How Difficult Should Heroic Dungeons Be?

[Pool of the Dead]

Man, I love how easily people forget stuff. The only viable tanking weapon for pallies were ones with spell power on them in TBC...

I don't see your point or relevance to what you quoted me saying?

[Deleted]

hmm obvs so hard that we wuld wipe over and over and over and over again in BIS gear end exspansion. (acording to some lol)

well imo just like wrath, just a little tad hard in the start (some wipes some just clear) was just fine imo.

[Chickat]

Between icc 5 man and HOT. If you want difficult do challenge modes or raid.

[Baharroth]

Why do people want BC heroics back so bad??

have you read the top comments and guides on Wowhead on these instances, saying that some of those take 2-3 hours (!) with an average group to complete.

I don't have that much time for just a few bosses and loot, do you?

[Pool of the Dead]

Why do people want BC heroics back so bad??

have you read the top comments and guides on Wowhead on these instances, saying that some of those take 2-3 hours (!) with an average group to complete.

I don't have that much time for just a few bosses and loot, do you?

Used to do a full clear of all heroics in TBC in less than 6hrs. People just want to believe they were harder then they actually were, when it just comes down too a lot of people did not play TBC that play now and only hear from oldschool players that try to sound cool by saying "back in my day Heroics were HARD!!"

[Snorkle]

Why do people want BC heroics back so bad??

have you read the top comments and guides on Wowhead on these instances, saying that some of those take 2-3 hours (!) with an average group to complete.

I don't have that much time for just a few bosses and loot, do you?

Why should time be a constraint that decides whether or not a feature should be implemented? Shouldn't blizzard try to please all their players? Why should they please only those that want something quick and easy?

I loved my first shattered halls heroic. We didn't complete it. It was still awesome. Very few moments in wow could feel like that. This is what I want in a game. A challenge, and feeling the progressive improvements while still feeling it is bloody hard. That adds to the fun.

In the opposite corner we have (for example) violet hold heroic, aka 15-20 minutes spamming the AOE button while watching TV or being on the phone, except when I went there with my main, in which case I had to pay attention so that I could SKIN THE MOBS. Yes, the skinning was the hardest and most challenging part.

Why? Why is this better? Fine, it's better for a subset of people, but not everyone. Why does wow gain from alienating one segment of their population, one segment that frankly is not as small as people might think.

Those that want difficulty aren't the 1 or 2% that clear the full content in heroic in 2 months. There's also people who would rather never SEE the full content and know it feels hard. There's people who will see the content eventually after a long time, but want it hard.

A challenge is not just what the most hardcore players want. There's many more people that do want that.

[VibrantViolet]

BC heroics. We have CC abilities, but they are hardly ever used anymore.

---------- Post added 2012-06-17 at 12:04 AM ----------

Used to do a full clear of all heroics in TBC in less than 6hrs. People just want to believe they were harder then they actually were, when it just comes down too a lot of people did not play TBC that play now and only hear from oldschool players that try to sound cool by saying "back in my day Heroics were HARD!!"

Heroics WERE hard. They were new, and gear wasn't as easy to get as it is now. We actually used CC in BC heroics. Once people started raiding, they weren't so hard anymore. They are a lot easier now, because gear is so much easier to obtain.

[espoire]

A range, with varying rewards. Would be cool if there were some 5mans at heroic-raid-difficulty, to offer an alternate PvE endgame to people who prefer very small groups, or just have shitty computers. Obviously, we also need the super-farmable ones to offer a way to gear up alts and give non-cutting-edge groups a way to gear up in the first place. When/if this happens - intentionally or not - the hard ones need to not be in the random dungeon queue; I'm sure everyone remembers the mess from the ICC 5mans being added to the random queue in WotLK.

[Squirreludecker]

Heroic Dungeons should be start to finish no more than 15-20 minutes. At current content, With appropriate gear. They are meant to be farmable. They should not be hard, they should not be tricky, they should not be "challenging", they should not require CC or advanced teamwork.

Just as "Hero Class" only means "Start at 55", "Heroic Dungeon" just means "Dungeons for Max Level players" with many of them having a lower level version as well.

[stomination]

Just scrap heroic dungeons. Its pointless now that they have the feeling of the regular dungeons.

[Aquamonkey]

Just scrap heroic dungeons. Its pointless now that they have the feeling of the regular dungeons.

Which is what they're doing for MoP. Challenge is the new Heroic, Heroic is the new "max level" dungeon.

[Spotnick]

In Burning Crusade, doing a heroic was like the raid for casuals. The problem now is they can't make it the same difficulty because LFR drops better loot, it would make dungeons pointless.

Challenge mode seems to be something interesting, but since there is really no gear dropping from this except skins for your gear that are worthless, it's something you do just to get the achievement then never go back on any other toon.

[Skulli]

IMO if people compare TBC heroics with WotLK or Cata, they should remember that the initial intention of heroics were to give max level players challening content outside of raiding.

In TBC the progression path wasnt normals -> heroics -> T4 ...
It was mor elike normals ->T4 + Heroics -> T5. So heroics were like part of the first raiding tier, at least when attunments were active.
Also the loottables reflected that a bit. The "normal" level 70 dungeons had the same loots as the heroic counterpart, except some epic drop, badges and later on gem drops.

Yes, the dungeons were sometimes long and such but that was the point. They were not intended to be a farmable spamfest. That changed though.
Challenge modes might be that what heroics were back then but i doubt it, since its with a timer and by desing still the same dungeon.

LFD would be good for those normal modes and the real heroic outside of it for manual formed groups.

[Deficineiron]

Why do people want BC heroics back so bad??

have you read the top comments and guides on Wowhead on these instances, saying that some of those take 2-3 hours (!) with an average group to complete.

I don't have that much time for just a few bosses and loot, do you?

I imagine players acclimated to 15 minute dungeon runs or whatever they are now find the way the game was when it had more subs worldwide and particularly more western subs a bit hard to fathom.

[Temp name]

if they aren't going to be hard, dont call them heroics

[WarpKnight]

I think they should be tougher than Cataclysm heroics were to begin with. Something along the lines of BC style.

Games are meant to be challenging, I find the PvE difficulty curve in this game to be absurd. Everything is stupidly easy until you hit heroic raiding. (Normal modes were appropriately challenging prior to Derp Soul, not anymore)

Of course, no longer will 'heroic' even exist outside the idea of a max-level dungeon so I suppose we've been given what we asked for. Instead of real loot, though, we're being given transmog armour.

[Deficineiron]

Used to do a full clear of all heroics in TBC in less than 6hrs. People just want to believe they were harder then they actually were, when it just comes down too a lot of people did not play TBC that play now and only hear from oldschool players that try to sound cool by saying "back in my day Heroics were HARD!!"

anyone who claims to have cleared all 15/16 bc heroics DURING bc in 6 hours is not only lying, but lying badly. Not even going to ask for a lockout screenshot. You don't sound like you ever played bc or know what a bc heroic was.

There may have been players who did all of them in a single 24 hour lockout by arranging groups ahead of time as part of an informal competition.

---------- Post added 2012-06-17 at 07:57 AM ----------

Sure you did, either with a prearranged group (probably guildies) who all played together often of after you and your group were fully geared from 25 man raiding. Without one of those 2 components you never did it, ever.

you are way too willing to believe him at all. pre-arranged and done in 24 hours? it may have been done during bc. 6 hours? not even a decent attempt to brag. Anyone who played the game at max level in bc knows this is just a very big lie, like those guys who claim to be medal of honor recipients or whatever.

---------- Post added 2012-06-17 at 08:01 AM ----------

In TBC the progression path wasnt normals -> heroics -> T4 ...

I would argue that a number of heroics weren't really doable even by a reasonably skilled group in kara gear. - black morass durnholde? maybe gruul/mag t4 would tip the balance. Kara was as a whole, at least by late 2.1 when i got there, easier than the harder heroics.

Sometimes I see people write that heroic bm was req. to get the kara key and it is laughable. If that had been the case, no one would have been attuned. it would have created an attunement run black market.

[Deleted]

anyone who claims to have cleared all 15/16 bc heroics DURING bc in 6 hours is not only lying, but lying badly. Not even going to ask for a lockout screenshot. You don't sound like you ever played bc or know what a bc heroic was.

I remember there being a thread on EU forums about BC speed clears. IIRC the fastest run as 10ish hours.
Thought it was pretty late into exp -> outgear

[TaurenNinja]

There should always be a super-hard mode.
I like challenge, and I also like 5man. But they're all too easy currently so there's no point in running 5man if you like challenge. You're forced to raid HC or PvP. So there's 1 type of content that's completely uninteresting. Which is sad.
I have high hopes for the Challenge Modes in MoP, because it will allow me to group up with 4 other good players and really have something "to do" in a 5man dungeon. It's not perfect, because I'd rather have a high-difficulty instance by itself, but a timerun is better than nothing.

It's sad though that 5man regularly can't be hard because they're always a stepping-stone into normal mode raiding, which is supposed to be relatively easy as well - so 5mans have to be even easier in order for people to gear up for raiding.

[Cows For Life]

I would argue that a number of heroics weren't really doable even by a reasonably skilled group in kara gear. - black morass durnholde? maybe gruul/mag t4 would tip the balance. Kara was as a whole, at least by late 2.1 when i got there, easier than the harder heroics.

T4 was required for several of the heroics because they were used for T5 raid attunements.

SL and SH took forever because of the sheer amount of trash mobs meant to "challenge" people who were already raiding.

Remember the melee crushing orcs in Blood Furnace? Or even the felguards...

TBC is where you'd look for bad design.