[Megathread] DotA 2

[PizzaSHARK]

Sorry but crit damage doesn't out-dps naix att speed early game. Naix is able to continuously build damage where as leoric is forced to immediately build survivability to be of any use. I'm not gonna sit here and theorycraft the usage of forcestaff because I could say the same thing about SK's slow stun being easy to force staff, fog juke, but it wouldn't give my argument any credit as it doesn't give yours any. You can sit here all day crying about how pro's don't know what they're doing, but the numbers, ratings, and stats will always be against you.

What survivability? Naix is 25+2.4 Strength with something like 1.3 base armor. Leoric is 22+2.9 Strength with 3.5 base armor. Naked level 25, Naix has 2088 HP with 10 armor, while Leoric has 2250 with 12 armor. Leoric is inherently tankier than Naix.

Sure, Leoric will need to pick up a BKB against competent teams, but BKB is 4000 gold. Naix is going to need to buy a Buriza to keep anywhere near Leoric's damage output, and Buriza is a lot more expensive.

Literally the only advantage is infest ganks? SK doesn't get ganked because he just fights back and kills everyone? I'm officially done talking to you for now because we clearly play on different levels.

LOL

Like every Leoric runs around at 100% mana, it's not like he uses his Stun that often, and it's not like you can drain him while standing on the line. The soulring is the only thing that stops Lion from completely destroying Leorics' mana. I am not talking about theoretical situation where Leoric and Lion just appears near each other, Lion starts draining and Leoirc stands around.

Yeah, I'm thinking of a teamfight. Lion's only going to have time to start sucking on Leoric after he's already used his other spells (hopefully on enemy supports?), and there's not much he can do to stop Leoric from just walking up and punching him to death. Best case scenario would be using his spells on Leoric and sucking away while Leoric's stunned/hexed, but then he's not using his stuff on squishy supports and whatnot and Leoric's doing his job of being a mana sponge.

Like I said, it's 200 mana over four seconds of channeling, and without any stats at all, Leoric can still throw a stun, eat a full duration Mana Drain, and still have plenty of mana left over for his ult, assuming he's at level 11 or close to it. It's not unreasonable to think Leoric will be around 9-11 by time teamfights start showing up for real and not just little skirmishes here and there, and pretty much every Leoric build incorporates at least a Bracer and/or Wand.

Necro's been nerfed a lot and will probably continue to be nerfed. It's an item that scales exponentially with how well the player controls the minions. With 0.75 BAT and the feedback on swing, plus essentially an extra Drums aura, it's an extremely potent item that's pretty reasonably affordable. Hell, Drum of Endurance has been getting nerfed almost every damn patch and it's still made constantly. It's just a really, really good item. Necrobook is in the same boat, especially at higher levels of play (where people will do more than summon the creeps, attack-move, and forget about them.)

I personally feel like removing Midas as a means of removing the creeps was a mistake. But, hey, maybe we just need to pick Chen/Bambi if we're worried about Necrobook plays.

[Sorcereria]

Question couse this combos make me %%"·"$·$ myself.

What would you pick for offlane vs Mirana Bane and another offensive support. This f***** combos make me wanna kill people irl as offlane. Dont tell me to get boots of speed first. I had a game where it was banes first item and I had no way to hide. Granted I didnt loose the lane totally couse players were shit, but I guess at higher MMR I wont be able to leech any exp as clock. So anything that you could pick and not be trashed or just abandon the lane?

[Charge me Doctor]

@PizzaSHARK
Well, i was talking about lane phase and ganks, that's a shame. Usually when i see Leoric, i don't bother to "counter" him, but sometimes i want to play Lion, and see Leoric on enemy team, it means that i will go to his lane, get level 2 drain at level 4 and stun>drain him whole game, leaving him without stun, and when he will get level 6, without ult. When you smoke gank leoric, throwing stun/hex+drain will eat through his manapool and leave him with choice: throw a stun, or resurrect. Draining in teamfight is rare thing from my experience, you'd better use CDs to reposition or to AA someone down. But sometimes it's more important to deplete someones mana pool, even if it's a rare occasion
Again, soulring is annoying and still gives him "free ult"

[Lysah]

Question couse this combos make me %%"·"$·$ myself.

What would you pick for offlane vs Mirana Bane and another offensive support. This f***** combos make me wanna kill people irl as offlane. Dont tell me to get boots of speed first. I had a game where it was banes first item and I had no way to hide. Granted I didnt loose the lane totally couse players were shit, but I guess at higher MMR I wont be able to leech any exp as clock. So anything that you could pick and not be trashed or just abandon the lane?

SD, disrupt before arrow hits and combo is crushed.

[Charge me Doctor]

Biggest counter to Leoric is stun + mana burn at the same time, like bane ult, but most of those are countered by having a team and not 1v5ing.

Or, like Lion? I mean, he has stun, hex, and mana drain.

- - - Updated - - -

Question couse this combos make me %%"·"$·$ myself.

What would you pick for offlane vs Mirana Bane and another offensive support. This f***** combos make me wanna kill people irl as offlane. Dont tell me to get boots of speed first. I had a game where it was banes first item and I had no way to hide. Granted I didnt loose the lane totally couse players were shit, but I guess at higher MMR I wont be able to leech any exp as clock. So anything that you could pick and not be trashed or just abandon the lane?

Lets talk how sand kind +lesh are OPed combo that wants you to throw black baby dolls at the wall

[Lysah]

Or, like Lion? I mean, he has stun, hex, and mana drain.

His spells are too short range, he will get crushed by Leoric's team first. Bane can ult from relative safety with the right positioning.

[Charge me Doctor]

His spells are too short range, he will get crushed by Leoric's team first. Bane can ult from relative safety with the right positioning.

I don't remember range difference being that big to be a big deal. Again, Drain can be combined with team stun, and iirc drain range is much longer than Banes' ult.
And honestly, often when i see people trying to "crush" me (Lion support) in teamfight first, it doesn't end well for them.

[Lysah]

Too many variables to consider as far as team fights go, of course, but compare Luna's attack range to Drow's and how much every extra little bit helps.

[PizzaSHARK]

Or, like Lion? I mean, he has stun, hex, and mana drain.

BKB grants complete immunity to Lion. Fiend's Grip still stuns through BKB, and more importantly, still drains mana.

[Charge me Doctor]

Too many variables to consider as far as team fights go, of course, but compare Luna's attack range to Drow's and how much every extra little bit helps.

I think Sniper would be better example, each rank in Take Aim makes plays more safe, it's really hard to not notice.

[LiiLoSNK]

Always? Don't be so arrogant, Leoric will be a fotm hero eventually and the numbers will be with me. That's inevitability, even if it isn't this month or even this year. He literally isn't played at all right now, there aren't stats or numbers, so I'm not sure you can even say they're against me, 5 games is not a sample size, but whatever, I will agree that they're not on my side.

Literally? Wrong. He's played extremely rarely and with good reason.

I could've told you that before you even made a MMOC account, why are you just now noticing this?

@Lion mana draining during team fights
lol @ lion mana draining during team fights
good one 10/10 would pretend is possible again

Biggest counter to Leoric is stun + mana burn at the same time, like bane ult, but most of those are countered by having a team and not 1v5ing.

I can see why you stick to pubs.

What survivability? Naix is 25+2.4 Strength with something like 1.3 base armor. Leoric is 22+2.9 Strength with 3.5 base armor. Naked level 25, Naix has 2088 HP with 10 armor, while Leoric has 2250 with 12 armor. Leoric is inherently tankier than Naix.

Sure, Leoric will need to pick up a BKB against competent teams, but BKB is 4000 gold. Naix is going to need to buy a Buriza to keep anywhere near Leoric's damage output, and Buriza is a lot more expensive.

Base armor =/= Survivability

By your broken logic, weaver has no survivability because he has low armor. Show me a game where SK is able to match farm/damage with naix, and I'll you show some scrub pub game that only a bad player would think is credible. Surely everyone ignores sk and lets him farm. Sounds like a fun little bracket you guys have there.

[Lysah]

Yeah that's always nice, too, but both Bane ult and Lion drain are so piss easy to interrupt there's no excuse to be oom'd by them. You could also say Lion's mana drain counters just about every other hero in the game because they all need mana to play DotA, but we all know it isn't that strong because we all know he gets stomped flat if he tries to suck on people more than a second or two tops.

@LiiLoSNK
You're absolutely right! Pro players never ever pick new heroes and when they do it's 'gotta be trolling because those heroes must have been awful or they wouldn't have been picked. Man, I'm sad now that you weren't my philosophy professor, could've saved me a lot of time and money.

[Charge me Doctor]

BKB grants complete immunity to Lion. Fiend's Grip still stuns through BKB, and more importantly, still drains mana.

Wow such BKB. All Leorics rush it as first item, right? I find Bane being very strong pick, but his ult can be easily interrupted, while Lion will always land all his CC on enemy team. Unless 5 BKB off course

[LiiLoSNK]

Yeah that's always nice, too, but both Bane ult and Lion drain are so piss easy to interrupt there's no excuse to be oom'd by them. You could also say Lion's mana drain counters just about every other hero in the game because they all need mana to play DotA, but we all know it isn't that strong because we all know he gets stomped flat if he tries to suck on people more than a second or two tops.

@LiiLoSNK
You're absolutely right! Pro players never ever pick new heroes and when they do it's 'gotta be trolling because those heroes must have been awful or they wouldn't have been picked. Man, I'm sad now that you weren't my philosophy professor, could've saved me a lot of time and money.

They don't pick him because naix offers 10x more as a hero. How you don't see this is astonishing.

[Charge me Doctor]

Yeah that's always nice, too, but both Bane ult and Lion drain are so piss easy to interrupt there's no excuse to be oom'd by them. You could also say Lion's mana drain counters just about every other hero in the game because they all need mana to play DotA, but we all know it isn't that strong because we all know he gets stomped flat if he tries to suck on people more than a second or two tops.

Drain is very situational, if you are able to catch Leoric who already used up to 70% of his mana, and you gank him with someone who has CC, he can be CCed while you drain the shit out of him leaving him either without mana at all, or with mana enough only on revive or stun.
Well, it's over exaggeration that Drain can counter every hero, because, for example, KotL will render drain useless. Also there is a lot of heroes with decent manapool and/or regen items.

And draining for full duration is very rare situation, i don't remember being in one outside of hardcore 5v1 gangbangs

[Deleted]

Necrobook > Leoric ulti

Easiest hero to counter in the game

[Lysah]

They don't pick him because naix offers 10x more as a hero. How you don't see this is astonishing.

I've played DotA a lot longer than 3 months, that's how. Why do you think Icefrog keeps targetting his ULTIMATE for buffs to try to get the pros to pick him? It's because it's the most minor buff he can give the hero to get people to give him a chance - buffing anything else could seriously break a hero who is already at the top and has been for literally years.

[LiiLoSNK]

Necrobook > Leoric ulti

Easiest hero to counter in the game

Nah. SK is a great hero. Any hero that can have their pivotal core disabled by 1 item is a great hero. When will pro's learn?

- - - Updated - - -

I've played DotA a lot longer than 3 months, that's how.

You seem to be implying that 3 months ago SK was common in competitive dota. That's pretty wrong. How about anytime in the last 2 years? Nope still wrong.

[Sorcereria]

SD, disrupt before arrow hits and combo is crushed.

Can you distrupt during bane E ?

I somewhat agree about SK being not that weak of a hero but both SK and LS suffer from same issue. Being kited but usually in pubs people rarely counter it with force staffs, slows. Ghost scepter, worst naix nightmare. On the other hand biggest naix weakness is, if you have decent picks, once rage is off and you kited him a bit, he is melting like a butter, while SK gonna come back again and often you dont have anything left. Not to mention his EHP gain is much higher than naix, hi SK with with 3.5k-4k HP with very few items while naix has somewhat around 2.2k? Naix can farm faster though.

Not to shabby that SK vampiric aura is actually much like permanent wounds. Naix passive is getting progressivly worse while attacking target that has less and less hp.

SK has better passives, different ulti and better stat gains and no native BKB but stun. Can pretty much sum it up.

And I hate his burst. Naix cant 1 shot a support

[Lysah]

Nah. SK is a great hero. Any hero that can have their pivotal core disabled by 1 item is a great hero. When will pro's learn?

Force staff and ghost are both a lot cheaper than nec3 and they disable N'aix. Keep trying. Maybe after N'aix gets a half a dozen buffs you will have any idea what you're talking about. But, hey, I'm sure if you just spit up whatever you see on twitch you will at least look right to the hive mind at places like reddit.

Know what, N'aix is actually countered for 0 gold by anyone with an anti-bkb stun. Once his rage is gone his damage is low and once his wounds is gone his damage is 0.

Can you distrupt during bane E ?

You could but I'd just wait for arrow and then use it so that arrow misses.