[Megathread] DotA 2

[RobertoCarlos]

Pretty much. Thats great players like crackleslap have problem free gaming with talented charming players most games. But as you said, when you're a made up name with an avatar and will likely never see that player again who cares. And it was better in MMO's before there was cross realm. To use WoW as an example, people that trolled and ninja'd loot from raids were broadcasted across the realm. Did it stop it completely? Of course not but it sure as shit did help, and some peoples toned down their behaviour to not be black listed. Now we have cross realm similar to dota 2 and its worse than ever.

Dota 2 has a 1950's time out corner that doesnt mean shit. I've actually had more enjoyable games IN low prior because people actually wanted to win to get out.

[Kralljin]

If you were stuck with your pug wiping over and over, with no way to kick people and getting penalised for leaving yourself then they'd be just as bad, if not worse.

Honestly, i've been in a lot of really bad PUGS and stayed in there for more time than the avg. dota game lasts and still hasn't reached the level of frustration you sometime experience in dota.

Mostly because people still kinda stick to a certain behavior, because they know if they throw around too many insults their group disbands or they get reported.

The community probably consists of similiar people, the difference simply is that Moba's bring out the worst in people, because they know they can behave like the greatest scum on earth and receive rarely / no punishment for that.

You can't change the character of people, but you can influence the behavior of people, if you behave like a total dick in WoW you won't be going beyond LFR because you get kicked instantly out of any PUG / Guild.

If you throw around the same insults in LFR like people do in dotA, you're paying Blizz to keep you banned.

This is obviously due the type of games, but it doesn't change the fact that people in WoW do not behave like people in Mobas, simply because really bad behavior is punished by other players directly, while in Dota you can just klick the report button and hope that it stops.

The WoW Community isn't the holy grail of online communities, the introduction of LFD / LFR and the extension of LFG wasn't really a blessing on that but that they still show a better behavior than the really bad moba games is kinda true, may be also that PvP games involves a lot more emotions than PvE.

After all, most games in dota remain pretty uneventful but when the shit hits the fan, you're in for a ride.

[StrawberryZebra]

Honestly, i've been in a lot of really bad PUGS and stayed in there for more time than the avg. dota game lasts and still hasn't reached the level of frustration you sometime experience in dota.

Its not an ideal comparison, WoW tend to be played at a slower pace with less frustrating consequences for failure other than being asked to respawn and try again. If your WoW group breaks down people can be replaced, if your Dota team breaks down you've still got to suffer through the rest of the game with them. WoW has options to deal with the problem before your group becomes a pool of toxicity. If those weren't there I expect things would go just as far as they do in Dota, having an out prevents it from ever going that far usually.

I have on the other hand seen some of the absolute worst behaviour imaginable when I tried Blade and Soul, their looting system was effectively GDKP for anything that dropped without any class restictions. You got a lot of people who did their best to bleed party members of their gold, and the whole thing fostered an atmosphere of suspicion and mistrust. Naturally everything kicked off after the first boss. The community in Rift has some serious issues too, so much so that I had more people on ignore there than I have in Dota and LoL combined.

This is obviously due the type of games, but it doesn't change the fact that people in WoW do not behave like people in Mobas, simply because really bad behavior is punished by other players directly, while in Dota you can just klick the report button and hope that it stops.

Giving more power to the players helps out immensely, its not foolproof, but it would be a step in the right direction at least. If it was up to me, I'd allow players to dole out not exactly punishments, but something that would let you know that what you did was out of line. I don't really know what that could be, since ejecting them from the game isn't an option, and a chat ban or something similar would be too much power. Maybe something like Commendations, just for negative things? I don't know, that might just encourage people to go out and see how high they can get that Intentionaly Feeding score.

The big problems, as I see them, with the Dota system at present is you get no immediate feedback on what you did wrong. You might have been a massive raging dick two games ago, but have calmed down at the end of the third one and then get told you're having a nice holiday in Low Priority. Given that it can come after a chilled game it can give the wrong kind of message.

WoW solves this problem by letting you kick people from the group. It doesn't tell you exactly what you were doing wrong, just that whatever it was it was out of order. Its not a perfect system, but it does work. The punishment is immediate too which helps reinforce the idea.

[Worgar]

Dota 2 has a 1950's time out corner that doesnt mean shit. I've actually had more enjoyable games IN low prior because people actually wanted to win to get out.

this hurts me deep because I spent atleast 40-50 games straight trying to get my friend out of low prio, but he would just keep raging, and then i'd just finish the game with hopefully 3 other players after he left. So long....so soul crushingly long.

[Crackleslap]

Pretty much. Thats great players like crackleslap have problem free gaming with talented charming players most games. But as you said, when you're a made up name with an avatar and will likely never see that player again who cares. And it was better in MMO's before there was cross realm. To use WoW as an example, people that trolled and ninja'd loot from raids were broadcasted across the realm. Did it stop it completely? Of course not but it sure as shit did help, and some peoples toned down their behaviour to not be black listed. Now we have cross realm similar to dota 2 and its worse than ever.

Dota 2 has a 1950's time out corner that doesnt mean shit. I've actually had more enjoyable games IN low prior because people actually wanted to win to get out.

Less try hards in unranked.

[Kralljin]

Its not an ideal comparison, WoW tend to be played at a slower pace with less frustrating consequences for failure other than being asked to respawn and try again. If your WoW group breaks down people can be replaced, if your Dota team breaks down you've still got to suffer through the rest of the game with them. WoW has options to deal with the problem before your group becomes a pool of toxicity. If those weren't there I expect things would go just as far as they do in Dota, having an out prevents it from ever going that far usually.

Yeah, but it simply comes down to that, which i said above:

You deal with the same / similiar people in MMO's as in Moba games but in most MMO's their worst personality gets punished while in Moba you have to suffer through.

The type of game plays a big role there obviously, but at the end of day, if you really care a lot about friendly interaction with other players, choosing a game where bad people can have a lot of influence over your game experience (due the type of the game or something else) you should better stay away from those game.

The big problems, as I see them, with the Dota system at present is you get no immediate feedback on what you did wrong. You might have been a massive raging dick two games ago, but have calmed down at the end of the third one and then get told you're having a nice holiday in Low Priority. Given that it can come after a chilled game it can give the wrong kind of message.

Yeah, but for some reason i doubt that anyone who was a flaming / ruining assbag in two games previously, then behaves correct in the third forgets why he gets shifted into low priority, people aren't animals who forget what they did an hour ago, they remember what they did.

The main thing is simply, you can't punish them when they start to behave like assholes, the game at this point is simply ruined and you have to deal with it.

Nice behavior should be rewarded, that would be a decent start, the thing is you can't just invent a system where nice people are being automatically rewarded.

You could reward people with extra MMR if they receive 3+ commends in a single game, the thing is simply that there's no automatic system which rewards those people in case they haven't done anything wrong but received no commends. (Leaving the potential for abuse aside)

This matter is that difficult that Riot Games even hired some people to find how they could make their community less toxic:

http://www.nature.com/news/can-a-vid...aviour-1.19647

[StrawberryZebra]

This matter is that difficult that Riot Games even hired some people to find how they could make their community less toxic:

http://www.nature.com/news/can-a-vid...aviour-1.19647

I believe that Riot actually made most of the behavioural data they've gained public. Whats most interesting about Riots system is that you get the report card not long after the game has finished telling you what you did wrong and whats going to be done about it. You get warned that what you're doing is out of line before any punishment sets in. There are also incentives on offer for players who toe the line too in the form of craftable cosmetic items, end of season rewards and other various benefits too. It has both positive and negative reinforcement, compared to Dota which only has negatives.

What I find most interesting however is this quote from the article;

“If the numbers they put out there are correct and true, it seems to be working well,” says Jamie Madigan, an author in St Louis, Missouri, who writes about the psychology of gamers. And that's because the reprimands are specific, timely and easy to understand and act upon, he says. “That's classic psychology 101.”

This is one of the areas Dotas current system falls short, and one of the ones thats easiest to fix. You get a report card every so often letting you know how you've been behaving recently, but its not specific to certain games or delivered in a timely manner so it might as well not even exist at all. And its something that could be fixed without much effort too - You get reported by more than one person in a game and you're shown a card telling you how many people and why. Its as close as you can get to a slap on the wrist through a video game.

But the big gains seem to be from combining immediate feedback with their automated system. It won't stop repeat offenders of course, but acording to Riots data when they implemented it a staggering 92% of people changed their behaviour and caused a 40% drop in Toxicity across the board.

If that is too much like hard work for Valve they could just colour the loading screen tips . Even that saw offensive language drop by as much as 11% compared to the control group.

What can clearly be seen from whats in the article however is that what Riot has done has been working. Toxic behaviour only affecting 2% of games is a hell of an achivement, and they're still working on getting it lower. I look forwards to reading more about what they're doing, its facinating work even if it doesn't directly affect players. Are Valve paying attention to this kind of work? I guess we'll never really know, but they probably should be it has some value to it for the future, even if it doesn't offer them a ton of immediate solutions they can implement today. Getting something similar from Valve about how their system has been working in Dota would be facinating as a comparison too, but I really don't see that happening.

[Tojara]

Not that I care about majors at all (I just don't follow them) but are they going to release a balance patch prior? Looking at trends in the past they typically release a major balance patch 2-3 weeks prior to an event, and I haven't heard any rumblings at all of an incoming balance patch. I guess the spring cleaning update was going to be it?

I won't be too upset, because honestly they tend to change the game way too much with their balance patches anyway, but it would have been nice if some heroes were picked a little less than 100% of the time.

[Crackleslap]

It'll before the group stage im sure.

[Bapestar]

Pretty much. Thats great players like crackleslap have problem free gaming with talented charming players most games. But as you said, when you're a made up name with an avatar and will likely never see that player again who cares. And it was better in MMO's before there was cross realm. To use WoW as an example, people that trolled and ninja'd loot from raids were broadcasted across the realm. Did it stop it completely? Of course not but it sure as shit did help, and some peoples toned down their behaviour to not be black listed. Now we have cross realm similar to dota 2 and its worse than ever.

Dota 2 has a 1950's time out corner that doesnt mean shit. I've actually had more enjoyable games IN low prior because people actually wanted to win to get out.

Never seems to be the case for me lol, the toxicity is unbelievable. Racism, fighting over courier, 0 wards, afkers in lane, etc. Whoever thought of lp is a genius, its so awful.

[Longview]

reminder that dota automatically queues you with toxic players if you yourself are a toxic player

i haven't been flamed once in my last 100 games i think

[M1r4g3]

reminder that dota automatically queues you with toxic players if you yourself are a toxic player

i haven't been flamed once in my last 100 games i think

Oh yes, and then even if you don't flame the toxic shits report you anyway for any random reason creating a snowball effect where you get even more toxic people that report you even more until you're at borderline low prio tier, which is such a retarded system cause its extremely hard to leave that, and very easy to fall into without you being able to do shit about it.

[Longview]

Oh yes, and then even if you don't flame the toxic shits report you anyway for any random reason creating a snowball effect where you get even more toxic people that report you even more until you're at borderline low prio tier, which is such a retarded system cause its extremely hard to leave that, and very easy to fall into without you being able to do shit about it.

i'm sure this happens but i've logged 3k+ games on four different accounts and literally never been in low prio

to me it seems kinda similar to people who say they're stuck in the 3k mmr hell and can't get out because they always have shitty teammates

i could be wrong

[M1r4g3]

i'm sure this happens but i've logged 3k+ games on four different accounts and literally never been in low prio

to me it seems kinda similar to people who say they're stuck in the 3k mmr hell and can't get out because they always have shitty teammates

i could be wrong

Oh neither have i, in order to get into low prio you actually have to be true scum or just be a abandoner. Im talkin more about the ''hidden pool/shadowban'' as in when you get reported a few times and then get slightly more cancerous teammates.
As for 3k mmr hell, i truly think it exists between ~3.4k to 3.9k mmr, those games are by far the worst, people are random as hell, one game you can get a full team of farming gods with the map awareness of a blindfolded blind guy or people with the map awareness of a GPS that cant get a cs with quelling blade treant.
Basically its only ''hell'' cause its random as hell.

[Ownero]

So, NaVi vs VGR 1st game of the finals SL i-League.....holy shit some amazing Dota

[Feindy]

yeah was quite fun
im just wondering why pro players fuck up so many void ultimates. is it that they are trying for big plays, opponents reaction time is low or are they just nervous? i dont mean this game only but vg vs lgd when void caught 3 ppl from his team and none enemy, i think this shit cost them game 1 for example

[Bapestar]

reminder that dota automatically queues you with toxic players if you yourself are a toxic player

i haven't been flamed once in my last 100 games i think

That isn't true at all.

[Longview]

That isn't true at all.

http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...=1#post1086255
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...30#post1082330

obviously this doesn't mean you're unable to queue into some people, just less likely. you also get additionally put in low priority should you get enough reports.

i played a few soloqueue games on a friends account last week. every single one of those games were terrible experiences. everyone was pinging, some dude was screaming into his microphone. there's less than 200 rating difference between our accounts. first time i saw people fight over mid in i don't even know how long.

i know it's anecdotal and i know the dev isn't specifically saying they do it for flaming or whatever, but i really do believe this to be true.

[Bapestar]

http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...=1#post1086255
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...30#post1082330

obviously this doesn't mean you're unable to queue into some people, just less likely. you also get additionally put in low priority should you get enough reports.

i played a few soloqueue games on a friends account last week. every single one of those games were terrible experiences. everyone was pinging, some dude was screaming into his microphone. there's less than 200 rating difference between our accounts. first time i saw people fight over mid in i don't even know how long.

i know it's anecdotal and i know the dev isn't specifically saying they do it for flaming or whatever, but i really do believe this to be true.

It must not be reliable, I barely even speak and get horrid teams, maybe I just have bad luck.

[Maruka]

My score is over 9k in that attitude score and i still get dicks in every game.