I Am Blood DPS

[Wih]

I have not linked any Logs. I have linked a screenshot only.

Whether or not you did, logs were posted on p1, which I was commenting on.

[Tinc Metals]

No, you would be pulling far superior numbers as either Frost or Unholy. You seem like a fine player though TC, so transitioning between two different DPS specs probably wouldn't give you any issues.

You are wrong with both statements. The part I underlined is an exaggeration. "Far suprior" would have to constitue they are doing 30% or more damage. They do not. Secondly, Blood plays largely different than Frost. It is not vegas lights at the wack-a-mole machiene that Frost is. My numbers I currently witness are 390ilvl (388*). One pvp item due to it being better dps than set LFR piece in breakdown. When I put out as good and even better numbers than anyoen of their similarly geared or beter DPSers, especially melee... turning me down is just biased foolishness (see bigotry). It would be no different than you turning down a Frost Mage beating out your Arcane Mage in dmg. Does he have to play better than the Arcane? Argueably, yes. You still wisley take the person doing more dmg.

[Judge Malthred]

Tinc Metals, I am all for outside the box play and am glad you are having fun as blood. I want to try it on my DK as I just love heart strike as an ability.

I was skipping over the haters and just looking for your posts about gearing, reforging, rotations etc. I saw that you DS when possible, and some tips for generating vengeance. What stat priorities have you come up with? Stack as much STR as possible? And what do you do for basic rotations? Keep diseases up via outbreak and DS/HS as much as possible? I am guessing you don't use death coil to allow DS to benefit from the glyph that increases its dmg based on runic power levels.

[Veyne]

I'm a firm supporter of playing however you want, as long as you're not causing wipes and your still downing bosses comfortable.

Back in TBC and Wrath, whenever I would got Smite DPS on my Priest for farm content in pugs, I'd actually get people cheering me on. Either that, or hanging their heads in shame when I out DPS them as Smite.

[Lawlapalooza]

I know I am compitent

Your post can no longer be taken seriously.

Offtopic posts to denounce other users is not allowed. -Nye

[hellhamster]

Without flasks, ubergear, pots or really trying. Blood dps is fun, but the reality is you can do more as unholy or frost.

[Deleted]

If it is the case that blood could out dps the other two, enjoy it while you can, as it'll probably get nerfbatted into hell with massive aggro gains!!

[Vladimeir]

You rely too much on vengeance stacking. In patchwork fight with no damage other than that hitting the tanks, blood does horriblyfor the following reasons: You have no vengeance, you don't generate nearly as much runic power, and you have nothing to cleave.

It's situational and still behind the other two specs.

If you enjoy playing it, by all means, go and play blood DPS. But don't try and justify it by trying to create a bandwagon of misguided information.

If you are received death threats, report them.

As far as the burst is concerned, if you have all your cooldowns, yes you have burst... So does every other spec with all of their cooldowns. And again, it comes down to vengeance.

[Tinc Metals]

Your post can no longer be taken seriously.

I am competent, not perfect.

Whether or not you did, logs were posted on p1, which I was commenting on

Ok, as long as you realize that is not my log.
This comming week I can get some World of Logs of DS up.

Now, what I didn't want to present here is ancetodal evidence. Same "evidence" several use in this thread. Things such as every Normal PuG I've been on I was #1 or #2 except on Harga and Yos for Normals. Both I attribute to amount of dead running time. Secondly, because you will merely say I went with bad people. Well, in LFR I rate top 5 on each fight. I don't feel bad when I notice higher gears are the ones above me. There's the rare person in similar doing more - typically ranged class. Once again "but those are bad players" will be touted. As if to imply that only bad players visit those. I could say I am always top in my Heroics I run for each week or extra save a few bosses. Same arguements, with additional excuse of it's a Heroic.

That is why I want to stick to logs and proof. Since I have to have the burden to show you. You get to pick the setting. That is what I asked. Do realize, I could of merely kept silent. No matter how good it really does. This thread and my going out of my way to get the proof you want, only benefits you and not me. Infact, it may get nerfs and only serve to harm me.

The other arguement that I could do better in Frost or Unholy with this level of skill. Well, because I have skill in this, in Blood, does not translate to skill in something else. Even if it did, it's not in the significant enough range for me to trade enjoyment. Not bleeding edge content here. If I can stay within 10% of another spec, ok. Which gives me the aviable range at which to outperform others by having more skill, then I will. To me and my experiences compared to using Frost and watching Unholy/Frost people compete agaisnt me, it's like the difference between Arcane and Fire Mage last tier. It's like if I had Skin/Herb and told I could do "far greater" with BS/Enchant. Not worth it.
Thanks.

[SSHA778]

That thread is out of date and T11. Changes have been made. DRW copies are better used on DS, unless AoE type fight is needed. T12 Set had benefits. T13 does not. DS takes priority over HS. One cannot Rune Strike in Unholy Presence. Vengence stacks much faster. Why you would take Vampric Blood is beyond me. I take increased Runic. Because I don't want Runic to go to waste when I DS at 81+ Runic, where it is more optimal. What good is Vampric over that? They guy isn't educated enough. He takes Improved Blood Presence thinking it regens his power faster in a different presence? No, it does not. You're better off benefiting everyone in raid by reducing damage taken over a small amount for yourself.

It's "out-of-date," strictly speaking, but ask yourself, from the time the post was last edited (4.2) until now (4.3), what has changed? There is only one item that has changed--and that is DS's damage can now miss. Using logic, you should infer that the value of hit/expertise have been raised. However, as Blood DPS, your goal is to use DS as a gateway to 2x HS, which does more damage, on average (including crit rate), than 1x DS. 1x DS will do more damage than 2x HS, but only if that DS crits. A normal DS only does more damage than 2x DS if you're somewhere over 70 RP, depending on your crit/hit/expertise. Other than that, on average, you are better off using HS if your goal is strictly damage. He said you should only be using RS in the odd chance that it happens to light up. You can use RS in unholy presence, provided that you somehow dodge/parry. He doesn't take 3/3 RPM because he claims he doesn't reach the RP cap that often. This means that, if you're managing RE properly, you shouldn't be reaching the RP where it is more damage to use DS. If you are, it's because you're misusing RE and not obtaining as many HS's as you could be getting.

Vengeance stacks faster and doesn't decay (correctly). So what? That doesn't change the underlying concept of how Vengeance works.

You don't understand how VB can benefit the raid. Yes, you lose out on 4 pieces of DPS gear, but an extra raid wall on a minute CD from a DPS is huge. Why do you think feral DPS will switch into bear form for their 4pc? It's also a personal cooldown that is useful for high AoE damage phases in fights if you don't have the 4pc, such as Yor'sahj yellow/red. You insinuated that he picked Improved Blood Presence for the rune regeneration. There is zero mention of that in his post at all. Don't make stuff up. He doesn't even say it's mandatory. You're trying to discredit him, but you're not really bringing forth anything yourself that establishes that I should believe you over him. While I'm not asking for logs, I am asking for defensible proof behind your claims. He has earned my credibility. You, however, have not. I'm more than willing to give you my attention, but you need to put the legwork into your claims.

[Krulani]

Others have said it. next time you go into a raid (or even LFR, i dont care) run World of Logs. You have piqued my interest.

[Tinc Metals]

@SSHA778

You are so wrong it's not even funny. There is a lot of misinformation in it. Time to pick apart your response...

It's "out-of-date," strictly speaking.

You should not begin with such an audacious phrase as if to imply it is not. It is out of date. Cold hard fact.

what has changed? There is only one item that has changed--and that is DS's damage can now miss.

This is your first wrong. Maybe you did not understand the patch. Death Strike damage could always miss. They changed it so that even if it misses it still heals.

Using logic, you should infer that the value of hit/expertise have been raised.

Incorrect, as stated above. The hit aspect has remaind the same. Your logic is already bad.

However, as Blood DPS, your goal is to use DS as a gateway to 2x HS, which does more damage, on average (including crit rate), than 1x DS.

This is a terrible run-on sentence that could be interpeted more than one way. However, I will show you some math which is better than you put forth.

depending on your crit/hit/expertise

The only thing that should be dependant there is crit. In any competitive raid setting one should be (as melee based DK) be capped in the other two.

Other than that, on average, you are better off using HS if your goal is strictly damage.

Incorrect. I will provide better math than your conjecture, later on.

He doesn't take 3/3 RPM because he claims he doesn't reach the RP cap that often. This means that, if you're managing RE properly, you shouldn't be reaching the RP where it is more damage to use DS. If you are, it's because you're misusing RE and not obtaining as many HS's as you could be getting.

You state this in a manner that implies that anything other than low Runic is bad. This is highly his opinion with no math put forth behind it. You should not be dumping on Rune Strike but rarely, and Death Coil is weak.

Vengeance stacks faster and doesn't decay (correctly). So what? That doesn't change the underlying concept of how Vengeance works.

"So what?" How much attack power you get and how quickly you get it and retain it is not a "so what?" mechanic. Do not use a coin phrase to win an arguement. That is a major change. How soon you get atk power is very important. It's why Unmaking's ramp up time IS considered. If it were to fade, like vengence. Then it would be considered even more. How long one retains their atk power is how every trinekt every made is valued. It does chance the very undlying effect on overall dmg. Which is why Blizzard did it, because changing that, changed damage, and provided more threat to Blood Tanks.

You don't understand how VB can benefit the raid.

Vampric Blood benefits NO ONE but yourself!

Yes, you lose out on 4 pieces of DPS gear

What the hell set bonus, or other gear would you give up 4 pieces for? Nothing.

, but an extra raid wall on a minute CD from a DPS is huge.

You must be confusing Vampric Blood with Anti-Magic Zone. There is no "raid wall" aviable here.

It's also a personal cooldown that is useful for high AoE damage phases in fights if you don't have the 4pc, such as Yor'sahj yellow/red.

You are definitely talking Anti-Magic Zone. Sorry, I don't think you even remotely know what you are talking about anymore, or a Death Knights talents!

You insinuated that he picked Improved Blood Presence for the rune regeneration. There is zero mention of that in his post at all.

He purposely takes it because of the description. Please, actually clearly read and not skim.

but you're not really bringing forth anything yourself that establishes that I should believe you over him.

I just did. Enjoy.

He has earned my credibility.

By no more than mere words like I have? I take it you give credibility to whomever comes first. Do you have a picture like I do? Do you have even one like the poster above me does?

but you need to put the legwork into your claims.

Which I am willing to do. But being condescending and/or offensive is not going to make me want to. Remember, if this already works for me, and works well. The only potential benefit is for you. I already mentioned both these things in prior posts.

[Daetur]

It's really fascinating that you've put in so much work for this, and it's very cool that you're able to have fun with it, but I'm still not sure why you're intentionally gimping yourself so severely in so many situations by not going a more traditional route-- I think it's kind of unarguable that, with equal skill and gear, Frost or Unholy would pull higher numbers. I suppose if you're not really doing anything where maximum damage output is an issue, there's no reason not to do something suboptimal because it's more fun, so more power to you.

The work you've put in here is very impressive, and I truly respect your skill, dedication, and effort, but I don't think it's going to change the fact that Blood will never again be seen as a legitimate dps spec at competitive levels-- even with the impressive results you've had here, it seems to be a higher risk/effort for less reward way to dps, and that's why people will likely never welcome it. You can be viable, as you've proven, but you won't be playing at maximum capacity for your role.

[Judson]

Ok so, this post is the one that forced me to create a mmoc account.

I currently hold two world #1 ranks for blood dk. (not bragging just sourcing my information)

As this is my first post ever I am unable to provide links. You can look up Judson on Thunderhorn PVE US for my armory profile and the same on wow-heroes.com to easily view the WoL rankings.

No offence intended towards the OP but people that don't post logs tend to brag and talk a lot about what they can or have done. I don't know how viable I would consider blood as a dps spec while not tanking. Vengeance is no doubt the deciding factor (40k attack power with some haste/crit gear is awesome!) However, I can confirm that all 8 fights in Dragon Soul 25man normal mode are tankable in DPS gear.

I get plenty of ranking in tank gear and I have an extremely hard time believing you could or have done any higher dps than I have while tanking in dps gear having full vengeance for the majority of the fight.

Please don't think i'm full of myself. I know it's just a game and the #1 rankings are on normal mode anyway (where all of the top raiding dk tanks are clearing heroic every week) The main point of my posting was to inform those curious that 8/8 normal 25man is very tankable with dps gear. Also, the next time I get a chance to not tank, I will try dpsing in my tank spec with dps gear and unholy presence to see how it feels.

[Netherspark]

It's really fascinating that you've put in so much work for this, and it's very cool that you're able to have fun with it, but I'm still not sure why you're intentionally gimping yourself so severely in so many situations by not going a more traditional route-- I think it's kind of unarguable that, with equal skill and gear, Frost or Unholy would pull higher numbers.

To be honest, there's a fairly low point where you're doing "enough" DPS and doing anything above that is pretty meaningless in the end. In other words there is no part of Wow where you actually need "good" DPS, what you need is adequate DPS and anything more is just a slight bonus, it's only real purpose is to push yourself up the damage meters. This Blood DPS spec is perfectly adequate.

It doesnt matter if you're doing 30k or 40k DPS, if you and your group are competent you will kill the boss regardless.

So if you can play in a strange way that you like while still maintaining enough DPS there is no reason why you shouldn't. It's not really any different than Demo Locks tanking in Wrath; sure its not as good as a proper tank but if it works what's the problem?

[MisterSoup]

Long story short, Blood's damage output is built around having stacks of Vengeance. And even then, it's balanced around threat and the Blood spec's mastery shield - not for throughput DPS.

Yes, you "can" deal damage as Blood DPS. You really, really shouldn't bother, though. It would be like having your feral druid DPS in bear form instead of cat - or even worse, having a Prot warrior try to DPS.

[Deleted]

I've looked over your spec, and imo, you could do more dps by taking the points out of On a Pale Horse and Icy Reach(you have 100% uptime on diseases with outbreak?!), then putting 3 of them into Virulence and the last one into Morbidity (Or maybe 2 in each). Not crunched any numbers, but the points you have in the frost tree other than RPM provide zero dps benefit, and RPM isn't much of a benefit if you aren't holding 100+ RP for DS's gunna check the spec out on my dk in his dps gear(ilvl 395) and see what it's like, I'll probably still prefer UH :P

[Cereyeth]

I miss blood dps. I was blood during WOTLK and took a ton of flak from players for it but I was putting up huge numbers, especially with tons of armor pen and Deathbringer's Will.

[Catharlex]

I miss blood dps. I was blood during WOTLK and took a ton of flak from players for it but I was putting up huge numbers, especially with tons of armor pen and Deathbringer's Will.

Why would you have taken Flak for it? It was perfectly viable in Wrath. Heck, my raid group back then had a blood DK (though he was forced to feed me Hysteria as a Frost)

[Gratlim]

As a 64 blood DK twink i feel you about the dungeon part and players calling you s**it / you noob etc when you dps as blood and double their damage. Go figure. I guess they forgot blood was a dps spec and frost was the tank spec back then :s