[Megathread] DotA 2

[Drunkenvalley]

I think you're exaggerating. I'd say you're going to choose between BKB or blink after your mek. If nothing else, blink gives you a lot more mobility outside of your attempts to get a 5man black hole.

[Lysah]

Yeah I think you undervalue blink a lot Praise. Even if you don't use it to start fights, it makes you farm quicker, you can rotate quicker, you can attack from angles the enemy does not expect, and you can escape ganks easily. Remember blink first offlane Sniper? None of these things are *necessary* on a jungle Enigma, but it's still an absurdly powerful item and can definitely have a lot of use if the enemy is playing aggressively. Obviously if the enemy is just hiding behind their towers and you are just AFK farming the jungle for 20 minutes it won't see a lot of use, but games are rarely like that now. I really don't think blink dagger first on any hero in the game is ever a completely bad idea, the item is just that strong.

[Deleted]

I think I possibly overvalue Mek in a pub setting moreso than I undervalue Blink. I tend to only really play in 5-stacks that are very good at using Mek for timing pushes, and to me not getting Arcanes and Mek first on Enigma is unthinkably stupid. It's literally why you pick the hero in the first place.

Now, there are games where you can get away with Blink before BKB, but in my experience they're pretty rare when your opponents aren't dumbasses who will stack on top of each other and draft literally 0 counters to your hero. It's particularly difficult to get good Black Holes now that Aether Lens is a thing and even heroes with formerly very short-range stuns can stand far out of Black Hole range and instantly cancel your Black Hole.

It's just not a very good initiation spell until you have BKB + Blink unless you're initiating on a single, isolated hero. I much prefer to use it well into a fight after the initial wave of spells have gone off.

[Drunkenvalley]

Again Praise, we're not talking about Blink dagger for the sake of Black Hole...

[StrawberryZebra]

You don't pick Enigma for Black Hole - you pick him for the fact that he can jungle a Mek and Arcanes in roughly 10 minutes and take T1s on the back of Mek and Eidolons. It's simply too easy to cancel Black Hole for any remotely competent team to make Blink first the slightest bit useful.

I feel like Chen does all of this and better, especially since 6.86 buffed almost all of the useful pushing Auras. Chen's early ganks can also be absolutely devastating if he gets lucky with camp spawns. Lone Druid demolishes towers in the blink of an eye, Profit can quickly siege a lane with a small army of trees. Black Hole is all that makes Enigma stand out amongst other strong early pushers.

I think you're exaggerating. I'd say you're going to choose between BKB or blink after your mek. If nothing else, blink gives you a lot more mobility outside of your attempts to get a 5man black hole.

You're lucky to get anywhere close to landing a Black Hole without a Blink Dagger. Enigma is just too slow, too fragile and too predictable to get to where he needs to be without it most of the time. BKB is more on a case-by-case basis, sometimes you absolutely require one ASAP, other times it can wait. You do want both BKB and a Blink Dagger most games however. You don't always have to land a 5 man Black Hole to have landed a good Black Hole either. Its better to trap the right targets, and start a fight you can comfortably win, rather than wait around on the distant possiability that you can catch the entire team. Enigma's who are constantly waiting to land the perfect Black Hole when even a remotely decent one would do are one of my pet hates.

[JP1o]

So I've finally decided to give Dota a try, after a bunch of buddies trying to get me to play for a long time. Bare in mind I have zero moba experience.

Whats a good, handful of heroes to focus on? At the moment, I currently have about 10 hours played, and only been playing limited heroes + hard bot matches, mainly as Viper and Juggernaut.

With there being soo many items I think that's what is confusing me the most. Especially what items to prio first, I'm guessing most of the time it's adjusting to what you're up against?

All in all though, even against bots and playing the limited heroes mode, I'm enjoying it. I need a break from rocket league anyway. That game has started to stress me out and is no longer enjoyable due to moron's in ranked -.-

[Drunkenvalley]

Well, I'm gonna be upfront: You're probably fine not knowing anything, because at your current MMR mostly nobody has a clue either way. The first and most important thing you need to do is simply learn how to farm, basic positioning and how to punch heroes.

Because at the MMR I presume you to be at nobody knows how to farm. They're also constantly out of position, like literally constantly. Finally, most of them are too scared to attack each other, so the actual winner of the game is basically whoever is confident enough to assault the enemy.

[JP1o]

Because at the MMR I presume you to be at nobody knows how to farm. They're also constantly out of position, like literally constantly. Finally, most of them are too scared to attack each other, so the actual winner of the game is basically whoever is confident enough to assault the enemy.

I get that, I like to think I can farm ok'ish? Decent amount of Last hits and denies. Although I don't "jungle" as much as I should but I've found with viper its easier to sit in mid and just harass heroes with poison attack.

I think my best game so far, unranked, I went 20/2/15 with viper. 160 LH and 25 denies in a 40minute game, 650ish gpm and similar for xpm, I was level 22 at the end. Not sure if that equates to anything. Item wise, Ring of Aquilla, that item that heals and gives armor on use, scepter, Manta, Monkey king and power treads.

[Deleted]

I get that, I like to think I can farm ok'ish? Decent amount of Last hits and denies. Although I don't "jungle" as much as I should but I've found with viper its easier to sit in mid and just harass heroes with poison attack.

I think my best game so far, unranked, I went 20/2/15 with viper. 160 LH and 25 denies in a 40minute game, 650ish gpm and similar for xpm, I was level 22 at the end. Not sure if that equates to anything. Item wise, Ring of Aquilla, that item that heals and gives armor on use, scepter, Manta, Monkey king and power treads.

Not to be rude (moreso in the interest of informing) 160 CS on a core hero in a 40-minute game is outright awful by high-skill standards. The general mark to aim for on heroes that farm well is 10 CS/minute in a game of that length (i.e 400 CS), and while Viper farms rather more slowly than most core heroes, "good farm" in that sort of game on Viper is at least 250+ CS and more like 350.

CS numbers obviously depend quite a lot on game situations, and there will definitely be games where 5-6 CS/minute is fine - often because the game drags out into a stalemate or because you have to 5-man as a team for almost the entirety of it, or because you reach a point where you're already 6-slotted with a consumed Moon Shard and buyback gold - but it's very easy to be lured into the illusion of having "enough farm" and getting drawn into a pointless mexican standoff by the mid T1 while some guy on the other team just farms the sidelanes and ends up having more net worth than your entire team combined. If you're not currently doing something together with your team, and you're not immediately at risk of getting ganked if you venture out onto the map, you should always be looking to hit creeps as a core hero.

[Drunkenvalley]

In all fairness PraisetheSun, if you're participating in roughly 1 kill every minute there may be a pretty significant loss in CS. It's a bit of a poor example without the replay itself at hand.

[Deleted]

In all fairness PraisetheSun, if you're participating in roughly 1 kill every minute there may be a pretty significant loss in CS. It's a bit of a poor example without the replay itself at hand.

Be that as it may, I think we can both agree that 160 CS/40 minutes cannot be construed as "good farm" by any stretch of the imagination, at least as pertains to the standards of really good DotA. He could have participated in 2 kills/minute and I'd still be of the opinion that 160 CS is too little, particularly given the fact that he only died a total of 2 times.

[Lysah]

I honestly don't feel like I have ever purchased Mek in a pub and not immediately felt like I wasted all of my money. I see it as an entirely personal buy to increase your own EHP and not a team item in the slightest bit. There is no guarantee you can get your team to fight or push or do anything together, so buying a team oriented item is always a waste of time.

[JP1o]

Be that as it may, I think we can both agree that 160 CS/40 minutes cannot be construed as "good farm" by any stretch of the imagination, at least as pertains to the standards of really good DotA. He could have participated in 2 kills/minute and I'd still be of the opinion that 160 CS is too little, particularly given the fact that he only died a total of 2 times.

Alright alright, calm down. Considering I only have 10 hours experience in a moba.

[Deleted]

Alright alright, calm down. Considering I only have 10 hours experience in a moba.

I never claimed it wasn't fine for your current skill level - all I'm trying to do is give some perspective as to what "real" good farm is so you have something to aim for. Farming is one of the easiest (and arguably one of the most important) things in DotA to get better at, and you might as well give yourself a head start over the other players who have just started playing MOBAs and will neglect how important simply hitting creeps is for the next 500 hours. You can literally make it to 4-4.5k MMR just by being good at farming and having very few other DotA-relevant skills.

IMHO if you're not going to play DotA to continuously improve as a player, the game's not worth playing. It's just not a casual enough game to piss around in and never try to improve at, if you ask me.

[Lysah]

I'd love to see a replay of a pro game where a Viper has 400 CS at 40 minutes. I'm pretty sure that would be a world record.

[Deleted]

I'd love to see a replay of a pro game where a Viper has 400 CS at 40 minutes. I'm pretty sure that would be a world record.

Are you being intentionally obtuse, or just not bothering to read what I write in detail before criticizing it?

The general mark to aim for on heroes that farm well is 10 CS/minute in a game of that length (i.e 400 CS), and while Viper farms rather more slowly than most core heroes, "good farm" in that sort of game on Viper is at least 250+ CS and more like 350.

I literally made a specific caveat for heroes like Viper, DK, Razor, etc which aren't generally going to average 10 CS/minute - but 7-8 CS/minute on those heroes is totally possible; there's some clowny VP.G Viper game on record where he ended with well over 600 CS and 40k net worth. And even then, 10 CS/minute is still a great benchmark to aim for when you've got complete free-farm, particularly when you're playing cleave carries like AM and Jugger.

[PizzaSHARK]

So I've finally decided to give Dota a try, after a bunch of buddies trying to get me to play for a long time. Bare in mind I have zero moba experience.

Whats a good, handful of heroes to focus on? At the moment, I currently have about 10 hours played, and only been playing limited heroes + hard bot matches, mainly as Viper and Juggernaut.

With there being soo many items I think that's what is confusing me the most. Especially what items to prio first, I'm guessing most of the time it's adjusting to what you're up against?

All in all though, even against bots and playing the limited heroes mode, I'm enjoying it. I need a break from rocket league anyway. That game has started to stress me out and is no longer enjoyable due to moron's in ranked -.-

Simple heroes are good. Crystal Maiden, Witch Doctor, Lich, Dazzle, Ogre Magi are all good picks for supports. There's nothing particularly complex about them and you'll learn different useful things (timing Shallow Graves as Dazzle, positioning yourself so you don't get interrupted/blown up while channeling your ultimate as Witch Doctor or Crystal Maiden, etc) while playing as them, and they're all quite good at all levels of play.

Look for guides written by Torte de Lini. They may not be the absolute best most ultimate uber pro builds, but they're all very good and easy to understand and will nearly always be the top-voted guide for a given hero. There are usually multiple guides available for heroes that play multiple roles or positions (for example, there are separate guides for Batrider depending on whether you're mid, jungle, or offlane.)

[Sarevokcz]

I'm sure you do.

meh, he sort of has a point, people will blame the jungler every single time for their incompetence. When I dont feel like laning, I usually pick NP and Im very active with ganking since l3/4, have like 80% kill attendance in the first 10 minutes, unless we stomp the lanes and Im not needed there or just cant with 50s cd on tp, but that doesnt stop people for blaming me anyway, even if its their own damn fault, like those passive QoPs, that dont gank till like level 9 or terrible carrys, that, despite me doing several sucessful gank tps on their lane and securing them almost freefarm, will still somehow have 25 cs at 10 minutes, chose to engage in completely retarded skirmishes and have zero map awareness and get ganked, even after you ping the enemy, while theyre crossing warded spots and still blame the 700 gpm NP with 5/1/5, who pushed the opponents safe lane under their rax for not tping into 2v5 engagement and dying aswell...

obviously there are the bad games, where the lanes just dont work out and in retrospect I would be better off on something else and I deserve the blame, but it feels like blaming the jungler is the #1 excuse for terrible players nowadays

[Longview]

I need a break from rocket league anyway. That game has started to stress me out and is no longer enjoyable due to moron's in ranked -.-

give it a few months and this is what your opinion will be on dota 2

honestly i'd suggest you just random every game until you find a hero you really enjoy playing, and then just play that until you get bored. probably repick if you get techies, meepo, invoker, chen, or arc warden

here's a great video to give you some pointers on positioning and zoning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihVc2swLPQ
getting better at this will win you many games

[theostrichsays]

Alright alright, calm down. Considering I only have 10 hours experience in a moba.

I'm probably on the lowest end of skill/experience here as I just started playing the game again but everybody on other forums has stressed my 10/20/30 minute CS timers and item time over pure end of game CS. A 20 minute or less Radiance with an average of 6 CS is of more value then a 30+ minute Radiance with an end game CS of 8/pm if it is inflated by AFK farming.

Don't take my word over the other more experienced players here, it is just what has been stressed to me since returning. But hope you enjoy the game, and best of luck.

- - - Updated - - -

Simple heroes are good. Crystal Maiden, Witch Doctor, Lich, Dazzle, Ogre Magi are all good picks for supports. There's nothing particularly complex about them and you'll learn different useful things (timing Shallow Graves as Dazzle, positioning yourself so you don't get interrupted/blown up while channeling your ultimate as Witch Doctor or Crystal Maiden, etc) while playing as them, and they're all quite good at all levels of play.

Also Criiz just another new/returning player opinion here (me not pizza) Ogre Magi and Lich are both heroes I've had solid success with, returning. Ogre's armor and health regen covered up a few early game mistakes while Lich makes it a lot easier to help maintain the creep line in a favorable spot since I've encountered more then one excessive Auto Attacker. I've had a few good runs though as Witch Doctor, as low MMR players face tank his Ult and Cask lvl 3 can absolutely save the day on early game gank/small team fights in lane.

Just realized while I was gone Centaur Warrunner had a AGHS upgrade added. Was watchign a game and a Warrunner popped it in the middle of a fight and I was really confused and somebody explained it in Dota tv chat.