[Megathread] DotA 2

[LiiLoSNK]

Repel is a skill for early game, in late game carry gets BKB, because relying on Omniknight not being silenced, CCed, in range is pain in the ass in mid/late game. And how does diffusal blade nullifies his ultimate? is it an global buff removal? You can remove it from only one enemy, and that's it. You have to pick, do you want to remove repel from this hero? Or do you want to use it on this half health Rhasta to AA him down? Or do you want to use it on Nightmared Dazzle from your team? Or do you want to remove drunken haze from yourself so you will be able to actually attack?
You sound like you win games just because you use purge on Repelled target, i;m sorry, but fight doesn't stop on this, and people know that this is possibility, and people are, usually, ready for this, and impact from having purge in the hands of your carry and delaying an actual item on said carry for 3.3k gold is very debatable

You're arguing that every fight Omni will be allowed to cast his repel and ultimate without being stopped and that it will automatically hit everyone on his team guaranteed. I'm arguing that diffusal is a way to prevent this from happening because late game omni will have to repel himself to avoid being useless.

You aren't understanding that diffusal has the potential to take him out of the fight. All of the situations you listed rely on the other team being terrible, so arguing with you benefits me in no way.

Another thing I think you don't understand is that most of the time, the physical damage dealers will be on 1 target. What benefit does his ult have on the people not being focused? The ones that are still taking magic damage and getting cc'd. I really don't understand how you think aoe phys immune is worth having if 1 person can still be purged and be targeted by your physical damage dealing carries.

The only reason his ult is nice is because it makes EVERYONE immune to phys damage. You can't pick a target to focus because theyre all immune. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THE ULT HAS ANY USE (besides blocking tinker march spam or ember spirit SoF or gyro etc i guess). The way you're thinking of his ult makes me think that when you play dota, everyone is on different targets and spazzing out of control. Which is fine. But, I'm talking about focused play. Please think about this for a while.

[PizzaSHARK]

You have to pick, do you want to remove repel from this hero? Or do you want to use it on this half health Rhasta to AA him down? Or do you want to use it on Nightmared Dazzle from your team? Or do you want to remove drunken haze from yourself so you will be able to actually attack?

Enemy Bane is gripping someone and has Repel. Enemy hard carry/#1 is down to 15% HP and has Guardian Angel. You only have one purge, who do you purge? Do you stop Fiend's Grip, possibly allowing you win the teamfight or allowing you to save your carry, or do you purge the enemy carry so they can't be saved? Diffusal Blade does not counter Omni in any way, shape, or form; it just limits him a bit. (This is mostly for Lilo's benefit, I'm just using your post because it helps outline why Diffusal Blade doesn't nullify Repel or Guardian Angel.)

You sound like you win games just because you use purge on Repelled target, i;m sorry, but fight doesn't stop on this, and people know that this is possibility, and people are, usually, ready for this, and impact from having purge in the hands of your carry and delaying an actual item on said carry for 3.3k gold is very debatable

And Diffusal Blade continues to cost 800 gold every 8 uses throughout the game, making it even more expensive to maintain than dust (90g per use compared to 100g per use.)

Every single time they purge someone, that enemy basically just threw 100 gold into a bonfire.

You're arguing that every fight Omni will be allowed to cast his repel and ultimate without being stopped and that it will automatically hit everyone on his team guaranteed. I'm arguing that diffusal is a way to prevent this from happening because late game omni will have to repel himself to avoid being useless.

Not really. He can get Agh's for global range ult (and longer duration, too), and Repel lasts 12 sec, it's absolutely possible to use it before the fight begins so it can't be halted with a silence, stun, etc. Fiend's Grip, Black Hole, etc only need a few seconds of time to get the most out of their use, they don't need the full 12 sec.

Another thing I think you don't understand is that most of the time, the physical damage dealers will be on 1 target. What benefit does his ult have on the people not being focused? The ones that are still taking magic damage and getting cc'd. I really don't understand how you think aoe phys immune is worth having if 1 person can still be purged and be targeted by your physical damage dealing carries.

25 HP/sec regen basically works out to be like a Mekansm. Many carries have cleave damage or attacks that hit multiple targets (glaives, flak cannon, etc), which are all completely nullified during GA. Using GA makes it impossible to quickly blow up a valuable support like Rhasta or Bane and then transition into the enemy carry once the enemy control-bot is dead.

GA also applies to creeps, making it fantastic for diving towers or getting guaranteed damage on t3 towers/rax regardless of a farmed Medusa, Kunkka, Luna, etc being present.

The only reason his ult is nice is because it makes EVERYONE immune to phys damage. You can't pick a target to focus because theyre all immune. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THE ULT HAS ANY USE (besides blocking tinker march spam or ember spirit SoF or gyro etc i guess). The way you're thinking of his ult makes me think that when you play dota, everyone is on different targets and spazzing out of control. Which is fine. But, I'm talking about focused play. Please think about this for a while.

You're pretty quick to call people bad, but you're the one that's thinking linearly here.

[veiledy0]

Best counter to Omni is Naga. Ult when he ults, gang rape whoever has Repel, stop song when GA expires, proceed with the cleanup.

[LiiLoSNK]

etc

1) An extremely situational situation. I could name 1000 situations against you as to where Diffusal would be beneficial.
2) How often are there more than 8-16 5v5 team fights in a game of mid-late dota? What game are you playing?
3) The only way he's getting aghs is if he's stomping and going to win anyways or if he rushes straight aghs by being useless the other 99% of the game
4) I already mention a few aoe dmg heroes. If you guys understood how situational Omni was, I wouldn't have to repeat this because these are the types of games someone might pick omni. GA doesn't even come close to making it "impossible" to quickly blow up" any hero, when your team has a diffusal. Also lol @ the mention of GA creep advantage. Totally game breaking
5) It feels more like you're both thinking linearly by not being able to recognize the use of diffusal against Omni. I started out saying it's a good item against him and you both instantly were quick to argue that it isn't. I'm describing my game experience from high tier pools, where as you both are just nit picking the few situations where diffusal doesn't help counter an omni, and to be honest, the situations you're describing imply that Omni is in an optimal position AND GA is great because people can't focus a single target.

If you're used to games where everyone just attacks whatever they want and has no grasp on CC in general, you may as well not consider a diffusal, because no item at that level is going to matter.

[Maruka]

I think ags on omni is pretty solid ive been getting it a lot since they made the change to allow his ult global. It seems like it always turns the game around. After aghs we start to stomp and then i sometimes get enough for refresher and then its gg.

[Deleted]

Omni isn't a counter to Tinker. Repel doesn't do anything when Tinker can just spam March and pick and choose who he wants to nuke. Omni struggles a lot against Tinker in fights because he has to stay so far back unless he wants to get bursted down or CCed.

Storm is only a counter to Tinker if Storm gets a decent start and he won't get that for sure in the mid lane. You have to lane Storm on safe lane to even make him a viable counter to Tinker. I am very familiar with people who pick Storm against me when I play Tinker and I laugh every time. They get utterly destroyed on lane and by the time they have Orchid I'm already near completing Hex. I mean, it's annoying to deal with a Storm who is only after you in fights but managable when you have much more farm and items from a free mid lane.

I also don't think LC is a counter to Tinker. How will you catch the Tinker with Duel in the first place? And if you Duel someone else Tinker counters you because of Laser and Hex.

[Deletedaccount1]

1) An extremely situational situation. I could name 1000 situations against you as to where Diffusal would be beneficial.
2) How often are there more than 8-16 5v5 team fights in a game of mid-late dota? What game are you playing?
3) The only way he's getting aghs is if he's stomping and going to win anyways or if he rushes straight aghs by being useless the other 99% of the game
4) I already mention a few aoe dmg heroes. If you guys understood how situational Omni was, I wouldn't have to repeat this because these are the types of games someone might pick omni. GA doesn't even come close to making it "impossible" to quickly blow up" any hero, when your team has a diffusal. Also lol @ the mention of GA creep advantage. Totally game breaking
5) It feels more like you're both thinking linearly by not being able to recognize the use of diffusal against Omni. I started out saying it's a good item against him and you both instantly were quick to argue that it isn't. I'm describing my game experience from high tier pools, where as you both are just nit picking the few situations where diffusal doesn't help counter an omni, and to be honest, the situations you're describing imply that Omni is in an optimal position AND GA is great because people can't focus a single target.

If you're used to games where everyone just attacks whatever they want and has no grasp on CC in general, you may as well not consider a diffusal, because no item at that level is going to matter.

Yeah I'd have to agree with you, I think that in almost every situation I can think of if an omni knight is already that out of control your biggest mistakes probably weren't your item choices against him.

- - - Updated - - -

Best counter to Omni is Naga. Ult when he ults, gang rape whoever has Repel, stop song when GA expires, proceed with the cleanup.

I think that requires slightly too much coordination and timing for most pubs to handle but it does make sense, I've never really thought about it before. I have probably lost to/because of an omni no more than three times in Dota.

[Sorcereria]

Silencer and Omni in 1 team in pub.

Loose 2 sets of rax by 30min mark. Win the game by 60min.

Back to topic, naga ult is pretty straight forward reset. Its lovely vs heavy nuke innitiators, SK, Tide and we see a rise in their picks recently. Quite hard omni counter aswell, probably the same reason why we dont see Void often aswell since a single ability can pretty much screw your entire team effort.

[Jester Joe]

I think that requires slightly too much coordination and timing for most pubs to handle but it does make sense, I've never really thought about it before. I have probably lost to/because of an omni no more than three times in Dota.

I've begun just to assume when they're talking about certain heroes being weak, it's usually about pro teams, or at least group of friends, which in that case, Naga would easily be the best counter to Omni. The most I usually see an Omni do is win lanes early depending on who he's partnered with, and then late game all he can do is ult really, but by then he's already caused his carry to get enough gold. Pub Omni definitely is a decent pick I'd say.

I also don't think LC is a counter to Tinker. How will you catch the Tinker with Duel in the first place? And if you Duel someone else Tinker counters you because of Laser and Hex.

Because Phase Boots LC is 2fast4u. Although you'd probably end up having to dive past their entire team to get the Tinker, and you'd probably just get stunned/sheeped along the way, since obnoxious horn only removes debuffs, not make immune, so unless you can sneak in to the Tinker before he can react with Blink/Shadow Blade or rush through with BKB, yeah, I'd agree, even at that rate you're not countering Tinker unless you have items, and even then it's not really even a counter.

Clearly Lion is counter, stun/hex and mana drain. Suck it Tinker.

Also if they were to nerf Tinker's rearm time, what if they just added the normal rearm time as a perk for agh's on top of what it has already? Causes him to need a bit more farm if he really wants the quick rearm, not sure that would actually work well even though.

[EqualWin]

aghs tinker is pretty stupid as well, at least now every1 go for hex/dagon and u see them in the teamfights, if they go aghs, they'll be afk spaming missiles lol

[Jester Joe]

aghs tinker is pretty stupid as well, at least now every1 go for hex/dagon and u see them in the teamfights, if they go aghs, they'll be afk spaming missiles lol

Which at taking Ariadne at their word (which contrary to their belief probably 95% of the time I actually agree with them lol), Aghs on Tinker is terrible actually compared to everything else Tinker can do. Which is why if they nerf rearm they could put the pre-rearm nerf amount onto Aghs.

Think like how they buffed/nerfed Culling Blade for Axe, decreased the cost and CD I believe yet also decreased the HP needed to use it for the insta-kill (This is off the top of my head, probably wrong a bit) but put the old threshold as the Agh's buff, they could do similar with Rearm, the only issue is I lack the foresight of Tinker experience to see if that would be an over-nerf on Tinker honestly, to which Ariadne could tell if it is.

To what I'm seeing is it will
1) Increase the value of Agh's to Tinker
2) Increase the amount of time Tinker will need to farm for his best output in a team fight

I'm just unsure of if it's actually needed.

[Clrg]

Where does the idea that tinker need a nerf come from?

[Longview]

Where does the idea that tinker need a nerf come from?

it comes from here:

After watching a few of these BTS LAN games, I'm pretty sure Tinker needs to be nerfed. He's nothing extraordinary in an average player's hands, but at the top-tier pro level, there is no way that hero ain't OP. You can sit on him in lane and delay his bots, but he IS going to get bots eventually, and once he does it's almost impossible to stop him from getting farmed. It seems like the only option is to either stack up picks that perform well against him, or ban him so that they can't get him if you don't want to have to run those kinds of heroes.

Really like to see Rearm nerfed to 3/2.25/1.50 sec channel time. March of the Machines spam and permanent sheepstick (and no cd blink) are what make him OP as hell, but I think it's Rearm having such a short channel time at 11 and especially 16 that make the ability+item spam so possible. Reduces amount of time during sheepstick from 2.50 sec to 2.00 sec before it ends, after using Rearm... sounds like the change made to Alch stun back when, it's no less powerful, but makes it less idiot-proof and requires tighter timing if you want to keep someone permasheeped.

Shit, if we can make scythe of vyse a little less attractive, we might actually start seeing agh's scepter builds. I fucking love agh's on Tinker, but it's never picked up because permasheep is such a high priority

[Clrg]

i see, thank god icefrog isnt morello.

[Keldarin]

Another option is to make Rearm not reset a couple of the items, like hex stick, and buff aghs to reset the CD on hex stick and a couple of new items.

It would force the permahex to come later into the game, when it's easier to deal with it for the enemy team and aghs would be a much more wanted item for tinker without making him OP as he would need to farm for the other items as well. And he only has 6 slots making item choices matter even more.

[veiledy0]

Another option is to make Rearm not reset a couple of the items, like hex stick

That's like saying let's make PA's crit only scale with base damage. Perma hex doesn't come into play until Tinker is lvl 16 and has the actual item anyways, and that hardly ever happens before 25 minutes.

[Longview]

i dont think making aghanims scepter a mandatory item on tinker (when he already needs boots of travel, soul ring, bottle) is a very fun approach

hell i dont think tinker is overpowered

obnoxious as fuck, sure. he is nowhere near lycan pre-nerf or old earth spirit, though.

[Drunkenvalley]

I feel a great joy whenever someone decides to complain about how your chosen hero at the time is apparently OP. It makes me feel a little fussy inside.

[veiledy0]

i dont think making aghanims scepter a mandatory item on tinker (when he already needs boots of travel, soul ring, bottle) is a very fun approach

hell i dont think tinker is overpowered

obnoxious as fuck, sure. he is nowhere near lycan pre-nerf or old earth spirit, though.

Lycan nerfs weren't even noticable. He still does everything he did before at the same rate. The only hero that's actually getting seriously nerfed is Invoker.

[Jester Joe]

i dont think making aghanims scepter a mandatory item on tinker (when he already needs boots of travel, soul ring, bottle) is a very fun approach

To be fair, it doesn't seem like he has much wiggle room with mandatory items already, at least what I'm getting from this thread.

I feel a great joy whenever someone decides to complain about how your chosen hero at the time is apparently OP. It makes me feel a little fussy inside.

This is one of those few times when the interchangeable usage of "s" an "z" throw me off, because fuzzy and fussy are very different for me lol

Personally I was just saying if he needs a tweak, that's the one I'd expect, something to rearm.