Turning off the "5% buff" is not an option...

[Abandon]

Why? There's LFR and normal you can "progress" in and "see the content" in. What's wrong with getting stuck in an optional mode that is designed with the sole purpose of being challenging?

Nothing, that's why you can turn it off.

Why can't there be any content anymore that would actually force you to up your game and develop your guild instead of just waiting for Blizzard to lower the bar and let you through anyway?

There is.
Turn off the buff.
Done.

How is it that people keep ignoring this.

[Nigeldruid]

How is it that people keep ignoring this.

For the same reason that you keep ignoring that people don't see turning it off as real content. I can also take off all my gear and all of a sudden BoT would be a challenge again, but that doesn't mean I want to do it.

[Abandon]

TBC, which many people seem to think was horrible for "casuals" and catered to the hardcore saw the greatest increase in subscribers ever (we are now below TBC numbers). WotLK saw barely any growth and the sub numbers were stagnant all the way through. Cataclysm promised to get back to the roots, but it failed to do so, instead going back to even easier and more mindless content.

Actually the hardcore guilds at the time said TBC was an easymode casual mess which catered to the majority and only had one decently challenging raid compared to Vanilla. Read and enjoy:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ld+post+thread

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 03:00 PM ----------

For the same reason that you keep ignoring that people don't see turning it off as real content.

Actually the main reason given so far is "We want the raid to be as easy as possible so we can kill it and get higher ranking, but we want bragging rights about doing it in the un-nerfed mode, even though we didn't."

I can also take off all my gear and all of a sudden BoT would be a challenge again, but that doesn't mean I want to do it.

Yes, how dare Blizzard put the tiniest amount of decision making in the hands of players. Damn them.

[Brett Skullcrack]

How is it that people keep ignoring this.

People are not ignoring it. People have explained multiple times why you can't do it in practice, and why nobody did in practice in ICC. But you keep ignoring it.

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 03:02 PM ----------

Actually the hardcore guilds at the time said TBC was an easymode casual mess which catered to the majority and only had one decently challenging raid compared to Vanilla.

Yes I know they said that. I was talking about what people say about TBC now. What's your point?

[Varyk]

TBC, which many people seem to think was horrible for "casuals" and catered to the hardcore saw the greatest increase in subscribers ever (we are now below TBC numbers). WotLK saw barely any growth and the sub numbers were stagnant all the way through. Cataclysm promised to get back to the roots, but it failed to do so, instead going back to even easier and more mindless content.

That has signifigantly more to do with the fact that WoW was still new and catching on, not because of the content of the expansion (specifically the raids, Illidan being in the game was huge for most new players that most likely played Warcraft).


Explain how a 5% increase to damage/healing makes a boss mindless? 5% is such a small amount, it will do what it was meant to do, help guilds that are "right there" in terms of killing a boss get it down and continue progressing. Of course when it gets to 20-35% it becomes much easier, but that's after most decent to good guilds have finished the raid, have perfected tactics, so on and so forth. Bad players will still fail to mechanics, they will still miss interrupts, and be out of position.

[Lord Blackmore]

The "race" isn't just between the top10 guilds. Every guild has its opponent

How about.. No? Most guilds aren't competing at all. So most guilds don't have "opponents".

Obviously if you're playing "just for fun" with your friends you can turn the buff off if you so desire. But lets be honest, if you want to stay competitive at any level, you can't turn the buff off. You simply can't.

Sorry, but I'm not buying the alleged recruitment woes for guilds who use the buff. And with the buff, the playing field is level for everyone still "competing". The bottom line is that people need to complain about something and this is just another in a long line of complaints.

[Deleted]

For the same reason that you keep ignoring that people don't see turning it off as real content. I can also take off all my gear and all of a sudden BoT would be a challenge again, but that doesn't mean I want to do it.

You not wanting to do it =/= there not being the option.
People not seeing it as real content =/= there not being the option to do it.
People not wanting to return to BoT doesn’t mean it isn’t there anymore.
Hell we do regularly run BT with a few guys just for the fun of it… it doesn’t mean it isn’t real content, it just isn’t challenging content anymore.

When will people see that?

[Lord Blackmore]

TBC, which many people seem to think was horrible for "casuals" and catered to the hardcore saw the greatest increase in subscribers ever (we are now below TBC numbers). WotLK saw barely any growth and the sub numbers were stagnant all the way through. Cataclysm promised to get back to the roots, but it failed to do so, instead going back to even easier and more mindless content.

And of course, you'll be able to provide factual, reliable, unbiased data to support your implied assertion that the subscriber increase was due to more "hardcore" players wanting to play. I mean you have this data. Right?

*crickets*

The reality is you have no friggin' idea why subs went up. You just assume that the reason is the one that fits your view of what wow should be.

A far more likely reason is that wow was (and is) the most popular MMO and more people wanted to play it. Not just more "hardcore" people.

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 08:23 AM ----------

People are not ignoring it. People have explained multiple times why you can't do it in practice, and why nobody did in practice in ICC. But you keep ignoring it.

Oh right. Guilds who are "competing" can't turn it off. We should just ignore the fact that most guilds are not in a position to be competing for anything. We should just ignore the fact that guilds who are "competing" will be doing so on a level playing field, because all of the guilds competing will be using the buff. Or perhaps we should ignore that guilds who aren't progressing well or have hit roadblock (including some of those guilds who are allegedly competing) very likely need a little help from Blizzard.

I mean, really, we should just ignore all of the counter arguments in favor simply accepting the "we can't turn it off" argument.

On what planet is that something people should do?

[Nigeldruid]

Actually the main reason given so far is "We want the raid to be as easy as possible so we can kill it and get higher ranking, but we want bragging rights about doing it in the un-nerfed mode, even though we didn't."

Oh well, I agree that bragging rights and the likes can be shoved right up. I can give you my argument then. I raid twice a week, 3 hours a night, to a total of 6 hours a week. We are as casual as organized raiding gets. We had a 3 week break over christmas with no possibility for progress due to people paying attention to their real life, as casual raiding should leave room for. We are currently sat at 3/8 heroic. We hope to be able to get to 5/8 before the nerf hits. We have not hit a wall, we just haven't spend enough time. Now to me there are three elements to this. A raiding schedule, a set of challenges, and a competition (people progressing at a similar pace). Now I have two options. I can turn off the buff. That would leave me with the same set of challenges as the content would remain unchanged, however assuming that any competition will use the buff I would either have to change my raiding schedule, or give up the friendly competition. Alternative I can use the buff and keep the same competition without changing my raiding schedule, but that would change the set of heroic bosses that I have left to progress through.

[Smigel]

If what you're really concerned about is your bragging rights, couldn't you get the kill without the debuff and wave that around as your trophy? WoL parses could confirm that you killed the boss without it.

[Deleted]

Oh well, I agree that bragging rights and the likes can be shoved right up. I can give you my argument then. I raid twice a week, 3 hours a night, to a total of 6 hours a week. We are as casual as organized raiding gets. We had a 3 week break over christmas with no possibility for progress due to people paying attention to their real life, as casual raiding should leave room for. We are currently sat at 3/8 heroic. We hope to be able to get to 5/8 before the nerf hits. We have not hit a wall, we just haven't spend enough time. Now to me there are three elements to this. A raiding schedule, a set of challenges, and a competition (people progressing at a similar pace). Now I have two options. I can turn off the buff. That would leave me with the same set of challenges as the content would remain unchanged, however assuming that any competition will use the buff I would either have to change my raiding schedule, or give up the friendly competition. Alternative I can use the buff and keep the same competition without changing my raiding schedule, but that would change the set of heroic bosses that I have left to progress through.

So you have made the choice of doing IRL things first (which btw you should) but this choice leads to making another choice, which is the one you mentioned: chosing between the challenge and the progress now.
Let me break a fact: life is full of these kind of choices. The only thing that is to be done is to make the choice and hope you have made the one you won’t regret later (or regret the least)
Blizzard has put in a choice you have to make, and whether you like that or not, the choice is there.

[cabreil]

Has the community gotten so horrible we need be reminded not to make asses of ourselves before every thread?

Back on topic. I can understand not wanting to use it but I think it's like a "hey, if you don't have it by now you need some help" kinda thing.

[Derpyhooves]

It never ceases to amaze me how people will blow some of the most insignificant things out of proportion. 5% just isn't a big deal, if you are hitting enrage or having sub 5% wipes on a progression boss it will be just enough to push you over the edge to get that kill, maybe increase your progression by a week at the most when you would have got the kill next week with a little more gear and practice. Its not like the heavy handed nerfs they did in firelands where guilds went from 1/7 to 6/7 in a week and I don't remember there being that much QQ when that happened.

[Nosonia]

So you have made the choice of doing IRL things first (which btw you should) but this choice leads to making another choice, which is the one you mentioned: chosing between the challenge and the progress now.
Let me break a fact: life is full of these kind of choices. The only thing that is to be done is to make the choice and hope you have made the one you won’t regret later (or regret the least)
Blizzard has put in a choice you have to make, and whether you like that or not, the choice is there.

Your failing to understand the consequences of that choice though.

Many of us do not have 4 weeks off work when expansion releases to do nothing but grind it till we win... so many of us progress at a normal rate, more as blizzard designed it.. we raid 2-3 nights a week for 2-4 hours a night...

The race is still very much on, whether you guys want to admit it or not.. many guilds are still trying to get their server firsts.. why can't you understand that?

If a guild is serious about getting server first, they have NO choice but to do with the buff.

I don't understand why people can't understand this? Video gaming has evolved over the last 10 years and became something that is more then just FUN, its COMPETITION. Laugh at us all you want, first place team in league of legends season 1 won 1 million dollars... that's nothing to laugh about.

[Nelrock]

If it's "smart business" why are subs dropping like a rock?

Economy?
WoW has had a pretty long life cycle? How many games are people still playing, in mass, 7 years later?
Newer games out?
Late stages of an expansion?
Real life?

There's plenty of reasons subscriptions would drop off. When MoP drops...or shortly before...I'm sure we'll see a rise in subs.
Doesn't change the fact that Bliz is in the business of making money...and keeping the majority of their player base happy prolongs how long they can do that.

[Ryme]

It is an option. You just don't want to do it.

It's an option in the same way revising for a test is an option, if you don't do it, you're putting yourself at a very large disadvantage to those that do. Not using the buff will cause you guild to fall behind in terms of realm progression, which means less players of the skill level you desire will want to join you, which offers the strong possibility that your later progression will be pushed further downhill.

[Nelrock]

Your failing to understand the consequences of that choice though.

Many of us do not have 4 weeks off work when expansion releases to do nothing but grind it till we win... so many of us progress at a normal rate, more as blizzard designed it.. we raid 2-3 nights a week for 2-4 hours a night...

The race is still very much on, whether you guys want to admit it or not.. many guilds are still trying to get their server firsts.. why can't you understand that?

If a guild is serious about getting server first, they have NO choice but to do with the buff.

I don't understand why people can't understand this? Video gaming has evolved over the last 10 years and became something that is more then just FUN, its COMPETITION. Laugh at us all you want, first place team in league of legends season 1 won 1 million dollars... that's nothing to laugh about.

You're not racing against the people that have already won. They've already won.
You're racing against the people that haven't. You're getting the buff...they're getting the buff...race is still on.

How long do they wait for you to get your server first? Until MoP is out and you're back completing the run in MoP gear because you couldn't get it done prior?

[Brett Skullcrack]

And of course, you'll be able to provide factual, reliable, unbiased data to support your implied assertion that the subscriber increase was due to more "hardcore" players wanting to play. I mean you have this data. Right?

I never made such an assertion, implied or otherwise. And it would be pretty stupid to assume I did, since it should be plainly clear that the majority of the player base was not "hardcore". The point was simply that there is no shred of evidence that the current "casual friendly" philosophy is actually enjoyed more by the players than the TBC style "hardcore" philosophy.

Guilds who are "competing" can't turn it off. We should just ignore the fact that most guilds are not in a position to be competing for anything. We should just ignore the fact that guilds who are "competing" will be doing so on a level playing field, because all of the guilds competing will be using the buff.

I don't know why I need to keep repeating this over and over, can you not read the thread? You compete until you finish the content. Period. It's not necessarily competition that anyone outside a small group of people care about, but it's competition nonetheless. It can be competition like gaining one rank on your server so that you get first pick on recruits over some other guild. Competition isn't just about world firsts, you know.

It is only a level playing field if everyone chooses to use the buff, which, as per elementary game theory, they all will. So in reality you really have no choice unless you want to put yourself in an inferior position (and as a result lose out).

Or perhaps we should ignore that guilds who aren't progressing well or have hit roadblock (including some of those guilds who are allegedly competing) very likely need a little help from Blizzard.

We're talking about hardmode, if people are stuck in LFR or normal mode, by all means give them buffs. But doing it in a completely optional hardmode, that is just doing the same bosses again, whose only reason to exist is to be the ultimate challenge in the game, the only place where true skill has any place in this game, the only content that would still require you to push yourself and improve your skills... is just stupid.

[Nigeldruid]

So you have made the choice of doing IRL things first (which btw you should) but this choice leads to making another choice, which is the one you mentioned: chosing between the challenge and the progress now.
Let me break a fact: life is full of these kind of choices. The only thing that is to be done is to make the choice and hope you have made the one you won’t regret later (or regret the least)
Blizzard has put in a choice you have to make, and whether you like that or not, the choice is there.

There's nothing in your post I don't agree with.

But why is this choice needed? Before we could have both. What bothers me is that I can't understand who this benefits. If I could find a large group of people who genuinely enjoyed raiding and could tell me that this is only a good thing for them I might change my mind, but as for now I have not encountered any other argument than "You have the choice". I never asked for the choice, it was fine as it was!

[malkara]

it was fine as it was!

And this is where you have to look at the choice from Blizzards' PoV. They have said time and time again that they have a wide range of data from all levels and raids on what people clear and don't clear. They have used all this information to make a decision about their game that they feel will make their game a lot more enjoyable by a large group of their data.

You saying it was fine as it was, is just that "You saying it".