[Megathread] DotA 2

[Kurdiern]

@ Fencers

Examples? I had little difficulty with most things and found the game very polished, can't remember anything I've fiddled with for 30 mins.

[Restos3]

Sloppiness of design? What game are you playing, lol.

[Fencers]

@ Fencers

Examples? I had little difficulty with most things and found the game very polished, can't remember anything I've fiddled with for 30 mins.

In the options screen: Action item, Taunt item, Auto cast ability, Purchase sticky and Activate Glyph were unclear as to what they did. The hero select, hero sticky key and hero camera follow options were also poorly explained or not at all.

Tooltip wording for abilities is murky without easily readable range indicators or targeting indicators. Wording such "Ability: Auto-Cast" for Drow Ranger or "Target Point" for Puck are only apparent after demonstration. Range indicators or wording for things like Nature's Prophet Teleportation also lead to a false sense of what they do on blush.

Lower wall & UI are not scaling, game space is small & isolated. Control of heroes is floaty given their momentum and quasi rubberbanding camera. Such as when you move with camera lock it floats slightly rather than moving snappily with the champion. Summoned units need ctrl binds to operate and so on. Courier and shops are obtuse in clearly showing recipes and dependent items.

There are battery of issues and lack of clarity with the lobby as well. Such as no Esc key to options screen. Having to flip the entire lobby up when you do hit options. Speed of creating a custom game. Reconnect speed after a DC and more strikingly how unclear it is you can reconnect to a game after a DC.

It is also difficult to distinguish enemy champions from allies. Bot naming is non-helpful. Enemy abilities are very difficult to read only compounded by the darkness of the game itself. Most of the PVP gameplay relies on meta-knowledge.

The first DOTA was also quite poor and amateurish despite popularity. DOTA2 definitely has a lot more polish in certain aspects. Though perhaps that has more to due with a dedicated engine rather than sitting atop an RTS. However, DOTA2 still carries the visages of that older game/genre. The legacy of DOTA2 shows.

[Lysah]

Also, if a player you have reported is banned, upon logging in you'll get a notice letting you know that the asshole got banned.

Still need confirmation on this, I haven't seen it happen. I know I've only reported like twice, but it's because they really deserved it. Two guys on my team one game used force staffs on me while I was jungling to throw me up onto cliffs where I couldn't get out (me as Leoric), then proceed to spam click the courier to the corner of the map so I couldn't fly in teleport scrolls, THEN when my friend got his own teleport scrolls and blinked them to me, VS (one of the trolls) force staffed herself next to me and swapped me to break the teleport. Considering one of the report categories is "intentional ability abuse," it doesn't really get more clear cut than that.

@VX
Everyone flames everyone for everything. It might just be the top ELO tier where people take the game way too seriously though, when I queued with Zefie who had literally 0 games played we got put into games with obviously newer players and they were actually very nice in general. Small sample size of course, could just be luck. In any case, expect to see a community much worse than LoL right now.

@Fencers
Jugg is definitely one of my favorites too, he has such a diverse and powerful kit at all stages of the game, and such a power ultimate.

And yes I agree DotA is very...inaccessible to new players. But I kind of like it that way (biased as hell of course). I would hate if they dumbed the game down more just to make it easier to learn. Though, in beginning to try to teach Zefie (who plays LoL and so isn't new to the genre) I have begun to realize just how much stuff needs to be said.

[VXFadhel]

Usually new players tend to be more friendly in the begining. Anyway about the learning thing, dont know how hard it is to get into the game but you have to start somewhere in the ladder^.^ Tough enviroments makes people (maybe just me) learn faster if played right. One of the problems that new players might find is, how they can handle the community (if it was bad). Getting used on a certain hero in the begining *usually* gets you into the game faster, mainly playing that hero. After getting used to the game, you can check other heroes (Even though some tend to check the heroes before getting used to the game).

[Lysah]

Fencers does have a point though, the game is a lot more subtle. The game has some very complex spells that you won't really understand until you use them, and a lot of spells that you don't even really get to see happen (torrent is a good example, until you actually play kunkka I doubt it will be easy to understand just what the hell is going on). It definitely is not that easy, when each hero has a pretty high skillcap on its own, for new players to be trying to learn everything.

I would still recommend playing each hero once for new players, you just really have to see and use the abilities so that you stop getting smashed by heroes you don't understand.

[Fencers]

@Fencers
Jugg is definitely one of my favorites too, he has such a diverse and powerful kit at all stages of the game, and such a power ultimate.

And yes I agree DotA is very...inaccessible to new players. But I kind of like it that way (biased as hell of course). I would hate if they dumbed the game down more just to make it easier to learn. Though, in beginning to try to teach Zefie (who plays LoL and so isn't new to the genre) I have begun to realize just how much stuff needs to be said.

Unfortunately I think the timing of my post was ill. A few other posts seem to be dogging the game before my own post and it looks too negative.

Want to stress that the gameplay of DOTA2 is still excellent. Very nice to see them focus on that aspect before things like range indicators and options. Looking at the game as an observer via VODs and youtubes I was under the impression the game was tight as a drum- understandable given the amazing play on display and fidelity. Though it's clear after playing the game still needs a bit more iteration and polish.

Just to be crystal here; gameplay is fantastic. I was merely commenting on personal frustration with regards to clarity and accessibility. I do not mean to put DOTA2 in a poor light as a faulty game currently.

[Kurdiern]

@ Fencers: To be honest, I find a lot of the murky/unclear things you describe clear as day and very easy to understand. I had very few issues that you did and the ones I did took maybe 2 minutes at most to resolve. Seems a bit nitpickish. Though, I do admit I still have no idea what the hell Action & Taunt Items are. I just ignore them
I've got hope that when Valve releases the beta it will be great. Hopefully it will be like the League beta in explaining mechanics, but will avoid teaching players to buy thornmail first on Ashe >_>


@ Lysah: From OD patch notes "When a player is banned, everyone who reported them since their last ban receives a message when they next login informing them that justice has been served." Example

[Finear]

Though, I do admit I still have no idea what the hell Action & Taunt Items are. I just ignore them

those are for not yet implemented non-gamechaning items
bonus sounds etc.
http://www.cyborgmatt.com/2012/03/do...schema-update/
of course everything for $$

[Freezymcgee]

Some interesting statistics... repost from r/DotA2

481,053 players in beta (players who have played atleast 1 public matchmaking game)
Hero with the highest winrate: Lich (59,0%)
Hero with the lowest winrate: Alchemist (39,7%)
Total amount of public matches played: 3,598,678 games played.
Most picked hero (since start of beta): Pudge (1,241,848 times picked, 34% of all games contained a pudge!)

[VXFadhel]

You might get stomped by that hero once or twice but you will get used to it (and know their abilities in the process)^.^ If you are like me that you have hard time remembering names, let alone each ability*. I agree with you that certain heroes are harder to get into than others though. Just clearing things up though, I dont mean you will master the hero in the process or master the game, I meant that you will get into the game faster as you having something contant (the hero in this case).

@Fencers: Its appreciated that you share your frustration, as it gives more insight about the game. Think of it this way, someone who says that the game is too good, he/she will sound exaggerating. Someone who says that the game is too bad, they will sound like bashing the game. However, someone who says that the game is good and share their thoughts about what they think is bad (or how it can improve in a certain way), gonna sound more truthful about the game.
*Example: Fire is bad, stay away from it.

[Hermanni]

In the options screen: Action item, Taunt item, Auto cast ability, Purchase sticky and Activate Glyph were unclear as to what they did. The hero select, hero sticky key and hero camera follow options were also poorly explained or not at all.

Considering the game is still in closed beta a great deal of content and features aren't in the game yet save for the placeholders. Virtually none of the features that are meant to help new players are in the game yet, it's simply not something they priorize at this point.

Tooltip wording for abilities is murky without easily readable range indicators or targeting indicators. Wording such "Ability: Auto-Cast" for Drow Ranger or "Target Point" for Puck are only apparent after demonstration. Range indicators or wording for things like Nature's Prophet Teleportation also lead to a false sense of what they do on blush.

You're right, the tooltips are awful right now, but that's another thing that probably isn't high-priority.

Lower wall & UI are not scaling, game space is small & isolated. Control of heroes is floaty given their momentum and quasi rubberbanding camera. Such as when you move with camera lock it floats slightly rather than moving snappily with the champion. Summoned units need ctrl binds to operate and so on. Courier and shops are obtuse in clearly showing recipes and dependent items.

The "rubberbanding camera" is also awful... which is why you can turn it off by capping camera acceleration. I don't really know how you expect to micro multiple units without control groups, but there's two "easy" ways: Turn Unified Unit Orders on in the options and when you hold down ctrl, the command you give is sent to all units you control except the courier. Also by ctrl-selecting and binding a unit you bind all the units of that type, meaning you only need to bind units like Prophet treants once and they'll be bound to the same key every time you summon them. The other easy thing is tabbing which switches your selection to your next unit.

There are battery of issues and lack of clarity with the lobby as well. Such as no Esc key to options screen. Having to flip the entire lobby up when you do hit options. Speed of creating a custom game. Reconnect speed after a DC and more strikingly how unclear it is you can reconnect to a game after a DC.

I'm not sure what's unclear. If you DC you go to the play tab and it has a button for reconnecting if the game is still live. If the game is safe to leave or if you restarted your client there will be a leave game button as well.

It is also difficult to distinguish enemy champions from allies. Bot naming is non-helpful. Enemy abilities are very difficult to read only compounded by the darkness of the game itself. Most of the PVP gameplay relies on meta-knowledge.

You might be right, the original Dota had option for team colors embedded on heroes. I can't really relate to any of this, but presumably they will make the game easier for new players in that aspect. To me the spells are extremely distinguishable and I can see everything clearly in teamfights. In HoN everything was a fireworks display and sometimes the challenge in teamfights seemed to be to not have a seizure rather than try to figure out what was going on. From what I've heard the situation is somewhat similar in LoL, to some extent at least.

The first DOTA was also quite poor and amateurish despite popularity. DOTA2 definitely has a lot more polish in certain aspects. Though perhaps that has more to due with a dedicated engine rather than sitting atop an RTS. However, DOTA2 still carries the visages of that older game/genre. The legacy of DOTA2 shows.

I don't really know what makes first Dota "amateurish" that isn't in Dota 2? What could they have done differently with WC3 engine? Your post kind of made sense until this paragraph.

[Restos3]

Woah, Lysah was banned? o.O

[Duilliath]

Yup. Boub banned her for 2 weeks.

[Crashdummy]

I have been playing Dota 2 a little, and i cant belive how Valve made this mistake.

They tried to copy HoN instead of just copying Dota 1 and improve it.

Dota 2 is a copy of HoN but with Dota heroes.

Apart from the channel screen wehn you are forming a group and the in game shop design (both flawed designs that are in HoN and were copied in Dota 2) the worst problem is in the Graphics.

In order to make the game with better graphics but at the same time darker, they created many heores in such a way that they stand out very little in the screen.

Some of them are very little, and you dont realize the instant you see them exactly which heroe is (which you do in Dota 1 and LoL because heroes stand out very clearly, even small ones).

This is a big mistake, i dont know why Valve copied a game that failed miserably instead of getting the ideas from Dota 1 and LoL which both are succesful ones.

[Fencers]

All the stuff about beta is correct. I already addressed it. Very obvious DOTA2 lacks usability polish.

The "rubberbanding camera" is also awful... which is why you can turn it off by capping camera acceleration. I don't really know how you expect to micro multiple units without control groups, but there's two "easy" ways: Turn Unified Unit Orders on in the options and when you hold down ctrl, the command you give is sent to all units you control except the courier. Also by ctrl-selecting and binding a unit you bind all the units of that type, meaning you only need to bind units like Prophet treants once and they'll be bound to the same key every time you summon them. The other easy thing is tabbing which switches your selection to your next unit.

Yes, I know this now. After fiddling with controls and turning on/off options, adjusting controls, etc. That is not good game design. It is exactly the opposite of it in fact.

I'm not sure what's unclear. If you DC you go to the play tab and it has a button for reconnecting if the game is still live. If the game is safe to leave or if you restarted your client there will be a leave game button as well.

The extra step of going to the Play tab already breaks the function. Further, it wasn't immediately obvious that you had to do this nor that one could start a new game inadvertently.

For example, DC a couple of weeks back; reconnect to the game itself. No reconnect option upfront. Hit the tabs a bit. Search. There was no indicator to join the game my friend was in already. But I instead got the option to create a new lobby game with the same geme title we had before. Murky.

DC in LOL, client places a large button center of screen that say "Reconnect" and you go right to game. One can not even click another option. Clarity.

You might be right, the original Dota had option for team colors embedded on heroes. I can't really relate to any of this, but presumably they will make the game easier for new players in that aspect. To me the spells are extremely distinguishable and I can see everything clearly in teamfights. In HoN everything was a fireworks display and sometimes the challenge in teamfights seemed to be to not have a seizure rather than try to figure out what was going on. From what I've heard the situation is somewhat similar in LoL, to some extent at least.

It's not similar at all actually. DOTA2 has a lot of creatures and over animation. The darkness of the map and opacity of the tree line in areas are all indistinct. When I run about the jungle I can't even be sure where are the ramps or walls. I frequently get stuck.

Most aspect of the game depend on meta knowledge or trial & error. Where as in HON, Demigod or LOL- the visibility and most importantly the readability of the map and heroes is crystal clear.

I can go into further detail if you like on good game design and bad; as this can be illustrated in like 2 screen shots. Everything in a game ideally is recognizable immediately and can be expressed purely through gameplay.

I don't really know what makes first Dota "amateurish" that isn't in Dota 2? What could they have done differently with WC3 engine? Your post kind of made sense until this paragraph.

I was fairly clear, you simply read poorly as indicated by your follow up question.

I did not think the first DOTA was worth a lot of respect. The particulars of the gameplay at the time struck me as amateurish and limited in scope. It's been years so I do not care about the game to one wit. DOTA1 it was essentially bound by the gameplay of an RTS and those legacy factors are very poor. Such as the secret shop work around, the unit control options, interface and so on.

Need not do anything differently with the WC3 engine- awesome idea, poorly designed game.

[Silent]

Yup. Boub banned her for 2 weeks.

Was afraid to ask why Lysah was banned.
So why was she banned? and Duilli how do you know boub banned her for 2 weeks?

[Hermanni]

I was fairly clear, you simply read poorly as indicated by your follow up question.

On the contrary, I did read it carefully and you seemed really vague. Thing is, you're mainly criticizing a game that's still largely WIP for lack of clarity and features. Dota 2 was developed to be showcased in The International last august in games between pro teams, who were largely the only people with access to the beta. They wouldn't care if the tooltips were unclear or the options were messy. From then on the focus on Valve has been to bring the Dota 2 to the state of Dota in terms of competitive play, which means their focus in content patches has been competitive balance and features and adding the rest of the heroes, which are still at 73/108.

I've played thousands of games of Dota and HoN and I think heroes and spells are most distinguishable in Dota 2. In DotA, N'aix model for example was the exact same as a scourge melee creep, which didn't really stand out so well. Recognizing enemies and abilities isn't really something I have trouble with, but I guess it's one of those things that comes with experience. They will probably implement something to help players with that, but exercising game awareness doesn't hurt either. I can't say where LoL stands in this as my experience with the game is very limited, so I'm not going to try and make an argument with a game I haven't learned enough to make any statements.

I don't think Dota suffers from having an RTS background, because all of the games of the genre essentially are modified RTS games. Micro-management among other things is something I'd never give up in Dota, Enigma and Enchantress being among my favorite heroes. I also kind of prefer the name Valve put on the genre (Action RTS), which in my opinion describes the gameplay rather well, to the enigma that is Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. I always thought Riot must have had a thing for silly acronyms.

I'd just like to hear how DotA could have been designed better. The game was still raised to be among the top international competitive games by one man alone, which is pretty good for a mod-based game, like, say, Counter-Strike.

[Duilliath]

Was afraid to ask why Lysah was banned.
So why was she banned? and Duilli how do you know boub banned her for 2 weeks?

Same way you could find out, just a quick check of Lysah's most recent posts.

[Restos3]

Same way you could find out, just a quick check of Lysah's most recent posts.

Yeah I stalked her too :x