How Difficult Should Heroic Dungeons Be?

[Vayshan]

That is no longer the case. Blizzard has turned heroic dungeons into what was a challenge to something that people should be able to finish in their lunch. With the addition of the dungeon finder, Blizzard has completely changed how heroic dungeons work in this game. They are no longer supposed to be a challenge because of how easily accessible they are.

So basically what I'm saying is that LFD Heroic Dungeons should be on par with the difficulty of LFR Raids due to the wide amount of people that have access to them, and more specifically, the 'under performers' of this game.

Under performers don't need to heroic dungeons. They can be content with the normals. Why give better gear to scrubs who don't know how to use it? Don't give me that 'they pay the same sub fee like anyone else' crap plz... just like anyone else, they get the same oppertunities and tools. If they lack the will or brain to make use of them, it's their own fault.

[Deleted]

Harder than ever before.

[Deleted]

I want 15-25 minute heroics with high succes rate in a pug.
Heroic raids and the new Challenge mode dungeons will be great for challenging one self, but heroic dungeons just need to be quick and relaxed.

[Speedy92286]

If LFR is easier than heroics, that is a little silly.

It should be:

Normal 5-man>5-man>heroic>BH=LFR>Normal Raid>>>Heroic Raid

[Deleted]

Under performers don't need to heroic dungeons. They can be content with the normals. Why give better gear to scrubs who don't know how to use it? Don't give me that 'they pay the same sub fee like anyone else' crap plz... just like anyone else, they get the same oppertunities and tools. If they lack the will or brain, it's their own fault.

You sound awfully bitter over nothing.

[Nosonia]

normal raids and heroics dungeons giving same loot?? WTF??? people are really getting silly now..

Raiding isn't really that hard, nor does it require TONS of time... 6 hours a week and you can raid... I bet most of you spend more time watching TV then that...

Normal Dungeons > Heroic Dungeons > LFR > Normal Raids > Hardmodes

Dungeons should NEVER give better loot then raids (4.3 giving better loot then 4.0 raids for example)... and should only give JP and only a small amount of it (3-4 weeks of heroics for ONLY 1 piece of loot, and that loot should be 1-2 tiers behind)...

[cFortyfive]

Not sure - sort of depends. I always thought that the quality of the rewards gained should reflect the difficulty of the encounters. With that in mind I do think that the difficulty post all the nerfs is actually fine with the existence of lfr. Is that the right approach though ? I personally doubt it and it certainly isn't something I enjoy.

[Deleted]

If LFR is easier than heroics, that is a little silly.

It should be:

Normal 5-man>5-man>heroic>BH=LFR>Normal Raid>>>Heroic Raid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
This applies very well to random groups.

[Conscious]

I'm sorry, but there is nothing remotely 'heroic' about the heroics we've got currently. They're 'heroics' in name only imo.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

I personally don't think heroics should be hard. That's what heroic raids are for.

[Deleted]

normal raids and heroics dungeons giving same loot?? WTF??? people are really getting silly now..

Raiding isn't really that hard, nor does it require TONS of time... 6 hours a week and you can raid... I bet most of you spend more time watching TV then that...

Normal Dungeons > Heroic Dungeons > LFR > Normal Raids > Hardmodes

Dungeons should NEVER give better loot then raids (4.3 giving better loot then 4.0 raids for example)... and should only give JP and only a small amount of it (3-4 weeks of heroics for ONLY 1 piece of loot, and that loot should be 1-2 tiers behind)...

It's not a hardcore game and never will be. You can dream all you want, but you won't have much luck showing off with your skills in WoW.

[Tarien]

I'm pretty sure that's your own conjecture.

Nope:

normal raid>heroic dangeon (shares the same loot table from stats perspective minus few items)

Seems fairly clear to me.

[Simulacrum]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
This applies very well to random groups.

Cool non sequitur? I can't remember the last time I was in a 5 man where someone didn't take charge (if it was neded), with the same applying to LFR. Usually people are falling over themselves trying to take charge.

[Firebert]

No one is forced to split into five, you would just do dungeons during off hours when no raids are scheduled or there are only a few online.

Guild: "Yay! We cleared Normal Dragon Soul 25! Now, we need to get keep everyone progressing, so, let's all go into the Hour of Twilight Heroics!"
MT/OT: "First/second dibs on group!"
The remaining four healers and 11 DPS: "WTF are we supposed to do, we couldn't get gear for offspec from the raid and now are undergeared for the heroics, GG"
*cue every remaining 25-man guild go 10-man due to most DPS and healers not being able to gear up in 25-man past Normal raids*

Treating Heroics above Normal Raiding will push Heroics out of reach of the standard LFDer, as their endgame is LFR. Heroics would become progression.

EDIT: You clearly don't understand. >_>

[Vayshan]

You sound awfully bitter over nothing.

It just bothers me that Blizzard castrates the game just to cater to the underperformers. By now they should simply remove the word 'Heroic' from any dungeon. We have "LOL-mode" and then "LOL-mode with a little more stuff going on so you might die once or twice more". Heroics should be punishing and brutal and not lunch time dungeons, run a normal or wait till you get home. I mean, why do all classes have all these abilities and spells if there is 0 need to use any. Why not dumb every class down to the level of an Arcane mage. Remove all but 1 actionbar from the game. That should bring it all on par with what is required to play "heroics".

[Nadev]

I had nightmares doing the normal modes of dungeons like Steamvaults, Shadow Labyrinth or Shattered Halls back in BC. I'm glad I never experienced BC heroics.

4.0 Heroics were awful; if you weren't a CC class, you had better pray you had a mage or hunter with you or your ass was kicked. Grim Batol is still nauseating with most pug groups.

I think 4.3 heroics are a little too easy (personally, I found them easier than most Wrath heroics as a fresh lv 80).

Somewhere between 3.0 and 3.3 heroics are my preference. Of course, Wrath is where my fondest memories of WoW are, so that might be the nostalgia talking. More important than difficulty for me is length. I love long dungeons like BRD and Halls of Origination fell well short of my expectations, so I hope MoP gives us one or two whoppers of a dungeon!

Vayshan: You want them in 333 blues running the same 5 dungeons for over a year, while you get new purples nearly 100 item levels higher 4 times a week? Get off your high horse.

[Tarien]

It's not a hardcore game and never will be. You can dream all you want, but you won't have much luck showing off with your skills in WoW.

It used to be, back when it was gaining millions of subs during Vanilla and TBC.

[Ineras]

Should they be extremely easy as in 3.0.1 / HoT?

The 3.0.1 dungeons weren't extremely easy when you didn't outgear them; I found them the same difficulty as Cata heroics first were. With that said I like the difficulty heroics had at the beginning of Wrath and Cata.

[Deleted]

It used to be, back when it was gaining millions of subs during Vanilla and TBC.

Not because it was a brand new MMO based on one of the most popular game series ever?
And no, it was not hardcore back then. Everything was easy but took a huge amount of time to achieve.

[strangebreed]

4.03 not extremely easy at first, but after a few months almost everyone could blow through them. Like it took people actually time to do when they first came out unlike in HoT's which almost everyone blew through without a wipe the first time in there.