SimCity 5 - Launch Discussion

[Deleted]

That's how most DRMs work, and they aren't that effective. It's quite "easy" to just remove the code for authentication or just emulate the server for authentication and saving. That's why game producers (blizzard with diablo and EA with simcity) try to move part of the gameplay to online servers. This way not only you have to crack the game but you also have to recreate functionality handled by server. That's why to this day you don't have working cracked Diablo 3.

Thats why to this day I dont have a copy of D3 at all.The service was crap and I returned it for a refund. Its why I refuse to even consider SCV. and it turns out that was the right decision.

Incidentally, there are reportedly cracked versions of SCV runnign already....cant verify it, but if its true,that shows its not necessary.
Also that BS about D3 requiring the connection was just a lie as the console version does not.

[Vespian]

Thats why to this day I dont have a copy of D3 at all.The service was crap and I returned it for a refund. Its why I refuse to even consider SCV. and it turns out that was the right decision.

Incidentally, there are reportedly cracked versions of SCV runnign already....cant verify it, but if its true,that shows its not necessary.
Also that BS about D3 requiring the connection was just a lie as the console version does not.

Look, it's simple. I make two clients. I give them the same sticker. They function differently. Not the same game, technically speaking. Not that it's not possible EVERYTHING is possible. But the current PC Diablo 3 client cannot be played locally, offline. Not even a cracked version.

[Wilian]

Couple of interesting observation posts regarding Sim City AI and simulations and population in general.

http://answers.ea.com/t5/Miscellaneo...737060#U737060[

The problem is that, just as power can sometimes take a ridiculously long time to fill the entire map (because the "power agents" just randomly move about with no sense) traffic and workers can do the same thing. Workers leave their homes as "people agents." These agents go to the nearest open job, not caring at all where they worked yesterday. They fill the job, and the next worker goes to the next building and fills that job, and so it goes until all the jobs are "filled." So, when you have all your "worker" sims leaving their houses for work in the morning, they all cluster together like some kind of "tourist pack" until they have all been sucked into "jobs." They don't seem to care if the job is Commercial or Industrial, only that it's a job.



"Scholars" are handled exactly the same way. As are school busses and mass-transit agents. This is why you see the "trains" of busses roaming through your city, and why entire sections of town may never see a school bus, despite having plenty of stops... Once all the busses are full, they return to school and stay there until school is done for the day.

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/9359265.page

First block : 186/124/62 total pop/workers/shopper (a 2/3 to 1/3 split of pop between workers and shoppers)
Second block : 372/248/124 - Exactly double, so far so good
Third block : 630/372/186 - Same increase in worker and shoppers but a bigger increase in total pop
Fourth block :1232/496/64 Again same increase in effective pop but displayed pop has virtually doubled
By sixth block displayed pop was over 2600 (14 times one block) but actual workers/shoppers was exactly 6 times higher.
I also checked tax income and utilities and these increase in equal steps for each block too, so the phantom pop in the display seems to have no effect on gameplay at all.

This explains why a 100k pop city seems to have only 10% workforce - its actually a 15k pop city with a huge amount of phantom pop added to the count.

If this all is true, it would A: explain tons of derp I have seen in related SimCity videos, such as the infamous:



..and B:

[Vespian]

Couple of interesting observation posts regarding Sim City AI and simulations and population in general.


..and B:

This sounds so epicly..like fail oO

[Edge-]

That's a release feature of an entirely different client, that for once, isn't a bloody port. So yeah, I can't say I'm surprised. But you too, lack a portion of technical expertise. Diablo 3 PC singleplayer would require creating a new client or at least add an entire module to the current client to sustain offline play. I agree with you that they intentionally didn't program one with the launch of D3, but their excuse back then (LAN play allows easier access to hacks) made sense back then. It is easier to read into client/server connections when the server side is also locally hosted. The fact that hackers still got access makes you wonder what the gain was, but alas, we can't argue the pros and cons of that. And the secondary issue, the fact that the online client was delayed for a year, leaving no resources to even consider an offline client.

So yes you are right and no you are wrong.

Every argument you just made here can, and has been applied to SimCity in addition to their, "It's too complex" argument. Grats.

[Vespian]

Every argument you just made here can, and has been applied to SimCity in addition to their, "It's too complex" argument. Grats.

No, because (and that's what I've been saying all the time) the current Sim City client is an offline client. Just because you do not understand the technical aspects doesn't mean you have to treat it like it's the same. The entire Sim City client is stored locally. In D3, monsters are spawned by the server. Your client is then informed what, where, how, when, with what mods by the server. The same goes for items and what they get identified into. In Sim City, EVERYTHING is being handled locally, such as city growth, pathing, jobseeking, you name it. There's only a few gimmicks such as leaderboards and occasional save-states that require the game to connect to the server to store its data. D3, has no such thing. If you disconnect in D3, your rollback, if any, would be a few seconds at most. In Sim City, your rollback can be as much as 4 hours (reported by sources in this thread).

[Edge-]

No, because (and that's what I've been saying all the time) the current client is an offline client. Just because you do not understand the technical aspects doesn't mean you have to treat it like it's the same. The entire Sim City client is stored locally. In D3, monsters are spawned by the server. Your client is then informed what, where, how, when, with what mods by the server. The same goes for items and what they get identified into. In Sim City, EVERYTHING is being handled locally, such as city growth, pathing, jobseeking, you name it. There's only a few gimmicks such as leaderboards and occasional save-states that require the game to connect to the server to store its data. D3, has no such thing. If you disconnect in D3, your rollback, if any, would be a few seconds at most.

You're arguing possibility vs design intent now.

Design intent: D3 servers handle everything so you can't play offline. SimCity servers handle communication between all regions and continue simulating while regions aren't actively played.

Possibility: D3 has offline single player mode where you computer handles everything a la D1/2. SimCity has an offline mode where you can play with a limited number of cities within a region.

I don't give a flying fuck about what is technically possible with the current versions of either client. The bottom line is it's unnecessary DRM for both games, and both games are designed so that they are completely unable to be played without a constant connection to their owners servers.

The bottom line is we already know D3 offline play is 100% possible, Blizzard have openly stated it and console gamers are getting it. PC gamers are apparently all dirty pirates who can't be trusted and should be punished so we got the always on DRM version.

[Vespian]

You're arguing possibility vs design intent now.

Design intent: D3 servers handle everything so you can't play offline. SimCity servers handle communication between all regions and continue simulating while regions aren't actively played.

Possibility: D3 has offline single player mode where you computer handles everything a la D1/2. SimCity has an offline mode where you can play with a limited number of cities within a region.

I don't give a flying fuck about what is technically possible with the current versions of either client. The bottom line is it's unnecessary DRM for both games, and both games are designed so that they are completely unable to be played without a constant connection to their owners servers.

The bottom line is we already know D3 offline play is 100% possible, Blizzard have openly stated it and console gamers are getting it. PC gamers are apparently all dirty pirates who can't be trusted and should be punished so we got the always on DRM version.

Off course it's possible. They decided against it using sensible arguments. Now people use those same arguments to support the same choice for Sim City. Which would have been OK, if the goddamn client wouldn't actually ALREADY BE an offline client So they are lying to the public, hardcore. THAT is the issue with EA/Maxis and Sim City.

That's the difference. Blizzard came clean, said to the fans, Hello fans, we're making this online only. Eat shit and die if you disagree. Uproar was had, Blizzard gave finger, Fans bought the game nonetheless and Diablo III was indeed an actual online only game. Technically they weren't cheating you.

EA thought they could pull the same thing with Sim City, which in its core is a single player game, contrary to D3, but additionally it's a sack of lies. BAD.

You know what is also possible? NASA giving you an internet web browser button that is capable of launching their space missions for them. Will they do it?? Hell fucking no..

P.S. Wish I could go on, but I'm going to bed now ^^ Gotta get up early tomorow.

P.P.S: So what I'm trying to add, in short, is that reverting Sim City to a single player client would take a few weeks, tops, of programming. Maybe even just a day. In the case of the current D3 client, you're looking at a few months.

[rhorle]

Give it up. I don't know what you are saying. No one knows what you are saying. You don't know what you are saying.

Region play and the simulations regarding it are handled by the server. That is what I am saying. I don't know why you have such a hard to understanding that, and I know exactly what I've been saying this entire time because I've been saying the same thing.

[Vespian]

Region play and the simulations regarding it are handled by the server. That is what I am saying. I don't know why you have such a hard to understanding that, and I know exactly what I've been saying this entire time because I've been saying the same thing.

We know you have, but region play is irrelevant. If someone can create a region and build a city without anyone else in that region, they can also very quickly make a single player client whithout region play, or computer simulated region play (which for the most part is alrdy being done). And they could stop rigging all the variables to make not playing together have less of an impact on your economy.

Last time I have responded to you. Unless you suddenly have a lightbulb moment.

“The servers are not handling any of the computation done to simulate the city you are playing. They are still acting as servers, doing some amount of computation to route messages of various types between both players and cities. As well, they’re doing cloud storage of save games, interfacing with Origin, and all of that. But for the game itself? No, they’re not doing anything. I have no idea why they’re claiming otherwise. It’s possible that Bradshaw misunderstood or was misinformed, but otherwise I’m clueless.”

Rock Paper Shotgun, I currently still trust them.

[rhorle]

We know you have, but region play is irrelevant. If someone can create a region and build a city without anyone else in that region, they can also very quickly make a single player client whithout region play, or computer simulated region play (which for the most part is alrdy being done). And they could stop rigging all the variables to make not playing together have less of an impact on your economy.

Right so you want them to design and balance an entirely different game. Because that is what all you've asked for will take rather then "very quickly". Region play is deeply connected to everything you do. The whole idea of the game is that even when solo you have multiple cities in your region all acting together with synergy. In order to do most of the advanced concepts of Sim City you need a region.

Not every city map within a region is equal. Some have low resources but high wind and water. Others have high ore but its in the middle of the best terrain. Some requires you to work the mineral extraction into the heart of your city. Some specializations like tourism and gambling work the best when you have a region of people to draw from for tourists and workers.

Region play is not irrelevant. It is 50% of the game and the game's mechanics. Even a person who plays solo is supposed to still make use of the Region and not play one and only one city. The variables are not rigged to force you to play together. The Variables are rigged to force you to play a region rather then one city. And that is the entire point of the game that it isn't just one city but a simulation of a Region. That would be true even if they designed it as a single player game because Region play is a core aspect of the game.

You may trust RPS but their source doesn't even know that the server is currently handling region simulation. They are doing something for the game itself which can be seen when you turn your internet connection off and lose features of the game. You would know this if you actually played the game and you would know that their source isn't telling the complete picture about what the server actually is doing. But something that proves you wrong is irrelevant. Right okay, great discussion.

[Vespian]

Right so you want them to design and balance an entirely different game. Because that is what all you've asked for will take rather then "very quickly". Region play is deeply connected to everything you do. The whole idea of the game is that even when solo you have multiple cities in your region all acting together with synergy. In order to do most of the advanced concepts of Sim City you need a region.



You may trust RPS but their source doesn't even know that the server is currently handling region simulation. They are doing something for the game itself which can be seen when you turn your internet connection off and lose features of the game. You would know this if you actually played the game and you would know that their source isn't telling the complete picture about what the server actually is doing. But something that proves you wrong is irrelevant. Right okay, great discussion.

The underlined line, is actually exactly what we're talking about. The source knows exactly what he's talking about. As I said, those caculation, all being done on your own PC. The only link is a single line of code that tells you that you need to be online because OH SHIT HE'S NOT ONLINE.

And again, trust me, couple days work to "reprogram the client". Diablo 3, different cake.

[rhorle]

The underlined line, is actually exactly what we're talking about. The source knows exactly what he's talking about. As I said, those caculation, all being done on your own PC. The only link is a single line of code that tells you that you need to be online because OH SHIT HE'S NOT ONLINE.

What part of "Regional features don't work when not connected to the internet" don't you understand? Only your city is simulated when offline and nothing else. You can't earn income by sending police to another city because there is nothing being simulated to tell your police where to go and who to arrest. You can't send gifts to another city (well you can but they never get it) because that city isn't being simulated by your computer.

The only link is not a single line of code checking to see if you are online or not otherwise every Regional feature would still be simulated. But its not. The server simulates Regional simulations. Also you have the source making a statement like " "It wouldn't take very much engineering to give you a limited single-player game without all the nifty region stuff." (http://www.joystiq.com/2013/03/12/ru...han-ea-claims/)

That implies that the game doesn't do everything client side and that it requires the server for more then "online check and origin/social features". Otherwise the game wouldn't be limited.

[kivipää]

We know you have, but region play is irrelevant.

This line right here tells us it's you who has no idea what he's talking about. Region play is a large and an quite important part of sim city. Workers commute to jobs in other cities, in times of need cities can sell/share any services from sewage and garbage trucks to power. City hall departments unlock their buildings for all the cities in the region, and large and expensive building projects like the university unlock their projects for the entire region, as well. Great projects require large amounts of resources, usually from multiple specializations that are hard or impossible to cram into a single city. Even tourism rates are affected by your connections and cities in the region.
A city without acces to other cities in the region will never achieve the pinnacle of greatness possible, and will always stay crippled in multiple ways.

[Ravenblade]

Actually nobody knows how region play is handled on server side whether they use micro- or macro-level computations - my bets are on the latter since it is known that cities not played are frozen in time and since it would require some massive computation power if they had to handle hundreds of thousands of cities in real time. Since they scaled down the cities the amount of computations done per square is smaller. Therefore there's really no telling whether your computer could or could not handle all these cities if your computer had to handle them. Considering CPUs are much more powerful than those available at the time of Simcity 4 I am not quite convinced that our computers are too weak to handle it. In my opinion it's just a well-construed measure to implement social multiplayer interactivity into a game which was traditionally singleplayer because somehow these days it is believed that games without multiplayer are not games anymore.

[Vespian]

This line right here tells us it's you who has no idea what he's talking about. Region play is a large and an quite important part of sim city. .

Functional =/ technical. Get out.

The fact that all major gaming sites and all their editors and everyone with a remote sense of the technical aspects has been placing doubts with the whole online-required thing should place enough doubts in all of you to not just buy what EA/Maxis sells you. The fact that Rock Paper Shotgun came with a source that [they have verified to be real], that specifically says that nothing that your client NEEDS, technically speaking, to run the game is being dealt with on the server, means that all online-required features are only in place to make it look as if the game relies on that online interaction. It does not!

So once more; currently, functionally speaking, the game forces you to connect occasionally or lose progress otherwise. Technically, it's just an underwater check to make sure you are online or save some data. That's all.

Now I understand when you don't believe random guy on forum nr 1034763 [me], but when there's global questioning and some very reliable sources (Kotaku etc) that know games and technology that publicly declare that the online only thing is a hoax, you should really step out of the EA/Maxis fanboi crowd an at least take a neutral stance, with some sceptism towards both cases, possibly even realize you're being framed. Even Diablo III only suffered from an outburst of anger over the DRM. They were never questioned about the technological aspects, because their shit runs on the server. Sim City does not run on a server. that is the true meaning of a DRM. Being forced to be online for the sake of being online.

P.S. Obviously there would be limitations. To answer the question how much exactly depends on how it's programmed and that can only be known by true insiders. What matters is the fact that your PC can run a couple hundred cities in pure simulation mode, as long as it's not graphically present. And if what's being said about the AI of the agents in Sim City is true, then the only reason it couldn't, is because they fucked up programmatically.

More info on how much they lied to you?
http://tweakers.net/video/7099/eerst...t-simcity.html

From 4:53 for the English crowd.

[rol3x]

A decision was made that Sim city would have mandatory online connectivity to play the game when It didn't need to, all the features of the game would work perfectly offline. Some people are ok with that others aren't. I don't like this kind of thing in general but I especially despise it in certain genres.
2 years ago if someone told me I wouldn't be able to play the new sim city offline I wouldn't believe it but here we are. A sad day =(

[kivipää]

Functional =/ technical. Get out.

The fact that all major gaming sites and all their editors and everyone with a remote sense of the technical aspects has been placing doubts with the whole online-required thing should place enough doubts in all of you to not just buy what EA/Maxis sells you. The fact that Rock Paper Shotgun came with a source that [they have verified to be real], that specifically says that nothing that your client NEEDS, technically speaking, to run the game is being dealt with on the server, means that all online-required features are only in place to make it look as if the game relies on that online interaction. It does not!

So once more; currently, functionally speaking, the game forces you to connect occasionally or lose progress otherwise. Technically, it's just an underwater check to make sure you are online or save some data. That's all.

Now I understand when you don't believe random guy on forum nr 1034763 [me], but when there's global questioning and some very reliable sources (Kotaku etc) that know games and technology that publicly declare that the online only thing is a hoax, you should really step out of the EA/Maxis fanboi crowd an at least take a neutral stance, with some sceptism towards both cases, possibly even realize you're being framed. Even Diablo III only suffered from an outburst of anger over the DRM. They were never questioned about the technological aspects, because their shit runs on the server. Sim City does not run on a server. that is the true meaning of a DRM. Being forced to be online for the sake of being online.

First of all, EA has been on my blacklist for far longer than anyone even knew sim city 5 is coming, so you can stuff your arrogant fanboi comments right back down your throat.
Now that that's out of the way; you are not online = regional features do not work. What is so hard to understand in such an elementary concept? You very quote from RPS says
"They are still acting as servers, doing some amount of computation to route messages of various types between both players and cities."
Which is contrary to your point entirely. Your cities don't communicate, regional features do not work. And since city communication is done via servers, region play does not function without servers.
Your own quotes are disproving your point which was very irrelevant to begin with. Minor technical details are utterly irrelevant in the face of end result for the consumer, and EA are lying scumbags in saying they can't change things now regardless of what the said details are. You are arguing semantics that end up in the exact same conclusions.

[Vespian]

First of all, EA has been on my blacklist for far longer than anyone even knew sim city 5 is coming, so you can stuff your arrogant fanboi comments right back down your throat.
Now that that's out of the way; you are not online = regional features do not work. What is so hard to understand in such an elementary concept? You very quote from RPS says
"They are still acting as servers, doing some amount of computation to route messages of various types between both players and cities."
Which is contrary to your point entirely. Your cities don't communicate, regional features do not work. And since city communication is done via servers, region play does not function without servers.
Your own quotes are disproving your point which was very irrelevant to begin with. Minor technical details are utterly irrelevant in the face of end result for the consumer, and EA are lying scumbags in saying they can't change things now regardless of what the said details are. You are arguing semantics that end up in the exact same conclusions.

Uhuh, but if you only need a server for communications between -online- regions or cities or watever else they communicate with and all other data is being processed locally then how hard do you think it would be to just replace the servername with localhost? (in a very simplified scenario). Because ultimately, that's what it's about. My point is not that you won't lose part of the functionality, my point is that all that extra functionality really could have been and still can be brought offline, without requiring months of programming.

It's very simple: Can you continue playing without an internet connection? Answer: Yes. How long? Posts in this thread mention several hours, source from Kotaku; 20 minutes. That's a loooong time for an online-required game, especially when you consider that a real online only game requires only a few seconds before you get disconnected. So we're talking about a couple thousand percent increase. How much of your city interaction with outside places still continues? I truly don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if city/region statistics are cached locally and then used to calculate all that so called online-city interaction, updating only at specific intervalls.

There is no need to toss an arrogant at me, since I never called you specifically a fanboi. I was addressing the general crowd and mainly mr. Rhorle.

Edit: I would like someone to answer the question in bold for me. Someone other than mr.Rhorle.

[rhorle]

The fact that Rock Paper Shotgun came with a source that [they have verified to be real], that specifically says that nothing that your client NEEDS, technically speaking, to run the game is being dealt with on the server, means that all online-required features are only in place to make it look as if the game relies on that online interaction. It does not!

From RPS

“It wouldn’t take very much engineering to give you a limited single-player game without all the nifty region stuff.”

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013...y/#more-145460

If the server did not handle computation then it would be easy to offer full game play. The source specifically calls the game play limited without Regional play. The problem is that limited is not a full game, which means that none of the "nifty", as the source calls it, features of Region play would be functional. If half of the game does not function without a server why do you still insist that the server is not needed at all?

All agents can simulated by glass box can be graphically present. If your city has 300k population and 100k tourists visiting every day then Glass box visually references every one of those sims. You will see them displayed on the screen, they will play sounds for the activities, they will spawn more agents based on their moods, spending, or other status effects.


I highly doubt a PC could simulate hundreds of cities at the same time and not suffer any performance loss. That would be over a million agents all having to be calculated every second and each simulation of a single agent can effect thousands of other agents. It certainly wouldn't leave the minimum system requirements at 2.0 core2duo and 2gb of ram.