LFG Tool Definitely Required

[namelessone]

Except in a chat, you're not faceless. You have a name, you have a server, you have a reputation you (currently) have to worry about.

In LFD, you've got nothing. Name, server, reputation... none of that matters. You can be a different person on a different place the next day. Failing that, you'll never see them again, so who gives a damn if you afk through the instance or ninja-pull or need everything?

So why not set up a system that would address the anonymity problem? A system that allows players to rate each other and see the rating? A smart system that groups people with similar ratings, so that assholes get grouped with assholes? You know, something that allows you to build up reputation across servers. How about cross-server friends lists? Cross server grouping? Something that allows you to establish social connection to cross-server players?

There are PLENTY of things you can do. Removing a useful system is the laziest and the worst solution.

[Ragnarocket]

Keep it clean everyone. We're keeping an eye on this thread so keep your posts considerate and constructive. Anything past this could be infracted if you are not careful. ~Rag

[guardian_titan]

Back during the Burning Crusade era in WoW, I remember people feeling forced to PvP to do PvE. I myself was forced to gear my resto shaman through PvP before I was allowed to raid with my guild. I actually did TK and SSC in S1 PvP gear before I was even attuned for Kara. I was then told to gear myself through PvP again when I was told I could go elemental shortly after patch 2.4 hit. I said screw it and left the guild. I also geared my druid and my paladin through PvP back in TBC just to raid which was frustrating, especially since my shaman and druid are alliance and we always lost. SWTOR is going the same route. Many feel they have to PvP to be competitive in PvE. After my PvP bout in TBC, I hate PvP with a passion and have no interest in returning to it in SWTOR just to do the side of the game I do like (PvE). I played a few games of hutball and void star, remembered why I hated PvP, and haven't been back. If you want to PvE, PvP should just be a mini-game to break things up. Same is true in the reverse. PvE should be a mini-game for PvPers. Neither should be required to advance in the other, and yet PvP is required to advance in PvE for many. As raid/PvP tiers are added, people will be forced even more into PvP just to keep up in PvE just like we were back in TBC.

PvP is much easier to gear up in since you can AFK in the fleet or run off to quest while you're in the PvP queue. In comparison, you have to sit and spam general (whether it be at the fleet or on a planet) for a PvE group. Realistically, would you rather just queue and forget or constantly have to interrupt yourself to spam general and hope someone answers you? I have other things I can be doing rather than sitting at the fleet spamming general for a group. I can be doing dailies or space missions. Or perhaps I can be running about exploring and looking for datacrons. The WoW LFG system is the same as the PvP BG system yet no one complains about the BG system. Who chats in BGs to coordinate? All they do is argue and smack talk. I'd rather take a silent dungeon run with 4 other people (or 24 as is the case of the LFR system) than see the chat filled with people insulting each other because someone failed to do something or did something they weren't supposed to. Some people can get rather vulgar.

A LFG is needed and badly. I have a guild on my 50 warrior but we don't do anything but PvP. I want to PvE and when someone does do a group, I get ignored because I happen to be a marauder. Healers in my guild refuse to run with melee DPS. And often when people in general chat are looking for more for their heroic groups, it's either a tank or healer. No one ever looks for a DPS or, more specifically, wants a melee DPS. Why take a marauder when you can take a sorceror, mercenary, or even a sniper?

On top of that, cross realm PvP and even PvE LFG queues will be needed. My guild is like the top PvP guild on my server and apparently some guy is accusing us of cheating at PvP. Mind you, I don't PvP with them. I joined because another guy asked me to who now either quit or is leveling an alt. I just know what my guild tells me regarding warzones, etc. Apparently when the other side realizes it's my guild they're against, they leave the warzone. All my guild can do is huttball and even when it's Empire vs Empire, the other side still leaves. My guild can't survive with that situation so Bioware would have to implement a cross server PvP system to give my guild a chance. Eventually cross realm LFG will be needed as well. Go to the planets and look at populations. As the population gets to 50, there will be fewer doing lower level flashpoints and heroics. Instead of seeing low levels spaming that they're looking for more, level 50s will get whispers asking to be run through a flashpoint because there are no low levels to group with.

TLDR: WTB LFG.

[Vanyali]

So how does one join one of these guilds or communities if they have no way to find them? If you just spam general for hours and people ignore you because they got a guild group, how does that help?

Ignoring the casuals cuts playerbase. Lower playerbase means more people frustrated with not getting groups and more people quitting leading to an even smaller playerbase. Why exclude ANYONE? If you don't want to use it, you don't have to, but some people can't find groups due to server populations, chat limited to planet, or play times. Why exclude these people? These people paying $15/month gives BW more resources to improve your game as well. If you don't like it, and are in a guild that means you don;t have to use it, how does it hurt you for it to be there?

It hurts everyone because server communities go to hell. Without needing the server to do instances, people are free to be however much of an asshole they want to be. And that, on any internet game, is much farther than most people would normally go.

I know on my server we had people start up a global LFG channel. Advertise one in chat. Get people in it. Ask for groups. Voila! Your chat is now server-wide with people that will want to do groups at one point or another.

Paying $15 a month doesn't mean bioware has to cater to people that don't want to put in effort.

[Lathais]

Keep it clean everyone. We're keeping an eye on this thread so keep your posts considerate and constructive. Anything past this could be infracted if you are not careful. ~Rag

Thank you.

[shoooter]

Sounds to me like you want a single player game with mutli-player capacity.

That's not an mmo. An mmo is BUILT on the idea of a community, not single player content and lone-wolf catering.

Welcome to 2012, this isn't Everquest anymore. We don't want to invest hours crafting crap, or learning the minutia of archaic systems to get what we want. We are a generation raised on WoW, and the people who were with it 8 years ago are now adults with busy lives. We want a massively-multiplayer experience that anyone can play in the manner they most enjoy.

By the classic MMO definition, SWTOR is a terrible example. It's just a different kind of multiplayer RPG basically. Limited areas that act more like levels, with very little to discover, all separated from each other. A linear storyline geared more toward a single-player experience. Instances that don't even exist out in the world. All the conveniences of modern MMOs with just enough left out to make you realize they rushed the game to market.

[namelessone]

Advertise one in chat. Get people in it. Ask for groups. Voila!

Voila! And you have a global chat full of unconnected discussions where no one is interested in grouping. Remember global LFG chat in WoW?

[Vanyali]

So why not set up a system that would address the anonymity problem? A system that allows players to rate each other and see the rating? A smart system that groups people with similar ratings, so that assholes get grouped with assholes? You know, something that allows you to build up reputation across servers. How about cross-server friends lists? Cross server grouping? Something that allows you to establish social connection to cross-server players?

There are PLENTY of things you can do. Removing a useful system is the laziest and the worst solution.

You can't do rating on the internet.

Ask someone why they're doing something because you're curious about the spec? minus rating for "being an ass"
Get those same assholes in the group? minus rating on everyone because they can.
Wait for resources? minus rating for being too slow.
Use CC? minus rating for being too slow.

Rating is a good idea on paper, but put it with the anonymous people and you've got a system that's even MORE broken because of the same people.

As for cross server, this isn't one big game - it's a bunch of the same game on different servers. They shouldn't mix. Yeah, I have friends that rolled on another server and it sucks, but if I want to play with them I'll roll on that server. I enjoy leveling, which means I don't mind rerolling, which is a part of my attitude.. but the core of it is that each server is and should be unique.

[KidCanuck]

So don't hang around the fleet and spam chat if you're looking for a level 25 dungeon. Not alot of 25's likely at the fleet. Instead, go to a level 25 planet and use the planet's general chat. That's where all the people at the right level to group with you will be. The whole "sit in Org and spam chat" only works in WoW because everyone is in Org. There are probably 2 whole planets full of people the right level for these flashpoints, go there and ask them.

[Vanyali]

Voila! And you have a global chat full of unconnected discussions where no one is interested in grouping. Remember global LFG chat in WoW?

Being a player-controlled chat, the option to kick is very much there. As was missing in the wow version... and yet, I could still get groups through the chatter of the wow version.

---------- Post added 2012-01-26 at 01:17 PM ----------

Welcome to 2012, this isn't Everquest anymore. We don't want to invest hours crafting crap, or learning the minutia of archaic systems to get what we want. We are a generation raised on WoW, and the people who were with it 8 years ago are now adults with busy lives. We want a massively-multiplayer experience that anyone can play in the manner they most enjoy.

By the classic MMO definition, SWTOR is a terrible example. It's just a different kind of multiplayer RPG basically. Limited areas that act more like levels, with very little to discover, all separated from each other. A linear storyline geared more toward a single-player experience. Instances that don't even exist out in the world. All the conveniences of modern MMOs with just enough left out to make you realize they rushed the game to market.

No amount of "i'm busy" can change an mmo to "i want to play single player 99% of the time and never talk to anyone but group up and get things done".

That's something more like an online FPS. Not an mmo.

[namelessone]

You can't do rating on the internet.

Ask someone why they're doing something because you're curious about the spec? minus rating for "being an ass"
Get those same assholes in the group? minus rating on everyone because they can.
Wait for resources? minus rating for being too slow.
Use CC? minus rating for being too slow.

Rating is a good idea on paper, but put it with the anonymous people and you've got a system that's even MORE broken because of the same people.

As for cross server, this isn't one big game - it's a bunch of the same game on different servers. They shouldn't mix. Yeah, I have friends that rolled on another server and it sucks, but if I want to play with them I'll roll on that server. I enjoy leveling, which means I don't mind rerolling, which is a part of my attitude.. but the core of it is that each server is and should be unique.

There IS rating system on the internet and it works, unless a large group of people intentionally tries to spam it. If you are a good player, other good players will give you good rating. So unless you want to claim that good players are a negligible minority (which is bullshit), the system will work.

Also, it really seems like your ideas about MMO are very outdated by at least 7 years.

[Lathais]

Again, there are other possible solutions to this. They have been suggested in the thread.

Cross Server ignore lists, with the option to share your list with guildies/friends

Rating system, so you can rate the players you've grouped with, have an option to only group with people above a certain rating or within a set amount of your own.

Sure there are more and BW could come up with something to improve the system.

I don't think most of the people arguing for a LFD/R system want it copy-pasted from WoW. They want it improved from WoW.

[namelessone]

Being a player-controlled chat, the option to kick is very much there. As was missing in the wow version... and yet, I could still get groups through the chatter of the wow version.

Good for you, because I couldn't. Not in the time that I could dedicate to the game. So, what's your solution? I shouldn't play this game if I can't invest sufficient time? Do you realize that this approach will kill the game faster than the worst LFG?

[SamR]

So why not set up a system that would address the anonymity problem? A system that allows players to rate each other and see the rating?

Any rating system would have to be positive ratings only or else it would be abused by the trolls. Many similar suggestions have been made by the WoW playerbase to improve LFD/LFR. Rather than a rating system, just something like a "I want to group with them again" list would be nice, though I'm not sure how complicated the backend coding would be.

Once the Battletag system comes out with Diablo 3 and MoP, there'll be much more cross-server grouping in WoW. They're already adding it piece by piece with cross-server raiding and BGs now, but I'm one of those people who dislikes RealID and giving out my real name to people I don't know that well.

I think these are all great improvements and I'm glad Blizzard is working on them to advance the systems while other games are still stuck in the "LFD=bad" mindset.

[Vanyali]

There IS rating system on the internet and it works, unless a large group of people intentionally tries to spam it. If you are a good player, other good players will give you good rating. So unless you want to claim that good players are a negligible minority (which is bullshit), the system will work.

Also, it really seems like your ideas about MMO are very outdated by at least 7 years.

The large majority of people are impatient and want to get their shit done asap in LFG. Hell, I've had guildies that normally wouldn't even THINK of fucking someone over on the server queue up and decide that they're going to take everything from LFR to give to guildies because it's LFR and the solo queue aren't important. Or have groups decide to kick someone because "we have too many of that".

When it comes to LFD situations people will abuse the hell out of any rating system. Whether it's to down-rate everyone of the same class so they have a better shot at loot or for tiny nagging things, people will abuse it. Or just not use it at all... look at MVP votes in BGs. I'd say half the people use it, half the people just wait 10s, stare at the vote because you can't do anything else, then leave.

[namelessone]

Any rating system would have to be positive ratings only or else it would be abused by the trolls. Many similar suggestions have been made by the WoW playerbase to improve LFD/LFR. Rather than a rating system, just something like a "I want to group with them again" list would be nice, though I'm not sure how complicated the backend coding would be.

Sure, could be something like "like/dislike" thing on youtube. You don't see GOOD videos with a lot of dislikes, even though youtube posters are notorious trolls.

[Vanyali]

Good for you, because I couldn't. Not in the time that I could dedicate to the game. So, what's your solution? I shouldn't play this game if I can't invest sufficient time? Do you realize that this approach will kill the game faster than the worst LFG?

Find a guild. Find friends. MMOs are not built to give you everything on a platter... not even instances. If you have limited time, you have limited ability to do things. Old idea? Perhaps. But I don't get to raid on wow OR swtor because of work schedules being so erratic for me and raiding is one of my favorite things, so keep that in mind while judging me. Can't put in the time, can't get the reward.

[Rakoth]

Instead of removing a tool because you feel (don't even dare claim majority, only the WoW devs and SWTOR could get those types of stats) it isn't good is a bad way to go about it.

The idea of LFG is very very good. Who doesn't want a fully functional group with the click of a button? Who doesn't want to be able to find a dungeon no matter where they are questing? Who wants to waste their time in Fleet waiting?


Anti-LFG are against WoW's implementation of LFG. Instead of this useless throwing around of subjective arguments, why not try to think up a solution that would make LFG better.

We already saw how a rating system would work, and the flaws in that type of design. I personally do not have ideas, mostly because the current LFG works for me (I have had very few fully failed groups), but instead of arguing against what, in theory, is a great feature, why not simply argue possible improvements to that feature.

We have smart individuals here, some of the arguments I have read hold ground and most of you aren't trolling. Why not use that intelligence to try and find a solution to the LFG problem?

[namelessone]

The large majority of people are impatient and want to get their shit done asap in LFG. Hell, I've had guildies that normally wouldn't even THINK of fucking someone over on the server queue up and decide that they're going to take everything from LFR to give to guildies because it's LFR and the solo queue aren't important. Or have groups decide to kick someone because "we have too many of that".

When it comes to LFD situations people will abuse the hell out of any rating system. Whether it's to down-rate everyone of the same class so they have a better shot at loot or for tiny nagging things, people will abuse it. Or just not use it at all... look at MVP votes in BGs. I'd say half the people use it, half the people just wait 10s, stare at the vote because you can't do anything else, then leave.

I'm not saying there's a way to solve ALL problems. Sure, having LFG system will have some problems, but the problems of NOT having it include closing the game servers after a few years. Would you rather that happened?

[Deleted]

whats wrong with chatting to your fellow gamers rather than recreate the silent wow df groups where no one says anything and you never see the people again.

i barely see any chatting going on in swtor dungeon groups really....maybe its the lack of autoattack....must...press...buttanz!