U.S. Presidential race - Democrat Discussion

[ptwonline]

Right, so every person who supports Romney is anti-information. Every person who is a Republican doesn't believe in evolution, science, medicine. Every Republican thinks that the job numbers were a hoax.

Please, show me the facts that back up those generalizations.

First you claim that I said it was every single person, then you ask me to defend the generalization. Do I need to even point out the problem here?

Of course it was a generalization. No two people--even if they are part of an identifiable group--is going to have the exact same beliefs on a particular subject. But you know very well what I am talking about here because there have countless examples of it. The BLS unemployment reports and the polls when they favored Obama are merely two more recent examples. Go ahead--try to deny that conservatives were in fairly widespread, popular denial about these. It's not that they didn't have the info. It's that they rejected the information even from what was previously considered an unbiased source. It's not just a few fringe people out there saying it. It's major media outlets, political leaders, business leaders.

[Dakia]

Please show me the facts where he said every

If you think that anything like information is going to sway Romney voters...good luck. They are not low-information, they are ANTI-information.

No exclusionary statements. Saying "Romney voters" and then continuing with "They" doesn't allow for any exclusions of voters who support Romney. You can be certain that at least a portion of them are more than "low-information" and are not "anti-information."

Simply presenting them with info will do no good if it contradicts their preferred worldview. That's why a job report that appears to favor Obama is not real, but the product of corruption. That's polls favoring Obama are part of a media conspiracy to help him win.

Again, with no exclusion statements. In fact, those people who spoke out against the numbers have received negative remarks from other Republicans. Are these people a joke? I think they are. However, it certainly can't be stated that "Romney voters" as a block with no limiting statements think those numbers are tinkered with.

Liberals often have the same problem, but not nearly to the same degree. It's why conservatives in far greater numbers reject global warming outright (nevermind just the man-made part), Evolution, the age of the Earth/universe, the efficicacy and safety of immunization, and the list goes on and on.

I do agree this is where I missed the limiting factor of the statement, "conservatives in far greater numbers." I skipped over it and only saw it while responding to your post.

However, my statement still stands. If you are going to make sweeping generalizations about an entire voting block being misinformed or anti-information, I want to see the numbers to back up your claims.

[ptwonline]

However, my statement still stands. If you are going to make sweeping generalizations about an entire voting block being misinformed or anti-information, I want to see the numbers to back up your claims.

Let's take one that is fairly easy to do some internet research on: people who believe that Obama was not born in the US, or are not sure that he was. There are many polls, go Google up some for yourself rather than have me self-select some that you will try to dismiss. Generally speaking you will see that even after having officials in Hawaii (including Republican ones) vouch for it and even showing his birth certificate publicly, about 1/4 (higher in some polls, lower in others) of Republicans think that Obama was not born in the USA, and closer to 50% either think he was not born in the US or are not sure. This is significantly higher than Democrats, independents, or people outside of the US.

[Dakia]

Let's take one that is fairly easy to do some internet research on: people who believe that Obama was not born in the US, or are not sure that he was. There are many polls, go Google up some for yourself rather than have me self-select some that you will try to dismiss. Generally speaking you will see that even after having officials in Hawaii (including Republican ones) vouch for it and even showing his birth certificate publicly, about 1/4 (higher in some polls, lower in others) of Republicans think that Obama was not born in the USA, and closer to 50% either think he was not born in the US or are not sure. This is significantly higher than Democrats, independents, or people outside of the US.

That still doesn't provide what you stated to be fact. If you were to amend your statement and say that about half of Romney voters, or some similar limiting statement, you would be fine. Your statement, however, is nothing short of a generalization stated as fact with no limiting factors.

If I were to say that "Obama supporters don't want the facts. They believe X, Y Z," you would naturally assume that I mean all Obama supporters, not just a percentage. If I were to say "A good deal Obama supporters don't want the facts. Some of them even believe X, Y, Z," I am providing limiting statements and not touting a generalization toward all Obama supports as fact when it likely isn't true.

[ptwonline]

That still doesn't provide what you stated to be fact. If you were to amend your statement and say that about half of Romney voters, or some similar limiting statement, you would be fine. Your statement, however, is nothing short of a generalization stated as fact with no limiting factors.

If I were to say that "Obama supporters don't want the facts. They believe X, Y Z," you would naturally assume that I mean all Obama supporters, not just a percentage. If I were to say "A good deal Obama supporters don't want the facts. Some of them even believe X, Y, Z," I am providing limiting statements and not touting a generalization toward all Obama supports as fact when it likely isn't true.

See what I mean? I give him an example of what he demands and he immediately ignores it. You have just helped to prove my point.

[Dakia]

See what I mean? I give him an example of what he demands and he immediately ignores it. You have just helped to prove my point.

No, I asked for facts of a generalization that you stated where Romney voters, a statement that could only be taken as a generalization of all Romney supporters, are low information and anti-information. You provided something that neither backed up that statement of rescinded such a generalization. All this requires is qualifying statements on your behalf or documentation that Romney supporters are anti-information.

I can see that you simply don't comprehend the concept of limiting statements, so I'll just give up at this point.

[ptwonline]

No, I asked for facts of a generalization that you stated where Romney voters, a statement that could only be taken as a generalization of all Romney supporters, are low information and anti-information. You provided something that neither backed up that statement of rescinded such a generalization. All this requires is qualifying statements on your behalf or documentation that Romney supporters are anti-information.

I can see that you simply don't comprehend the concept of limiting statements, so I'll just give up at this point.

And apparently you don't read enough of the thread, because I did qualify it in my original post (not to your satisfaction) and then subsequently a coupld of posts down.

I would still like to hear your explanation of the Birther claims--primarily amongst conservatives who are again primarily Romney supporters--that somehow shows that they aren't actually anti-information despite apparently denying the information that was provided to them that should be pretty overwhelmingly convincing.

[Dakia]

I would still like to hear your explanation of the Birther claims--primarily amongst conservatives who are again primarily Romney supporters--that somehow shows that they aren't actually anti-information despite apparently denying the information that was provided to them that should be pretty overwhelmingly convincing.

My explanation? Why should I provide one? It isn't my viewpoint. I'm not going to defend something that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[ptwonline]

My explanation? Why should I provide one? It isn't my viewpoint. I'm not going to defend something that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Right, it doesn't make sense...unless the people professing that belief are to some degree anti-information because they clearly have rejected the info that should have changed their minds. Right?

[Dakia]

Right, it doesn't make sense...unless the people professing that belief are to some degree anti-information because they clearly have rejected the info that should have changed their minds. Right?

Correct. A portion of Romney supporters, a likely even some Obama supporters, rejected that information.

[Bobdoletoo]

Reasonable explanation -- Obama administration did some gun jumping without full information to try to make a statement about what occurred. Given the surge of unrest in the area it wasn't an unreasonable hypothesis given all the chaos.

Or, to put it in other words...they made a mistake.

A mistake with what consequences exactly? They got more information, corrected their statement, and proceeded from there.

Both sides seized on this for political gain, and more damage was probably done with the accusations being flung about from both sides rather than how the state department handled it in the first place!

You say the jumped the gun? The state department said today that they knew IMMEDIATELY that it was a terrorist attack. 5 days later on every weekend show, the us ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, stated it was a protest over a youtube video getting out of control. She is a member of the state department. So either she is incredibly inept at her job and the state department misleads her to mislead the United States people...or she's lying. And you call this just a mistake.

[FusedMass]

Mitt Romney Criticizes Obama For Proposing Money To Hire Teachers

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1955447.html

Hire more teachers? oh noes. Just send them to private school. Nothing we need from public education schools.

[Lenonis]

You say the jumped the gun? The state department said today that they knew IMMEDIATELY that it was a terrorist attack. 5 days later on every weekend show, the us ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, stated it was a protest over a youtube video getting out of control. She is a member of the state department. So either she is incredibly inept at her job and the state department misleads her to mislead the United States people...or she's lying. And you call this just a mistake.

Sounds like a mistake to me since I certainly wouldn't take the leap of "someone knew that the state department knew what happened and would eventually tell the public but still decided to go lie her ass off everywhere." Cause...y'know...that whole logic thing.

So maybe she was inept. Maybe wires got crossed internally in the state department about what happened where at which embassy.

Who knows? I certainly don't pretend to be omniscient about what happened and it seems reasonable that mistakes were made.

Mistakes which did....what exactly? Other than create a ton of political noise?

[smelltheglove]

Sounds like a mistake to me since I certainly wouldn't take the leap of "someone knew that the state department knew what happened and would eventually tell the public but still decided to go lie her ass off everywhere." Cause...y'know...that whole logic thing.

So maybe she was inept. Maybe wires got crossed internally in the state department about what happened where at which embassy.

Who knows? I certainly don't pretend to be omniscient about what happened and it seems reasonable that mistakes were made.

Mistakes which did....what exactly? Other than create a ton of political noise?

i hope you arent expecting an actual discussion from him

[Dupree]

One thing i would like to clarify, as a more centerist/moderate

The youtube video debate... about the consolate attacks.

There WAS uprage at the youtube video, over all the attacked consulates all 19 I believe, and even other countries got it.

The one that wasn't soley that was the Libya one, so I understand the adminstration stating it was a youtube video, because thats what started it everywhere else including Cairo

[Naxere]

I like reading Paglia even if I disagree with her on some things, but I found this interview particularly interesting:




http://www.salon.com/2012/10/10/cami...tering_images/

What in the world has happened to the Democratic Party? Its passivity towards this awful takeover of our lives by a know-it-all government, as shown by the way Obama has governed by constantly going around Congress — appointing czars and one new layer of bureaucracy after another. And hardly a peep of protest from liberals. It’s like the movie of H.G. Wells’ “The Time Machine” — Democrats have turned into the Eloi; they’re like sheep. They hear a signal, and it’s like pre-programmed spin in their heads — they just trot like sheep in one direction. I am voting Green in protest against the systemic corruption of my party.

[Wells]

Got to "czars"

Stopped reading.

[Felya]

One thing i would like to clarify, as a more centerist/moderate

The youtube video debate... about the consolate attacks.

There WAS uprage at the youtube video, over all the attacked consulates all 19 I believe, and even other countries got it.

The one that wasn't soley that was the Libya one, so I understand the adminstration stating it was a youtube video, because thats what started it everywhere else including Cairo

Yep, the administration's fault was ignorance. They blamed what seemed to be a fair judgment of what was happening. The protest against the video was used as a distraction and it worked. The administration jumped the gun and than for some ungodly reason refused to admit the mistake, thus reinforcing the ignorance.

Thankfully, we have not been directly threatening the region with immediate retaliation, as Romney's web site suggests, so were not forced to either back up our threats or cower.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 03:42 AM ----------

You say the jumped the gun? The state department said today that they knew IMMEDIATELY that it was a terrorist attack. 5 days later on every weekend show, the us ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, stated it was a protest over a youtube video getting out of control. She is a member of the state department. So either she is incredibly inept at her job and the state department misleads her to mislead the United States people...or she's lying. And you call this just a mistake.

The protest was used as a cover. The mistake that happened, was the whole point of using a cover.

Read Romney's site and tell me what his reaction would be:
http://www.mittromney.com/issues/middle-east

[Spectral]

I like reading Paglia even if I disagree with her on some things, but I found this interview particularly interesting:]

What in the world is she talking about? As near as I can tell, this "takeover of our lives" is occurring entirely in her head. I know it's trite to mention at this point, but I think the side campaigning on stripping reproductive freedoms and banning gay marriage is the side that I'm concerned about trying to take over people's lives.

[Puremallace]

Mitt Romney Criticizes Obama For Proposing Money To Hire Teachers

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1955447.html

Hire more teachers? oh noes. Just send them to private school. Nothing we need from public education schools.

The gift that keeps on giving