. This means he can't test his conclusion because he doesn't have the gear. The more tiers that go by the more he can't test for weird thing that actual happen in game with higher level of haste, crit and what not. This seem like it would make his results unreliable by his own words - especially during the whole armor pen debate he wrote in depth about not relying solely spreadsheets.

I read WHU since the second month it was a site it had/has good info. So I know he never was ahead of the curve when it came to progression. But he'd have the appropriate gear though when he wrote about stuff

Fan boys and anti-fans please refrain from commenting. It that add nothing to the discussion that frost saved you from being a melee hunter or cuz your jealous and hate him cuz hes popluar and not a hardcore raider

[siegemaster]

I still trust him, and honestly it doesn't matter to me if you do or not. Zeherah and Frost and BRK before them have really blazed a trail as far as the hunter community goes. No other class, from what I have seen, has these figure heads. His podcast is still topnotch, and there isn't a whole lot in this game that can't be tested in spread sheets.

Being wrong a few times isn't going to shatter that. If he starts to systematically give bad advice or mislead players that is one thing, but he has earned the benefit of the doubt as far as I am concerned.

[Deleted]

and there isn't a whole lot in this game that can't be tested in spread sheets.

I assume thats why sim crafts are always so correct?

[hunter123]

I assume thats why sim crafts are always so correct?

Sighhh...2 post 2 pointless i like Frost fan boy responses

If you read the whole post or actually paid attention to what frost has said you know he has in the past consistently made the argument against blind adherence to spreadsheets

The question is how is he testing this stuff if he doesnt have the gear to do it and can we trust his results now

[TJ]

Trust what you want to trust, personally i dont take any notice of him or whitefyst. You dont have to rely on what they say, either use it or dont.

[Deleted]

Sighhh...2 post 2 pointless i like Frost fan boy responses

If you read the whole post or actually paid attention to what frost has said you know he has in the past consistently made the argument against blind adherence to spreadsheets

The question is how is he testing this stuff if he doesnt have the gear to do it and can we trust his results now

Im not a frost fan boy, i was sarcastic in meaning that sim crafts rarely are accurate and thus he cant be as accurate if all his tests is only done with spreadsheets and programs.

[Daytraders]

Frostheim is the worst. Most of his information is complete garbage and I'd only let a complete beginner use his site. If I relied on this site I'd probably lose 25% of my DPS. I remember a few months ago (near the end of firelands) people were quoting an article of his that stated that marks needed a nerf. At the time marks was something like the #10 spec out of all 22 dps specs on raidbots. We were behind 8 or 9 classes but above lots of completely unused specs. Apparently marks needed a nerf because we weren't in the bottom half. I'd give his site a 3/10. His beginner info is ok and is easier to understand than whitefyst.

Zeherah's spreadsheet isn't as accurate as most people think. Zeherah himself only does normal modes. Regardless, his spreadsheet is a useful tool and I'd give him a 7/10.

Whitefyst also only does normal modes (1/8 heroic doesn't count). It can be a pain to find the information you need when looking at his guide but I personally trust him the most. I'd give him an 8/10.

[Deleted]

The question you first have to answer is what do you want from the likes of Frostheim, Whytefist et al? The numbers that people like Frostheim and Whytefist produce are just that - numbers. It doesn't matter if they were clearing hc content in the first month or if they never step foot inside a raid instance. What ilevel of gear a person has on their character doesn't make them any less able to theorycraft the implications of high haste or high crit builds as long as they first understand the mechanics they're talking about. The "real-world" (what a strange phrase to use about WOW) tips and tricks are often compiled into threads on both EJ, WHU and MMO - so that hunters who are pushing progression can add to the plethora of information about how hunters perform in raid content.

Whytefist's data over at EJ is a good example - he himself says that this his is a recommended way of playing MM. He doesn't say its the way to play the spec. His recommendation is based on empirical data as well as misnomers such as 0 latency. The point is that you're being provided with a well thought out point of view on how to play a spec backed up with testing and data. Frostheim does the same thing - he takes a position and uses testing and data to either prove or disprove that position. That testing doesn't have to happen in a raid. Why restrict yourself to a body of evidence comprising of a few encounters when you could use a tool such as F/Dwarf or SimCraft that can provide you with 1000's and 1000's of "encounters"?

How can any theorycrafter know what a particular hunter is going to be expected to do in any encounter? We need to assess the information provided by these theorycrafters and then apply our own circumstances in order ensure we're doing what's best for our raid group. We can't just blindly log onto a theory-crafting site and just copy what we see there. I'm fairly sure that no theorycrafter worth their salt would expect that. Its up to us the tailor the information we're given to how we play.

Finally, for Zeherah's sake...[QUOTE=Daytraders;14817316]Zeherah's spreadsheet isn't as accurate as most people think. Zeherah himself only does normal modes. Regardless, his spreadsheet is a useful tool and I'd give him a 7/10./QUOTE] FYI - Zeherah is a lady...her site is even called femaledwarf.com

[Mjolnir2k]

These sites are a good way to find the right path, but there are too many variables involved in each individuals experience to replicate these results every time. Factors like Your skill level, your latency, your computer speed / mouse speed, your reaction time etc. are all going to have a major impact on your end result.

use these sites to "stay on the right path", but let your actual experience guide you on what is best for you.

ps. Zehereh is a Woman and she actully DOES raid extensively.

[baan]

Trust them or not that's your personal choice.
Maybe just maybe Frost could have missed a few things or made a mistake with the top end raiding stuff, because like the OP said he doesnt raid anymore, but at leaste hie is trying to help get some info out there.
He "called" for the MM nerf looking at hunter specs, saying it was ahead of the other two, which no hunter can argue it wasn't.
WHU was what first helped me learn solid information about my class. Where else are you going to find info like that anymore without browsing through post after post after post on forums with "mind boggling QQ or useless posts". After all we all know the forums have turned into a transmog/hunters are doomed/I wish they'd fix this pointless bug and ignore the major ones just because I want them too posts.

[refire]

Frostheim is the worst. Most of his information is complete garbage and I'd only let a complete beginner use his site. If I relied on this site I'd probably lose 25% of my DPS. I remember a few months ago (near the end of firelands) people were quoting an article of his that stated that marks needed a nerf. At the time marks was something like the #10 spec out of all 22 dps specs on raidbots. We were behind 8 or 9 classes but above lots of completely unused specs. Apparently marks needed a nerf because we weren't in the bottom half. I'd give his site a 3/10. His beginner info is ok and is easier to understand than whitefyst.

Zeherah's spreadsheet isn't as accurate as most people think. Zeherah himself only does normal modes. Regardless, his spreadsheet is a useful tool and I'd give him a 7/10.

Whitefyst also only does normal modes (1/8 heroic doesn't count). It can be a pain to find the information you need when looking at his guide but I personally trust him the most. I'd give him an 8/10.

I agree 100% with the Frostheim part. His whole entire site is completely worthless to any person that's been playing a hunter at max level for more than two weeks. He used to think he was some hunter god when he did haste values. Except when he did haste values he used the wrong MM spec and didn't factor in invigoration for BM making everything he did completely worthless.

I disagree about Zeherah though. Doing normal modes is irrelevant to knowing the proper information and formulas. It's not like if you start doing hard modes Blizzard tells you secret formulas to better calculate shot damage. As far as I see it's the only real resource we have. Take any result you get from it with a grain of salt, but still make use of it.

Same with Whitefyst. He may not be doing progression but it doesn't mean that his numbers are wrong. Again take his information with a grain of salt. His rotations are almost always correct. The ability to do those rotations in game is another story. Yet knowing what you should be aiming for doesn't hurt.

The problem is when people go to a site such as EJ on the MM post or Femaledwarf and you see them gemming straight haste rather than agility because haste had a higher aep at the time or you see someone claiming that all these other hunters are wrong because Whitefyst said X and they're doing Y. People misinterpreting their resources is a problem from the players end, not a problem from the people creating the numbers.

---------- Post added 2011-12-27 at 09:57 AM ----------

Trust them or not that's your personal choice.
Maybe just maybe Frost could have missed a few things or made a mistake with the top end raiding stuff, because like the OP said he doesnt raid anymore, but at leaste hie is trying to help get some info out there.
He "called" for the MM nerf looking at hunter specs, saying it was ahead of the other two, which no hunter can argue it wasn't.
WHU was what first helped me learn solid information about my class. Where else are you going to find info like that anymore without browsing through post after post after post on forums with "mind boggling QQ or useless posts". After all we all know the forums have turned into a transmog/hunters are doomed/I wish they'd fix this pointless bug and ignore the major ones just because I want them too posts.

He called for a nerf because it was ahead of his beloved beastmaster. Sorry but I refuse to give any credit whatsoever to someone that says the spec I want to play is lower than our top spec at the moment, so how about we call for a nerf from the top spec rather than consider buffing the bottom specs up to it.

[jax]

He called for a nerf because it was ahead of his beloved beastmaster.

Just as he called for the SV nerf that gutted the spec 3 weeks after raiding started for the expac... It didn't matter that several high end hunters tried to explain the lack of scaling SV had as they got gear. (yes this is where his woeful lack of experience in game effects his conclusions and effects the rest of us.)

I especially love how he defends his call for the SV nerf as saying Blizz was gonna do it and he was trying to limit the extent of the nerf... then after the gutting of SV he posts how he is not to blame because no way a multi billion dollar company even pays attention to anything he says... then he gets an in game item named after him... ROFL

[Drakoes]

I go on his website when I'm bored or just want to read up on what he's got to say, along with outdps.com

[malevolant]

Just as he called for the SV nerf that gutted the spec 3 weeks after raiding started for the expac... It didn't matter that several high end hunters tried to explain the lack of scaling SV had as they got gear. (yes this is where his woeful lack of experience in game effects his conclusions and effects the rest of us.)

I especially love how he defends his call for the SV nerf as saying Blizz was gonna do it and he was trying to limit the extent of the nerf... then after the gutting of SV he posts how he is not to blame because no way a multi billion dollar company even pays attention to anything he says... then he gets an in game item named after him... ROFL

He didn't call for a nerf he just said it was going to come. Either way, I agree that WHU is pretty useless for more experienced hunters

[Realization]

Talk to peers in more progressed guilds for any information, or see who they talk to for advice, it's what I do.

[Hurpdurp]

WHU is good to give you the basics, but I would not expect to much more out of his site. Saying that, he has done a lot for the community (not all I agreed with but thats why its my/his opinion.) His podcast is great, but thats about all I pay attention to these days.

I do not see the logic in if you are not 8/8 HM then you have no room to give others advice. Knowing your values, rotations, and such can be learned by anyone... not just 8/8 HM.

[Vulkrin]

Frostheim/WHU does not give end game information out nor claims that he does. The information he posts is on a very new comer level. Its great for new comers to the hunter class. Any of us can give the information Frostheim gives, it's fairly simple and requires some math. His information is clearly more for the basics than end game content. However in the past I believe I remember him making some sort of quide or tip for some end game bosses in BWD and he got some crap for it in the comments because he does not do the end game raiding himself.

[Shinzai]

I don't really think this is an issue of trust, so much as it's an issue of having a lot of data available and knowing how to apply it. These people aren't teachers, expected to guide you through every single possibility, they're mostly about giving you formulas and ways of interpreting data.

Zeherah is all about doing the maths for you. It's not 100% correct and shouldn't be taken as such. Femaledwarf.com can't take into account every tangent and play style that may occur. It gives you a base on which you can build the foundations for how to gear and min-max what's available to you.

Same goes for Whitefyst. His data is presented in the understanding that you know what to take from it, how to use it and work through it for yourself. If you just read what the top damage rotation is atm, then leave, you will have gained nothing and probably done more harm than good.

WHU, on the other hand, is something else altogether. It really is just a 'training day' site. Go through all of that and you'll be able to play a Hunter 10 times better than if you started the game from scratch and hand no further knowledge of it. However, the data is pretty much all presented as 'This is it. This is all you need to know and that's that.', which I disapprove of.

[Daytraders]

Frostheim/WHU does not give end game information out nor claims that he does. The information he posts is on a very new comer level. Its great for new comers to the hunter class. Any of us can give the information Frostheim gives, it's fairly simple and requires some math. His information is clearly more for the basics than end game content. However in the past I believe I remember him making some sort of quide or tip for some end game bosses in BWD and he got some crap for it in the comments because he does not do the end game raiding himself.

And he has no right to claim that hunters need a nerf when he doesn't even raid. He apparently isn't aware that frost mages aren't used in PvE.

[GrieverXIII]

The great thing about what Frostheim used to do was back everything he said with in game testing. He would use
Zeherahs site, back of the napkin math and in game testing to produce his results. He still puts out BiS list, rotations, builds and what not but hasn't raided since the first tier of this expansion where he only downed the first couple bosses. This means he can't test his conclusion because he doesn't have the gear. The more tiers that go by the more he can't test for weird thing that actual happen in game with higher level of haste, crit and what not. This seem like it would make his results unreliable by his own words - especially during the whole armor pen debate he wrote in depth about not relying solely spreadsheets.

I read WHU since the second month it was a site it had/has good info. So I know he never was ahead of the curve when it came to progression. But he'd have the appropriate gear though when he wrote about stuff

Fan boys and anti-fans please refrain from commenting. It that add nothing to the discussion that frost saved you from being a melee hunter or cuz your jealous and hate him cuz hes popluar and not a hardcore raider

He always gave a good base to new Hunters starting PvE and learning, he's amazing for that, gotta start somewhere and he really helps cutting the learning curve imo. But as far as min/maxing goes, its hard to 100% rely on anyone's opinion, outside actual spreadsheets, and specialy since cata secondary stat revamp, a lot of it comes from personal preference and gameplay style too (i'm looking at you, haste values).