My guild needs help- 10 v 25

[Reverde]

Hello there,

My name is Reverde and I come from The Unforsaken of Tanaris. We are 4/8 heroic and consider ourselves a casual raiding guild. The structure of our current raid teams fluctuates a fair bit, but we currently do 10m raiding. There has recently been a push for 25 man raiding in preparation for MoP, but there's a lot of debate over 10 or 25.

My opinion is that a 25 would bring people together better. We aren't all that unified right now and I felt like a 25 would bring people together better than 4 to 6 separate 10 mans, many of which are alts.

I will go into greater detail upon request, but I just wanted some opinions: is 25 man worth the changeover for a guild like The Unforsaken?

Thanks,

[Rodpad]

If you're only 4/8 Heroic at this stage then I doubt you'll get the raiders you need to fill the extra spots in 25 man to get the same kind of progress.

Personally I find 10 man much more intimate and meaningful than 25 man.

Everybody's different though.

[Reverde]

If you're only 4/8 Heroic at this stage then I doubt you'll get the raiders you need to fill the extra spots in 25 man.

Sorry, I suppose I should have been a bit more clear on that, it's not one group with 4/8H progression, it's 4 different ones. There's no question of recruiting, it's only whether to consolidate those 4 down (like I said, with alts and computer issues removed from the equation we have 25 solid players who could fill the spots) into one 25 man and then do 10m alt runs.

Hope this clarified.

[Deja Thoris]

The first step in finding out if this is viable is asking the people that would be affected.

It might be the case that half of them dont have the desire, computer or connections to raid 25's.

We have no idea of your group dynamics. It could be one raid team is a teenagers one and the other all over 30's. Do you think that will create a cohesive and fun raid environment when you get the all together?

Short version is we can't weigh up all the factors and if you want to make this change the first place to start is asking your own peeps.

[Rodpad]

Ah I see, in which case things look slightly different. I'd suggest going 25 man all week, then at the end of the week the "A" team tries out a new boss on 10 man. Good players don't enjoy carrying others in 25 mans and will eventually splinter off unless they feel rewarded for their efforts, hence the 10 man night at the end of the week.

This is obviously quite tricky to do once you start hitting heroics as you can't change the Heroic raid size once you've killed a Heroic boss (something that really needs to change in my opinion, but I digress). It's certainly something you can trial at the start of MoP.

Good luck!

Edit: Also Deja brings up some very valid points too. Do you have more to lose or more to gain by doing this? You really need everybody on board for such a drastic change to work.

[Reverde]

Deja,

A fair assessment. When I say there are 25 members remaining from 4 10 man teams, those are the people who have competent machines, and a desire to play together. One thing I am most curious about (since I havent done a 25 since before LK was nerfed) is are 25's more or less forgiving? I hear both answers, but seeing as how by and large Tanaris as a server is a bunch of incompetent 3 year olds on their parent's computers, opinion there is taken with a grain of salt.

Tonight's a guild meeting and since it was my idea to make this change occur, I wanted to get as much outside opinion as possible.

Rod,

I don't get how we could have an "A" team, as you put it, try an additional boss on heroic mode without removing them from the 25. Many of our best players are one toon kind of people, so going at it with our best foot forward in a 10 man progression would complicate matters infinitely. Please elaborate.

Thanks all for the help. We aren't leet, nor are we looking to be. The Unforsaken is a bunch of people that have to balance lives with gaming, so please don't be condescending because we are "only" 4/8.

[Deleted]

Running 1 25m makes more sense to me than running four 10m raids. You need two things in order to do this right:

1) Good leadership and organization. Not sure how 3 of your current raid leaders will feel about giving up control, not to mention you'll need to decide on an efficient and drama-free loot system for 25 people. You'll need the good leadership and a firm hand in order to consolidate multiple raids into one big raid and make everyone settle down in their new pecking order.

2) 25 people of relatively equal skill. You claim to already have this and I hope for your sake you're right because carrying people is never fun.

If you have both of those then by all means go ahead and switch. Don't underestimate how difficult either of these things is though.

[laimer]

I hear both answers, but seeing as how by and large Tanaris as a server is a bunch of incompetent 3 year olds on their parent's computers, opinion there is taken with a grain of salt.

[Dyart]

It is not yet known how the raid system works in MoP, why you want to form 25man "in preparation for MoP"?

Also, you will most likely experience some setback trying to switch to 25man. In general 25man heroic is more difficult than 10man, not only in the encounter difficulty, but various other factors.

[Grumash]

...you will most likely experience some setback trying to switch to 25man. In general 25man heroic is more difficult than 10man, not only in the encounter difficulty, but various other factors.

This is right on the money. My guild is a 25m who had a 10m break off at the start of DS, leaving us to recruit 10 people. One of the largest challenges is fielding a full 25 people every week, because someone will almost always have to miss, or wont show up etc. because 25m raiders tend to feel more of a 'oh other people can cover for me' feel than in 10m. I would say a solid 25m guild would need 27 or so raiders who will make 90% of raids, or else there will be nights where you are missing people, and it can hurt progression. My guild is currently 5/8h and our biggest hangups have been not having a full 25 people, especially on our last raid night of the week, thursday.

Forming a 25 out of 40 people means one of the 10m will likely stay a 10m, or will scrape together players from the other 10s that didnt go to the 25, but also leaves 5 people out. Not to mention with 4 10m you have 4 main tanks and 4 dps/healers with a tank offset, and you only need 2 of these 8 (6 if you consider a 10 still sticking around after this). What if they dont want to dps or heal mainspec? Same idea with healers.

If you can make it work, and the biggest problem would obviously being the logistics of such a change, I find 25m to be much more rewarding than 10m, 10m to me feels like a dungeon, and 25 feels like a raid.

[Deleted]

We re also at 4/8 heroic 10 with 2 groups and an alt run per week going, we used to be 25 ppl guild :S.

I missed those days a lot, but i kept the roster to be just enough for those 2 seperate 10 man groups.
With the numbers you have, and by being a 4/8 guild as well, maybe 4/8 is the right spot for a change at least to push the hagara kill and the Warmaster kill.
I ve seen that those fights are easier in the large size.

Do that only if the members of your groups are close enough on skill though, and not if you have lets say one group with 4/8 one with 2/8 and the rest with 1/8 or less.
In that case, converting to 25 will punish you with less progress.

Also it would have been wise not to disturb your guild's habbits right now.

We re waiting for the final announcement from Blizzard regarding the raiding model in "Mists".

See what they have to say, and then decide

[Trikolas]

Is 25man easier these days than 10man all things considered?

[Dyart]

Is 25man easier these days than 10man all things considered?

Consider only the encounter difficulty, they are close, with some bosses easier in 25man and some bosses easier in 10man. Overall, 25man is still a little more difficult because the strategy for 25 person can be more complicated, but the difference is not significant compared to Fireland.

But if you consider the difficulty in other factors like organization, internet status, and especially recruiting..Then 25man is much more difficult than 10man without any question.

[Reverde]

Thank you all for the advice! We had an officer meeting to discuss what each group wanted to do, and 3 of the 4 were firmly behind a 25 man. Looks like its happening, but my concern has now shifted to the remaining group splintering off entirely. Politics in guild isn't ever a fun game to play, but I hope things can work out well.

Regards,

Reverde

[Cyros]

Im in a 25 man casual raiding/social guild, 3/8 HC atm, and i can say its really a pain sometimes to get the grp going, also, DS have been alot "bring the class, not the player" in hardmodes, for example 15 soakers needed for ultrax hc, and u need quite a few "ball bouncers" on warlord etc...
Our guild got maby 15-18 good ppl, and then we have to fill up the raid with less performing players.
I belive the hardest thing with 25 man raiding is to actually get the grp going!
Ofc it can be hard to explain and to execute tactics in 25 man, esp for us, with some players that aren't that great really. (just to fill the raid).
It is however alot more fun imo! feels more epic, and more rewarding, and ofc the benefit of playing with more ppl from your guild!

Good luck!

My tip to you is recruit, recruit, recruit! and make sure you have a good raidleader

[Rätti]

The game needs more 25man guilds and it definitely feels a lot different to 10man in terms of community etc. Just keep in mind that you might go a bit backwards with progress etc. when switching, because the fights arent tuned even nearly the same way on 25man.