I'll guard you. Let them come through ME first! - Guardian discussion thread.

[Scala]

So guys, anyone have a nice pve ranged build, cause I'm suck in meele attack...

[Ynna]

So guys, anyone have a nice pve ranged build, cause I suck at melee attacks...

Let me start by saying that Guardians don't actually do so well at ranged and that you're missing a huge part of the experience by not going melee (at least in part melee).
I also haven't played Guardian as a ranged profession, so everything I post here is purely theoretical.

First, you'll probably have Scepter+Focus and Staff as weapons, as those are the only ranged weapons the Guardian has.

This build is focused on hanging back with the ranged and supporting your team. It won't deal a lot of damage, but your team should do more, live longer and basically have an easier time.

This build is focused more on keeping the enemy away and dealing damage. The Staff doesn't do much here, except play nice with the minor traits from Zeal. Maybe you could opt for a Hammer here instead, to improve your control and help keep people away from you.

It's possible these builds aren't very good, since I haven't actually played them.

[DrakeWurrum]

If you suck at being melee, practice makes perfect. There is not a single profession where I would recommend always avoiding melee (even the Scholars, which each seem to only have one true melee weapon).

The trick is to stay mobile, and to pay extra attention to the movements/animations of your enemy, so you can know when and how to avoid/prevent damage.

[Scala]

Ok guys, thanks a lot for the ideas/suggestions. Practice, practice and more practice.

[Ynna]

If you happen to play tomorrow and you test out some ranged builds, would you mind telling us how it went? I'd do it myself, but my girlfriend is coming over tomorrow (every damn beta event *grumble grumble*).

[Deleted]

Let me start by saying that Guardians don't actually do so well at ranged and that you're missing a huge part of the experience by not going melee (at least in part melee).
I also haven't played Guardian as a ranged profession, so everything I post here is purely theoretical.

First, you'll probably have Scepter+Focus and Staff as weapons, as those are the only ranged weapons the Guardian has.
.

And torch. the activation on skill5 is now 1200 too.

I used a scepter and either torch or focus as a very effective way of taking out hard pve enemies that would mince me in melee. The amount of control you can get aswell as condition dmg and such make scepter a very viable ranged pve weapon. Shame it sucks so much in pvp due to incredibly slow projectile speed.

[Meledelion]

Judge's Intervention, instead of Retreat. That build gives three gap-closers, three immobilizes, and two defenses versus ranged projectiles (and two passive condition removals with every signet being another when traited). It's pretty much designed for dealing with ranged. Also, no defensive mechanics is widely exaggerated. A short-cooldown heal, two out of three Virtues and the shield, as well as enough damage to force people into the defensive.

And I'm not saying the Hammer isn't a viable option. It certainly is. It's just a different weapon, with a different focus. The Hammer is more static and proactive control, where the Sword/Shield (because that's what the discussion is about, right) gives a more reactive playstyle. No-one is saying that the Greatsword/Sword+Shield combo is looking to be better than the Greatsword/Hammer build. They're both different, viable builds, doing different things (albeit with some overlap).

Well the heal and virtues are things you always get so I don't count them in.
And I mainly was talking about s+sh/gs vs s+sh/hammer
for gs/s+sh I find the defense lacking so I prefer going with gs/m+sh
In my eyes/mind if you go gs/s+sh vs one of the other options I mentioned I feel you're always giving something up which you don't really need to (healing/defense/control/...)

I'm curious though, would you focus on burning people with your gs build?

[Ynna]

I'm curious though, would you focus on burning people with your gs build?

I'll do anything if it means I don't have to take Zeal, so if I want to do damage, that means crit and burn.

And you are giving up things. That's true for every build. I'm giving up defense in favor of damage with that build. You're probably giving up damage in favor of control with a GS/Hammer build. And I never found the lack of defense made the build unplayable. You need to be more careful, but that's to be expected with an offensive build.

[Exedore]

The thing is you're not getting any tools [with greatsword/sword] to deal with situations, if you for instance come across a pesky ranger you'll have a very hard time ever catching up to him with s/gs. However if you equip a hammer, or scepter or mace instead of either the gs/s you'll get a tool to stick with the ranger.

Far from it. Sword gives you a gap closer (as opposed to an immobilize that your examples give). Zealot's defense is also great against a ranged attacker because it can be used to both deal damage and prevent damage. Also keep in mind that in sPvP, you don't necessarily need to kill someone to claim a victory.

I think people just think s/gs is such a great idea because traiting around both of those weapons is very easy since they're both so damn similar (in almost every way). However, you're going to get your ass kicked if you decide to take the n00b way out of building a character.

Oh, this is just silly. Guardians are having great success in sPvP tournaments with greatsword/sword. *points to Super Squad vs. Team Paradigm*

[Scala]

If you happen to play tomorrow and you test out some ranged builds, would you mind telling us how it went? I'd do it myself, but my girlfriend is coming over tomorrow (every damn beta event *grumble grumble*).

I do not know if you're talking to me, but I would not be able to play tonight...

Guys, do some ranged tests for me.

[Deleted]

Not sure if anyone posted a list of changes that went live in the last beta build, but here they are.

WEAPONS

Scepter – The scepter now tops out at 1200 units with both Orb of Wrath and Smite. While the travel speed of the Orb is still fairly lethargic, it is a definite improvement.
Focus – Similar to the Scepter, the Focus also reaches up to 1200 units with Ray of Judgment! Being able to blind enemies or remove condition from allies at that range is very potent, and a welcome change.

Greatsword – While a minor change, it is worth mentioning that Whirling Wrath no longer roots you in place. You can move… sort of. It’s more like a very slight drift during the course of the channel time. While I would greatly prefer full movement speed similar to the Warrior’s Axe ability, Cyclone Axe, it’s at least a very slow, small step in the right direction.

Staff – Last, but certainly not least, the staff has had three significant ability changes.

1. Martyr is gone. It has been reborn as a utility skill, which we’ll cover in a moment.
2. Line of Warding has been moved to the #5 slot and the #4 slot is now home to the new Empower ability. Empower combines utility, healing and damage output, and really increases the effectiveness of the Staff as a whole by providing you and nearby allies with 6 stacks of Might and an AoE heal. The only downside is that you’re immobilized during the channel, and if you’re interrupted, you’ll only get partial stacks of Might and no heal. By channeling Empower before a pull, I was able to put those 6 stacks of Might to good use by swapping to the Greatsword and leaping into combat.
3. Symbol of Swiftness now provides an 8-second Swiftness boon, making it more effective than ever.

SKILLS

Tome of Courage and Tome of Wrath, both of which no longer root you in place unless you’re casting the non-spammable abilities. This makes them both much more useful!


TRAITS

There were several changes to our Traits in this build, centered entirely around our Virtues line.

Unscathed Contender was added as an Adept trait in the Virtues line. It increases your damage output by 10% anytime you are under the effects of Aegis.

Master of Consecrations was added as an Adept trait in the Virtues line. It gives your Consecration skills a 20% faster recharge time and makes them last 20% longer.

Retaliatiatory Subconscious was added as an Adept trait in the Virtues line, and spelling aside, it’s fairly potent. It gives the Guardian 3 seconds of Retaliation whenever they’re Dazed, Stunned, Knocked Down, Knocked Back or Feared.

Indomitable Courage was added as a Master trait in the Virtues line. Virtue of Courage’s passive effect triggers every 30 seconds, and its active ability also grants you 3 seconds of Stability.

Absolute Resolution was added as a Master trait in the Virtues line. It makes Virtue of Resolve’s passive effect stronger, and activating Virtue of Resolve will remove three conditions.

Permeating Wrath was added as as a Grandmaster trait in the Virtues line. Your passive Virtue of Justice no longer burns a single enemy, but instead creates a point-blank, area of effect flame burst at your location.

[Meledelion]

Far from it. Sword gives you a gap closer (as opposed to an immobilize that your examples give). Zealot's defense is also great against a ranged attacker because it can be used to both deal damage and prevent damage. Also keep in mind that in sPvP, you don't necessarily need to kill someone to claim a victory.

Can you please be a bit clearer are you focusing on my s+sg/gs variation (hammer instead of gs) or gs/m+sh (instead of s+sh) since your point regarding zealots defense is absolutely correct, I know it's mechanic. But if a ranger has 3skills from one weaponset it means that the guardian will be forced to change weapons (when it quite possibly isn't ideal).

I also agree with your point that you don't need to kill to 'win' which is again why I recon a more defensive build is better than gs/s+sh.
I haven't expanded on this before but here we go. If you want to stay close to the ranged and you use the build linked before with the signets etc, you're giving up loads of utility which might be useful for your team (granted a warrior give close to the same utility) for only one reason, to be able to hit your target. Gap closers are great but you need something to stay on your target aswell (which is why the hammer is so frigin awesome immobilise+dome they can't exit)like for instance swiftness or criple...

P.S. what are the youtube channels of ss and paradigm? (and what's their history since they seem to be two teams everyone's looking at to do well)

[Exedore]

Can you please be a bit clearer are you focusing on my s+sg/gs variation (hammer instead of gs) or gs/m+sh (instead of s+sh) since your point regarding zealots defense is absolutely correct, I know it's mechanic. But if a ranger has 3skills from one weaponset it means that the guardian will be forced to change weapons (when it quite possibly isn't ideal).

I was talking about sword+greatsword. I linked the build I was using BWE3 earlier in the thread, but it was basically set up to stop my opponent long enough to have them stuck in a full whirling wrath multiple times. Those few seconds a couple times are all I needed. I didn't need to constantly be glued to my opponent.

P.S. what are the youtube channels of ss and paradigm? (and what's their history since they seem to be two teams everyone's looking at to do well)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsvIw1l4ONg
You can also find the individual PoV's through links. Team Paradigm was pretty big in BWE2 and still are. See http://www.teamparadigm.net/

[Deleted]

Not sure if anyone posted a list of changes that went live in the last beta build, but here they are.

WEAPONS

Scepter – The scepter now tops out at 1200 units with both Orb of Wrath and Smite. While the travel speed of the Orb is still fairly lethargic, it is a definite improvement.
Focus – Similar to the Scepter, the Focus also reaches up to 1200 units with Ray of Judgment! Being able to blind enemies or remove condition from allies at that range is very potent, and a welcome change.

Greatsword – While a minor change, it is worth mentioning that Whirling Wrath no longer roots you in place. You can move… sort of. It’s more like a very slight drift during the course of the channel time. While I would greatly prefer full movement speed similar to the Warrior’s Axe ability, Cyclone Axe, it’s at least a very slow, small step in the right direction.

Staff – Last, but certainly not least, the staff has had three significant ability changes.

1. Martyr is gone. It has been reborn as a utility skill, which we’ll cover in a moment.
2. Line of Warding has been moved to the #5 slot and the #4 slot is now home to the new Empower ability. Empower combines utility, healing and damage output, and really increases the effectiveness of the Staff as a whole by providing you and nearby allies with 6 stacks of Might and an AoE heal. The only downside is that you’re immobilized during the channel, and if you’re interrupted, you’ll only get partial stacks of Might and no heal. By channeling Empower before a pull, I was able to put those 6 stacks of Might to good use by swapping to the Greatsword and leaping into combat.
3. Symbol of Swiftness now provides an 8-second Swiftness boon, making it more effective than ever.

.

Also the part 2 activation on the "5" skill for torch is 1200, though I'm not sure if that was already in before BWE3 or not.

[Ynna]

I haven't expanded on this before but here we go. If you want to stay close to the ranged and you use the build linked before with the signets etc, you're giving up loads of utility which might be useful for your team (granted a warrior give close to the same utility) for only one reason, to be able to hit your target. Gap closers are great but you need something to stay on your target as well (which is why the hammer is so frigin awesome immobilize+dome they can't exit)like for instance swiftness or cripple...

How are control elements not utility? What makes a knock-down worse than granting Swiftness?
And I never had any problems staying on my target with the build I posted.

Why are you so hell-bent on "proving" that Hammer/Greatsword is the superior option?

[DrakeWurrum]

He's convinced that tool overlap is something to avoid.

[Meledelion]

What drake said.

and since you went there:
Why are you so hell-bent on "proving" that Hammer/Greatsword is not the superior option?
edit: (I'm not calling you out, I mean to say that this is a silly question which results in a yes no debate)

[DrakeWurrum]

Why are you so hell-bent on "proving" that Hammer/Greatsword is not the superior option?

Because tool overlap is not something to avoid, and not something that destroys the importance of your weapon selection. It's not so redundant when you realize these skills have cooldowns.

You keep coming up with "Well what about the Ranger with so many ways to escape from melee?"

Why is it okay for that Ranger to have skill overlap, but not you?

[Meledelion]

Because tool overlap is not something to avoid, and not something that destroys the importance of your weapon selection. It's not so redundant when you realize these skills have cooldowns.

You keep coming up with "Well what about the Ranger with so many ways to escape from melee?"

Why is it okay for that Ranger to have skill overlap, but not you?

Due to the ranger not sacrificing a weaponset for it. At most you need one utility skill + one weaponset to get away from a guardian (meaning you still have 2utility skills) whilst the guardian needs to grab 2utility skills to get away with gs/s+sh, only to deal damage.
Whilst if you change one of both weaponsets to for instance a hammer it's easier to stay in range (as you have said yourself).

Also it's not just the ranger, thief, warrior, ele and mes all have good ways of staying out of range.

Anyways we can keep going and going on this topic so let's agree to disagree. You know that I find overlapping tools a waste and I know you don't.

[DrakeWurrum]

Who said you're "sacrificing" a weaponset for it on the Guardian either? You're dwindling down the Sword/Shield combo to specifically the #2 ability now? Apparently #3 through 5, despite not having parallels on the Greatsword at all, is not part of Sword/Shield?

By your logic, you shouldn't go Greatsword/Hammer either, because Greatsword #5's Pull ability is too similar to the Hammer's ranged immobilize.
Oh, and you shouldn't go Greatsword/Mace+Shield either, since both put down Light combo fields.

The point in going Greatsword/Sword+Shield is so you gain something without giving up mobility. To instead go Hammer/Sword+Shield or whatever build you were talking about, you give up mobility for to gain yet more somewhere else. If you want to maintain mobility at all times, and truly be impossible to pin down/avoid, Greatsword/Sword+X is the best way to go.