"Americans have no freedoms"

[Deleted]

1. "Freedom" and "privacy" are two entirely different things. There are few countries in the world (that have some form of central government) where the population has as much "freedom" and "rights" as Americans do. Privacy is an entirely different thing. 9/11 and the ensuing legislative changes killed off the last bit of it we had left. Currently, the only people in the world that have privacy are primitive tribes that are yet to be discovered. Everyone else can be 100% monitored, by government agencies and private companies that have the resources for it.

Freedom and privacy are very closely linked together. How about the fact that american find it completly ok to be supervised using cameras, thats an example of a simple +1 for "security" and -1 for privacy. Dont get me started on the fact that they can and mostly will monitor your phone calls, text messages, emails etc.

[Dryade]

Do you have any inclination what the NDAA, H.R. 1540 law represents? Fuck SOPA/PIPA, they are nothing compared to Martial Law being declared on US soil. Essentially giving the military the right to detain any American at any time, for anything, and voids our right to Habeus Corpus.

The Patriot Act, gives the US Government the ability to tap your phones and emails. Search through your medical and financial records, if they suspect you of being a "terrorist" or a "threat".

Americans are losing their freedoms, though, we aren't as bad as China or any Middle Eastern country yet. But, within the decade the US Government will control every aspect of our life.

Thats right people, keep voting those Dems and Republicans in, they are watching out for us.

[KingArachnis]

I hate Americans..They are stupid fat and lazy.

[Bolson13]

1. "Freedom" and "privacy" are two entirely different things. There are few countries in the world (that have some form of central government) where the population has as much "freedom" and "rights" as Americans do. Privacy is an entirely different thing. 9/11 and the ensuing legislative changes killed off the last bit of it we had left. Currently, the only people in the world that have privacy are primitive tribes that are yet to be discovered. Everyone else can be 100% monitored, by government agencies and private companies that have the resources for it.

Of course freedom and privacy are not the same but they are definatly linked. You have more freedom as soon as you gain more privacy since not being private restricts you because you cannot do it secretly if you choose to.

Regarding freedom, it is not measurable but I can guarantee that except for the freedoms in the marketplace (freedom for businesses, which are not actual people though involve people) a lot of countries could lay claim to being more free.
I also don't think anybody would disagree that citizens of the United states have very little freedom though compared to many places in the world but it is obvious that freedom of the average citizen has decreased over the course of the last 10 years. And with upcomming laws it definatly does not keep in pace with other westernised countries.

[Deleted]

Freedom and privacy are very closely linked together. How about the fact that american find it completly ok to be supervised using cameras, thats an example of a simple +1 for "security" and -1 for privacy. Dont get me started on the fact that they can and mostly will monitor your phone calls, text messages, emails etc.

You're right; agreeing to being constantly monitored by camera's (and other means) is exactly that: a tradeoff.
You lose privacy, you gain security.
You lose privacy because some anonymous data analist you will never know about might at some point view you on a camera while you're doing your shopping, or having a tumble with your best friend's wife, or while buying pot, or running through traffic lights, or get into a bar fight - and they really won't care.
You gain security because if some pervert decides to abduct a child, some psycho decides to murder some people, or some terrorist wants to blow shit up, there is a vastly increased chance they will be caught before they get to execute their plan.

Personally i dont plan to do any of the things "big brother" is looking for and i can only cheer for goverments doing everything they can to stop people from blowing me up.

[Catta]

1. "Freedom" and "privacy" are two entirely different things. There are few countries in the world (that have some form of central government) where the population has as much "freedom" and "rights" as Americans do. Privacy is an entirely different thing. 9/11 and the ensuing legislative changes killed off the last bit of it we had left. Currently, the only people in the world that have privacy are primitive tribes that are yet to be discovered. Everyone else can be 100% monitored, by government agencies and private companies that have the resources for it.

2. Elected officials in the USA, generally speaking, do not serve the nation, nor it's people. Due to the tremendous impact funds have on election campains, anyone who is in any position of power was put there by corporations, industries, or individuals with the funds to do so, for one purpose: to protect their interests. If you do not have the backing of corporations/industries/individuals that have the money to bring you to power, you simply will not be able to achief a position of power. This is exactly what is happening in this case: bills are proposed and will possibly pass that do not serve the nation, nor it's people, but only the selected few that invested the money to get this bill passed.

I ask you, how do you claim that americans have more freedoms than western europeans... And before you say guns, we can buy guns as well... We just dont really do it much

[Deleted]

You're right; agreeing to being constantly monitored by camera's (and other means) is exactly that: a tradeoff.
You lose privacy, you gain security.
You lose privacy because some anonymous data analist you will never know about might at some point view you on a camera while you're doing your shopping, or having a tumble with your best friend's wife, or while buying pot, or running through traffic lights, or get into a bar fight - and they really won't care.
You gain security because if some pervert decides to abduct a child, some psycho decides to murder some people, or some terrorist wants to blow shit up, there is a vastly increased chance they will be caught before they get to execute their plan.

Personally i dont plan to do any of the things "big brother" is looking for and i can only cheer for goverments doing everything they can to stop people from blowing me up.

i would never trade the illusion of having more "security" for my privacy, cause going down that road will not save your ass if something ever happens.

[Bolson13]

You're right; agreeing to being constantly monitored by camera's (and other means) is exactly that: a tradeoff.
You lose privacy, you gain security.
You lose privacy because some anonymous data analist you will never know about might at some point view you on a camera while you're doing your shopping, or having a tumble with your best friend's wife, or while buying pot, or running through traffic lights, or get into a bar fight - and they really won't care.
You gain security because if some pervert decides to abduct a child, some psycho decides to murder some people, or some terrorist wants to blow shit up, there is a vastly increased chance they will be caught before they get to execute their plan.

Personally i dont plan to do any of the things "big brother" is looking for and i can only cheer for goverments doing everything they can to stop people from blowing me up.

And then you have this muslim girl who will be killed by their parents because she had sex before marriage (or rode a horse) and now has to have her whateveritiscalledmembrane fixed. Unfortunately it is forbidden in 99% of the countries to have something removed from your medical history yet in some it is okay and you see many muslim girls flock to those for such surgeries saving their lives.

See how privacy can work the other way?

[ciggy]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Ben Franklin.

When a freedom is taken, no matter how small, it truly matters.

Comparing what we have to china/iran just makes us realize how bad it has gotten.



All this being said, I think we need all of our freedoms back.

[Deleted]

Regarding freedom, it is not measurable but I can guarantee that except for the freedoms in the marketplace (freedom for businesses, which are not actual people though involve people) a lot of countries could lay claim to being more free.
I also don't think anybody would disagree that citizens of the United states have very little freedom though compared to many places in the world but it is obvious that freedom of the average citizen has decreased over the course of the last 10 years. And with upcomming laws it definatly does not keep in pace with other westernised countries.

It's really rude to say stuff like that, because your (assuming you're an american?) ancestors bled and died fighting for the freedomes you have today, and it's plain wrong. Can you explain what you mean by "citizens of the United states have very little freedom though compared to many places in the world " because i just dont get how you can say stuff like that in a world where you'll get killed for not following the mainstream religion in half the world, you will get locked up and tortured for speaking out against the goverments in some of the largest countries in the world, and you will be gunned down by special forces if you form an armed militia the way is legally permitted in the USA.

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 12:09 PM ----------

i would never trade the illusion of having more "security" for my privacy, cause going down that road will not save your ass if something ever happens.

Maybe you should stop and think how many failed terrorist attempts there have been over the past few decades that we dont even know about, how many lives were saved through it and how safe and secure we feel thanks to it, and try to weight that against the real discomfort you've suffored from being monitored by big brother, which is 0. Or are you so naieve to think the handfull of succesfull terroristic attacks we've had or heard about over the past decade were the only ones attempted?

As long as you dont plan heinous criminal acts, being monitored by big brother will give you 0 discomfort or whatnot. I honestly dont get why people stress over it. I find it comforting to know "someone is watching my back". They're not my enemy, they're not there to annoy or grief me, a simple civilian. They're there to protect me from people that would cause harm to me and my surroundings.

[Deleted]

First of, I do not like America, nor American freedom. To me it resembles force. Afghanistan, Iraq... trying to force people to live free the American way just doesn't work and that has not been the only time. Your beloved Western democracy does not work on every single country in the world, your beloved privacy is just not needed everywhere.
In different cultures, there are different standards. In the Republic days of China (when Sun Yat-sen toppled the last dynasty), things were very unruly and democracy and freedom for all didn't solve it. Not saying he did bad for trying, but he just missed the power a more authoritarian government would have had (traditionally in China). Even though I personally love Sun Yat-sen and revere him as a hero, he was trying to adopt a system that had no historical basis in his country.
The French revolution, the American war of independence - most countries never experienced them, so introducing them to the values created by those revolutions and uprisings and expecting them to start using it... that's straight-out bizarre. By FORCING them to adopt democracy, freedom, etc you're achieving the exact opposite.

I do have to note, however, that I'm slightly biased, since I am naturally against Western democracy, imperialism (I see forcing the entire world to adopt Western values as a form of imperialism), war (something Western nations have a talent for) ESPECIALLY when it's carried out by a country that is not even democratic in my eyes (since they've got the Republicans and the Democrats and nobody knows any different - both are right wing, AKA no left opposition present in parliament - I'd call them 2 factions of the same party, same as what Noam Chomsky says).
What I am in favor of: Chinese socialism, world revolution, full-communism, etc, etc. You get the idea. I am authoritarian, anti-capitalist, blablabla. In many ways I support the enemy of the West and agree on their ideas (if well executed). Even worse, my favorite political leaders and ideologists are Ho Chi Minh (Vietnam) and Zhou Enlai (China). The Kim-regime in North Korea only gets very limited support - I support their sovereignty, but completely dislike their way of doing it, although I am sure it really isn't as bad as you see in Western media.

The idea of unlimited freedom just means very little to me. I LIKE the idea of the government taking care of me. The ideas of free education, no unemployment and more - what we saw under Mao (not the greatest man, I agree with the Chinese government: 70% good, 30% evil) - that's something I really like.
What I do find funny, though, is that America is making laws that resemble the Great Firewall of China and go even further while still complaining about Chinese censorship. When my brother was in the US, I asked him to look up a picture of an American president bowing to the Japanese emperor (which is normal) and he could not find a single picture of it on non-Marxist/non-Anarchist sites. Yes, there is censorship in the land of the free and it will only become worse.

~ A friendly Leftist

P.S. Sorry for my not-so-great English, I am horribly sleepy since my neighbours kicked down my door asking me if I'd like to drink a cup of tea.

[Deleted]

It's really rude to say stuff like that, because your (assuming you're an american?) ancestors bled and died fighting for the freedomes you have today, and it's plain wrong. Can you explain what you mean by "citizens of the United states have very little freedom though compared to many places in the world " because i just dont get how you can say stuff like that in a world where you'll get killed for not following the mainstream religion in half the world, you will get locked up and tortured for speaking out against the goverments in some of the largest countries in the world, and you will be gunned down by special forces if you form an armed militia the way is legally permitted in the USA.

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 12:09 PM ----------



Maybe you should stop and think how many failed terrorist attempts there have been over the past few decades that we dont even know about, how many lives were saved through it and how safe and secure we feel thanks to it, and try to weight that against the real discomfort you've suffored from being monitored by big brother, which is 0. Or are you so naieve to think the handfull of succesfull terroristic attacks we've had or heard about over the past decade were the only ones attempted?

As long as you dont plan heinous criminal acts, being monitored by big brother will give you 0 discomfort or whatnot. I honestly dont get why people stress over it. I find it comforting to know "someone is watching my back". They're not my enemy, they're not there to annoy or grief me, a simple civilian. They're there to protect me from people that would cause harm to me and my surroundings.

Im sorry, but i cant take America to seriously when people talk about it in this manner. I mean the country was founded by slave owners who said everyone is to be an equal..... yeah except for black, women.... yeah basicly everyone who aint white and wealthy see where im going with this :P ?

[Bolson13]

It's really rude to say stuff like that, because your (assuming you're an american?) ancestors bled and died fighting for the freedomes you have today, and it's plain wrong. Can you explain what you mean by "citizens of the United states have very little freedom though compared to many places in the world " because i just dont get how you can say stuff like that in a world where you'll get killed for not following the mainstream religion in half the world, you will get locked up and tortured for speaking out against the goverments in some of the largest countries in the world, and you will be gunned down by special forces if you form an armed militia the way is legally permitted in the USA.

I am not an American and the sentence is actual not how I meant to say it, sorry.

What I wanted to say is that "I also dont think anybody would agree that citizens of the US have very little freedom though compared to many places in the world". Meaning they actually still have a lot. In that way the sentence afterwards makes sense as well.

[Shâréz]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Ben Franklin.

While those words and the person who said it are admirable and deserve some respect for what they acomplished, they were said by a person living over 200 years ago. The world was a very different place then. Would he have said the same thing had he lived in the world as we know it now?

[Bolson13]

Maybe you should stop and think how many failed terrorist attempts there have been over the past few decades that we dont even know about, how many lives were saved through it and how safe and secure we feel thanks to it, and try to weight that against the real discomfort you've suffored from being monitored by big brother, which is 0. Or are you so naieve to think the handfull of succesfull terroristic attacks we've had or heard about over the past decade were the only ones attempted?

As long as you dont plan heinous criminal acts, being monitored by big brother will give you 0 discomfort or whatnot. I honestly dont get why people stress over it. I find it comforting to know "someone is watching my back". They're not my enemy, they're not there to annoy or grief me, a simple civilian. They're there to protect me from people that would cause harm to me and my surroundings.

Chances of me being affected in a terrorism attack a close to 0% as well. I don't see a reason why I would give up my privacy for such a chance. I think people in like north korea or China would disagree about your big brother statements as well though but I guess giving them more and more tools is okay with you even though you give them the capability to control you as well like in NK.

Another thing to note is how trustworthy are the people monitoring your information when it comes to keeping it safe. I seem to remember some guy pretty much putting up a lot of sensitive military material on wikipedia? Nice if that happens with your personal information so anybody can just commit identity fraud on your name.


I also already gave another example of why privacy is important as well.

[casuallyhardcore]

As of 9/11 the Irony is that from a political standpoint American's have lost more "freedoms" with certain bills passed like the Patriot act. Sopa is another example if it did or something like it did pass, especially when the government says "china you no censor internet"....goes and proposes a law just as bad if not worse. But the defense authorization act lets the government in essence arrest, imprison, kill, torture American citizens without due cause, trial or even proof. In essence it's possible to argue that with this American's have zero freedom from their government with above clause, they only have freedom and rights when it comes to dealing with non-government Americans.

[Deleted]

Im sorry, but i cant take America to seriously when people talk about it in this manner. I mean the country was founded by slave owners who said everyone is to be an equal..... yeah except for black, women.... yeah basicly everyone who aint white and wealthy see where im going with this :P ?

No, i honestly dont. Slavery was perfectly normal, in the past. Ancient egypt was built on it. The romans and greeks measured the success of their military campains on how many slaves they were able to bring home. Europe built it's current economic wealth by robbing 90% of africa & asia blind. And then we came to realise slavery was in fact not cool, so we stopped doing it, and realised it's not cool to suppress women, or to beat children, etc. Those are just social evolutions.

The people that first emigrated to america, and who formed the USA were people that were not able to function in strict societies like the europeans were at the time. They were rebels, criminals, anarchists. THOSE are the people who built the USA, and they built it the way the wanted it - with as little govermental power as possible, with as much freedom as possible. And those ideals still persist today. You lost 100% of your privacy, but you kept 90% of your freedom.

[Clevername]

Anyone else get really pissed off when you hear someone say this?

With all this SOPA/PIPA crap going on, more and more idiots on facebook/etc keep on saying "I thought we had freedom in America..." or "The Gov't takes away all our freedom", and my only response is always:


If you think Americans have no freedom, go to Iran, go to Syria, China or North Korea. You'll be begging for American freedom in a day.



Anyone else have opinions on this?

Thank God you said this, I thought I was opening yet another of the 9000+ 'You Americans Suck and Here is What You Should Do' threads. I wish they would just open another section within this offtopic forum just so all the opinionated Europeans would have a place to centralize their thoughts about our country and what we could do better.

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 11:23 AM ----------

like... littering?

or trespassing, vandalism and even assault, couple that with some recreational drug use... I'd say that's decent reason.

[ciggy]

While those words and the person who said it are admirable and deserve some respect for what they acomplished, they were said by a person living over 200 years ago. The world was a very different place then. Would he have said the same thing had he lived in the world as we know it now?

The world is so different now, it would be hard to wonder what our "founding fathers" would have to say about it.

I don't mind a bit of big brother, but some of the stuff that goes on is a bit far. You take away enough freedoms for a bit of temporary safety, i don't know the point that is too much. I know we have to have security, but some stuff goes too far.


I love my country, I love the fact i can go from some random dirt poor kid to a rich bastard with nothing more than a good idea. That is a different subject though.

[Clevername]

Honestly, I wouldn't lump China in with those other countries. I've been to China. My best friend lives there. Most rampant capitalism I've ever seen. In 20 years they did what took Europe and America 200. When I was in Shanghai a few years ago there were more construction cranes in the city than in all of North America combined. Also, I drank beer basically anywhere and everywhere I wanted in public, in cars, etc.

I'm not saying it's a bastion of personal liberties... but if I'm 6 inches on the other side of my apartment window I can't drink a beer because I'd be on the public sidewalk. Just saying... America has some fucked up shit too.

Yeah I could say the same thing about downtown Dubai.. your point?