[Megathread] DotA 2

[Deleted]

I didn't happen, that's why I said for example.

I was talking about general theory crafting on the forums rather than specific examples.

I know it was an example but I don't see any similar discussions that I've been in where my skill level would stop us from trying it, which you said was the problem.

[Sorcereria]

You are too far fetched with your justification, becouse it works ALL WAYS becouse of march.

If tinker is behind, he can stall the game.
If tinker is ahead, he can stall the game.
If other team is AHEAD, they cant finish it regardless.

Given the opponent team vs tinker a tool to deal with breaking rax earlier you basicly made your win % numbers for all game durations pretty even.

Tinker doesnt rape early game, march spam just makes your long game numbers look twice as terrible for tinker than in reality they are becouse while playing from behind tinker moves the % win ratios to the next time bracket, than to the next longer etc. in his ability to drag the games

That is, talking about pooping some numbers without taking this into consideration.

[Deleted]

I know it was an example but I don't see any similar discussions that I've been in where my skill level would stop us from trying it, which you said was the problem.

Its not necessarily you that is involved in an argument about whats better and who should beat who, I just used you as an example because I know you are better than pretty much everyone here.

Its just a general comment about being able to actually test theories accurately.

[LiiLoSNK]

Because typing the most = Being the best. It's the exact opposite on the actual reputable dota forums.

[Deleted]

Nobody missed it, we've just been trying to tell you that it's your fault if your team can't help at all late game and that if you are in such a bad spot that literally none of your allies have anything you would'dve lost the game long ago as any other hero in the game. This doesn't make Tinker bad late, this makes him stupidly broken because that 50 minute loss would've been a 15 minute loss with any other hero in the game in his place.

And if you won't change your playstyle to make them win their lanes then you are setting yourself up for losses. Carrying worse players as mid is not about being a selfish and greedy player to maximize your own potential, it is about recognizing what your team needs to accomplish to win and doing that. You don't know if your winrate would go down if you let other people farm, do you? Have you ever actually tried it for more than a game or two here and there? Have you learned how to play around having less gold and not getting that 25 minute dagon 5? I'm not convinced.

I am sure all of you could play the hero properly, you just choose not to, which is exactly why we're talking about this. You think you know best, like all high end players, and refuse to experiment or try anything new because you think you know best already. Same exact reason the meta stagnates until Icefrog forces people to change.

Did I say otherwise? I said that Tinker by nature delays games that are lost. Those are the only situations in pubs where it goes late. I said Tinker was bad late game in pubs. I even said that I agree Tinker is very strong in late if his cores are also farmed.

Don't you think I've never tried ganking in my Dota career? Don't you think I've seen people fail when they do it? You think I improved at the game by always assuming I'm the best in the game and can learn nothing from anyone? Carrying from mid is recognizing what will give you the highest chance to win. I don't know if I would lose more if I relied on others more than myself? Yes I do. For as long as I've played Dota I've seen this. It's the best way to win Dota in pubs and it's been shown. Now, you can sit and argue that you'd win more by ganking but that's like saying the best team in the world should change their playstyle because they'd win more. Sure, you might be right but there is no reason for them to believe you because everything they've done shows otherwise.

Of course those that are at the top would assume they know best. They experiment with things they think sounds good. If I have an idea I think might be good I'll try it. If I have an idea that in my mind sounds awful then of course I'm not going to waste my time trying it. If pros would try every idea then they'd not even be pros in the first place.

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You are too far fetched with your justification, becouse it works ALL WAYS becouse of march.

If tinker is behind, he can stall the game.
If tinker is ahead, he can stall the game.
If other team is AHEAD, they cant finish it regardless.

If Tinker is ahead he will finish the game.

[Sorcereria]

I guess you assume everything in your favor. Since the only hero that can turtle games is tinker, right?

[Deleted]

I guess you assume everything in your favor. Since the only hero that can turtle games is tinker, right?

No, I'm just saying a Tinker probably won't stall the game if he is ahead. Anyway, I didn't understand anything of what you wrote after that.

[Deleted]

Any pro meepo tips? He's one of the few heroes that I still hate so I figured I might start playing him.

What I struggle with most is obviously the micro. I changed poof to quickcast which I don't usually use and have control groups 1 - main meepo only, group 2 - the rest, group 3 - all of them and when engaging I select the non-main meepos, poof and tab to the approximate target position and then select the main one and blink + net there, then selecting all. Early game, I try to farm lane with the main meepo (safe lane for now) and with the others to go around jungle poofing weaker creep camps. For items I go for PMS, basil, brown boots, blink, aghanim, heart. I understand hex is common item on him as well, but in my current state I don't know if it wouldn't be a waste as it involves even more micro.

I know that you can improve micro only by playing more, still, I would like to hear some tips and tricks from better players or inspiration in how to do things differently.

[Hermanni]

Because typing the most = Being the best. It's the exact opposite on the actual reputable dota forums.

I didn't know such things exist, to be honest.

[Clrg]

Not a fan of SB, people almost always buy dust in my games now so its rarely viable on any hero.

Blink allows you to position yourself properly for boats quickly and the x mark the spot / blink combo is fantastic mid and late game especially.

Its basically a SB but costs 1000 gold less and give slightly less damage but at 15 minutes in the game hitting a good boat is more important than hitting for an extra 100 damage on tidebringer.


And the point I was making is people flame you when you try out a new item without reason because "Its not standard" even if the item is actually really good. But they just start flaming like retards because that is what this sad and pathetic dota community does, the joy.


Oh and the problem is Ariadne, most people can't test thoerys with you because you are far more skilled then people here, which doesn't mean you know more (you probably do than most), testing a theory would only work if both people were equalish skilled.

There is nothing more annoying and scary than a 6 slotted kunka with dagger, X himself, blink, crit rapier the enemy team, back to safety.

[Hermanni]

And honestly, the #1 reason why seeing Tinker annoys me is not because he'll punish you hard if your team falls asleep while his supports stack ancients for him, it's just because there just isn't a fast win against him most of the time. I'm pretty sure me and my local noobcyka 5-stack have over 50% WR against Tinker, but it's just that a lot of the time we know we have won - we've several farming cores, good map control, enemy team has only 1 core in Tinker or Tinker is the only one getting farm - we just find ourselves unable to break high ground and the game goes from 25 minute mark, when we know we've most likely won, all the way to 50 minute mark when we can finally seal the deal.

As for the actual win rates as a factor of time you posted, it just kind of makes me wonder. I can understand why Dendi & co would want to maximize their own farm at the expense of their own teammates, firstly because they're Dendi and secondly because they've their stream and as long as they hit their 900gpm even when losing they'll get a couple new followers or subs. If I had to guess whether or not Tinker giving more space to his teammates when heading to late-game is a good idea or not, I'd have to lean slightly towards it probably being a good idea most of the time, but that's just speculation.

[veiledy0]

Now look what your discussion made me do. Now everyone hates me in pubs

[StrawberryZebra]

No, if you're making the statement that LC can't lose to DP unless the one playing LC is a retard you are saying that you will win the matchup every time unless you consider yourself a retard. These are the kinds of statements people make and it's easy to show by example.

Fact is LC doesn't have to be a retard to lose, she just has to be worse than DP. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of possible reasons why this could be, even for players in the same skill bracket, but at the end of the day if the skill gap is too wide in DP's favour she'll win. The same goes for any other matchup you can think of. It is the nature of Dota players to assume that everyone else is a retard anyway - Why should LC get a free pass just because she's against DP?
That's without even taking into account the huge number of potential variables you can have. Who knows, maybe a DP who rushes a Vanguard and a Talisman of Evasion will beat LC? I doubt anyone has ever tried it to find out the outcome. Maybe DP will win if it takes place in her Safe Lane and she can pull the creep wave to deny LC enough XP?
You can show plenty of clips of LC's beating DP, I'd guess that there are plenty of clips you can find where DP wins too. All these are really showing is that its possible for them both to win. They're not proving that one will beat the other all the time.

But we've been in circles about this for long enough I think.

Any pro meepo tips? He's one of the few heroes that I still hate so I figured I might start playing him.

What I struggle with most is obviously the micro. I changed poof to quickcast which I don't usually use and have control groups 1 - main meepo only, group 2 - the rest, group 3 - all of them and when engaging I select the non-main meepos, poof and tab to the approximate target position and then select the main one and blink + net there, then selecting all. Early game, I try to farm lane with the main meepo (safe lane for now) and with the others to go around jungle poofing weaker creep camps. For items I go for PMS, basil, brown boots, blink, aghanim, heart. I understand hex is common item on him as well, but in my current state I don't know if it wouldn't be a waste as it involves even more micro.

I know that you can improve micro only by playing more, still, I would like to hear some tips and tricks from better players or inspiration in how to do things differently.

Not much to add here, but I quite like getting Vlads on Meepo. Its great for keeping all your clones topped up between fights, its even better if you have other melee on your team that can benefit fully from the aura. Mek is also nice for the same reason too, and provides a nice burst heal for team fights. You said you've been using Brown boots, but I'd consider Power Treads, they'll help tank you up a bit and the extra attack speed is nice for extra Geostrikes. Boots of Travel are also nice in the later part of the game, Meepo is a great split pusher and has an easy escape with Poof.
You're not heavily reliant on items that provide you with raw damage, so you can also consider more utility orientated items like a Pipe. You might also want to consider an early Orb of Venom, it can help you get some early kills or set up for easier Earthbinds and it'll pay for itself if you can get a kill or two with it and it fully stacks with your Geostrike.

When it comes to micro I'd also set up hot keys to quickly select each individual clone too, as well as the group bindings. It'll come in handy against Lich Ults, Dark Seers and such if you can quickly separate all your Meepo's out to avoid most of the damage.

[Jester Joe]

Now look what your discussion made me do. Now everyone hates me in pubs

I'd hate you if you abandoned on me too.

I'm kidding though.

[veiledy0]

I'd hate you if you abandoned on me too.

I'm kidding though.

I lost internet for ~10 minutes. I actually came back, but then even techies was higher lvl than me, and I could still stall it to 55 minutes. Even matchmaker tool hates me, look what kind of teams I get I guess Meepo was his challenge hero.

[Jester Joe]

I lost internet for ~10 minutes. I actually came back, but then even techies was higher lvl than me, and I could still stall it to 55 minutes. Even matchmaker tool hates me, look what kind of teams I get I guess Meepo was his challenge hero.

Hey, they did better than I would of!

[Sorcereria]

Be carefull doing All Hero challange. F**** bugged shit. Waste of time.

Won enchantress game that was counted at first, after doing and winning bristle game, it reseted both and I got abandon... Screw you volvo.

[Deleted]

Do you get anything from hero challenge or is it just for fun?

[Deleted]

Do you get anything from hero challenge or is it just for fun?

There should be some kind of trophy for completing it depending on your number of tries, but other than that probably just sense of accomplishment.

Also it should be completable again when you finish, thus maybe challenging yourself to improve.

[veiledy0]

There should be some kind of trophy for completing it depending on your number of tries, but other than that probably just sense of accomplishment.

Also it should be completable again when you finish, thus maybe challenging yourself to improve.

Playing a hero you're clueless about doesn't really help you improve, it just ruins the game for everyone else on your team. If you want to improve on a hero you can't play, play against bots (looking at you meepos/invokers).