MoP Beta : (PART 2) Prot Warriors, Strengths vs Weaknesses

[Pua]

Sorry, kopcap, I lost tracking on this for some weird reason.

Magic reduction is a preventive mechanic, it can't be wasted by definition. You always know when you are going to use it and what you are going to use it for. For as much as I'd want the absorb to stack too, it is capped by rage intake. Don't forget that chaining 2 absorbs into a 2 sec windows comes at a cost of 12 seconds without a SB.

Couple of things.

1) When I said “wasted”, I meant you can’t overlap Shield Block or the old Shield Barrier; there’s no point. Also, after the magical nuke, the remaining duration of 25% less magical DR is doing nothing.

2) “You always know when you are going to use it and what you are going to use it for” is exactly why the developers don’t like it. As players, sure, it looks attractive – but the developers are looking for something with choice and a bit more depth than the previous system.

3) I’m aware that chaining absorbs leaves you without Shield Block, but it doesn’t have to. You can build a decent absorb up BEFORE the spike we’re talking about, then still have Shield Block up for it; so say you pool to 100 rage, use the new Barrier prior to the pounding, then use Shield Block. That’s planning ahead and making a decision, and it’s more compelling than the old Shield Barrier because you can do that with physical spikes that otherwise can’t be blocked (the aforementioned Focused Assault or Impale).

Yes, those mechanics are design issues and not class issues but if warriors have a way of managing them, they can stay in the game more safely.

That's not a virtue, that's an issue imo. Think about it from a balance standpoint. We already have SBlock which is an extremely powerful antimelee mechanic. Melee is already the least of our concerns. Giving us a powerful absorb would make us broken. They can only give us a half-assed one like the one we see now, neither here nor there. You know a mechanic is a joke when two previous xpac trinkets trump it by almost two fold. A magic only CD has a higher chance of being more meaningful. I don't mind a 90k absorb either, I just know its never going to happen. Where as a 90k damage reduction from a 360k breath may.

From the design standpoint, I see no reason why the absorb can’t be 90k; death knights can already manage that, and remember, we’ve got to look beyond current itemization.

The other important point to note about this is that it’s very likely the new Shield Barrier will be buffed by mastery once it’s tuned properly. I say this because the paladin mastery now affects both their block value AND Word of Glory (via Bastion of Defence), which means warriors are very likely to see the same treatment. Otherwise, it leaves mastery as a stat in the toilet and I can’t imagine that’s the way the developers want it to be.

[kopcap]

1) When I said “wasted”, I meant you can’t overlap Shield Block or the old Shield Barrier; there’s no point.

You can combine them. Works great so far.

Also, after the magical nuke, the remaining duration of 25% less magical DR is doing nothing.

Magic dmg is not always a nuke, ie Tetanus, Nuclear Blast, Void Bolt, etc. In fact, absorb is the one that is likely to be wasted because not all of boss magic abilities are on a timer, some of them are on a CD.

so say you pool to 100 rage, use the new Barrier prior to the pounding, then use Shield Block.

That's a two second windows between the two. Not a good plan to mitigate melee burst. Again, pls lets not talk about Focussed Assault, its design failure. Sure, a bubble may and will have its uses for melee too, I am just not overly concerned about these scenarios at all. Not at a cost of 25% magic reduction.

From the design standpoint, I see no reason why the absorb can’t be 90k; death knights can already manage that, and remember, we’ve got to look beyond current itemization.

Its because big absorbs were put in place to make up for the lack of a shield. You mix two together and it becomes silly. And you have not even heard from the PvP crowd yet.

The other important point to note about this is that it’s very likely the new Shield Barrier will be buffed by mastery once it’s tuned properly.

That would be a different story. If mastery buffed magic damage reduction on Sbar that would be sooooooo good.

[Pua]

You can combine them. Works great so far.

You can combine the new Shield Barrier with Shield Block, too. In fact, setting it up, it’s far better for the taunt-swap mechanic that’s been the only meaningful way tanks interact during an encounter for the past three years.

Magic dmg is not always a nuke, ie Tetanus, Nuclear Blast, Void Bolt, etc. In fact, absorb is the one that is likely to be wasted because not all of boss magic abilities are on a timer, some of them are on a CD.

I don’t think there’s really an argument to be had here. Every boss that has magical attacks also has physical (I think Gothik is the only exception, happy to be proven wrong) and I’d rather have something that mitigates both every six seconds, rather than one or the other.

That's a two second windows between the two. Not a good plan to mitigate melee burst. Again, pls lets not talk about Focussed Assault, its design failure. Sure, a bubble may and will have its uses for melee too, I am just not overly concerned about these scenarios at all. Not at a cost of 25% magic reduction.

But you can put the absorb up PRIOR to the damage, assuming you know when it’s coming. Then Shield Block is ready to go when required, too. To be honest, this is another no-contest because I’m not arguing that 25% magical DR is in any way “weak”. Just that the absorption has more utility and is a far more compelling option.

Its because big absorbs were put in place to make up for the lack of a shield. You mix two together and it becomes silly. And you have not even heard from the PvP crowd yet.

It depends on implementation, but DK’s can still stack shields way beyond 90k on live and warriors are unlikely to get to that level prior to level 90 (if at all). As for PvP, I see no reason why tanks shouldn’t be hard to kill. Again, this is purely a question of tuning.

That would be a different story. If mastery buffed magic damage reduction on Sbar that would be sooooooo good.

It’s hard to say exactly what way this will go but, the more I think about it, I think this is why the change was made – in order to attach it to mastery and keep it realistic.

Time will tell.

[kopcap]

You can combine the new Shield Barrier with Shield Block, too. In fact, setting it up, it’s far better for the taunt-swap mechanic that’s been the only meaningful way tanks interact during an encounter for the past three years.

What do tank swaps have to do with anything, esp magic related?

I don’t think there’s really an argument to be had here. Every boss that has magical attacks also has physical (I think Gothik is the only exception, happy to be proven wrong) and I’d rather have something that mitigates both every six seconds, rather than one or the other.

Problem is, it can not be as good in anything remotely similar to the current model, re: numbers discussed above.

But you can put the absorb up PRIOR to the damage, assuming you know when it’s coming. Then Shield Block is ready to go when required, too.

You can't. Most of the time, your absorb will get eaten on the next swing before you even get a chance to get SBlock up.

It depends on implementation, but DK’s can still stack shields way beyond 90k on live and warriors are unlikely to get to that level prior to level 90

They don't have shields. We don't have obscene absorbs.

Again, this is purely a question of tuning.

Warriors are not made for this sort of mechanic by design, we are a different class. Its a shame that Blizzard tries to homogenize everything in sight and kill any flavour.

[Pua]

You seem determined to make this argument go on for no real reason when it’s time to wrap it up.

What do tank swaps have to do with anything, esp magic related?

My very first post in this intercession discussed why the new Shield Barrier is more compelling, due to the fact it can be used on physical damage. One of its uses is putting up an absorb prior to taking your turn on the boss and still having Shield Block up, assuming a short preparation which is always possible on tank-swap fights.

Out of the 28 Cataclysm bosses, a full 50% of them had taunt-swap mechanics.

Problem is, it can not be as good in anything remotely similar to the current model, re: numbers discussed above.

The numbers debated have already proven that it’s in the realms of tuning given current itemization and I don’t see the point in debating future itemization because we don’t, as yet, know what it’s going to look like. Given that, and the fact I reckon the new barrier will be tied to mastery, makes it more interesting.

Please stop trying to whittle this down to an argument about what’s potentially more powerful. That was never the debate.

You can't. Most of the time, your absorb will get eaten on the next swing before you even get a chance to get SBlock up.

See above point about tank swaps and the dominance of them in current content. Additionally, I’ve spoken at length about the choice you have with the new Shield Barrier, a choice that doesn’t exist with the prior version.

They don't have shields. We don't have obscene absorbs.

The numbers quoted are not “obscene” by any stretch of the imagination.

Warriors are not made for this sort of mechanic by design, we are a different class. Its a shame that Blizzard tries to homogenize everything in sight and kill any flavour.

Warriors were not designed for the DK class to exist at all, yet here we are. Homogenization is an unfortunate necessity given the amount of screaming that goes on as soon as one class is viewed as better than another, under any circumstances.

It’s the case amongst tanks, healers and damage dealers; it even extends to roles within roles (single-target, AoE, cooldowns etc).

That ship has sailed and has nothing to do with which version of Shield Barrier is more compelling.

[kopcap]

My very first post in this intercession discussed why the new Shield Barrier is more compelling, due to the fact it can be used on physical damage. One of its uses is putting up an absorb prior to taking your turn on the boss and still having Shield Block up, assuming a short preparation which is always possible on tank-swap fights.

Out of the 28 Cataclysm bosses, a full 50% of them had taunt-swap mechanics.

It seems you are running out of arguments. The only fight in Cata where a warrior tank's life was in jeopardy on swap was Chimareon. Where as magic damage has traditionally been an issue on about everything else.

See above point about tank swaps and the dominance of them in current content. Additionally, I’ve spoken at length about the choice you have with the new Shield Barrier, a choice that doesn’t exist with the prior version.

There is just as much choice with the old SBar, you just tend to ignore it for some reason.

The numbers quoted are not “obscene” by any stretch of the imagination.

Perhaps because they are tuned for a class without a shield.

[Pua]

Okay, I’m done.

It seems you are running out of arguments. The only fight in Cata where a warrior tank's life was in jeopardy on swap was Chimareon. Where as magic damage has traditionally been an issue on about everything else.

I’m not sure what application of logic leads someone to state that the person not cutting sections out of posts is the one running out of arguments. Frankly, it’s bizarre.

/sigh

It’s a shame that you’ve felt the need to devolve a discussion with good potential into a typical Internet argument; “let’s paint extremes, boil every point down to my side of the fence, and say I’m right”.

Have you any idea how boring that is?

We’ve gone through this several times now and you’re stuck deliberately changing the goalposts to avoid just admitting that I had a valid point all along. We’ve went from a discussion about which version of Shield Barrier has more general utility to “yeah, well, who cares lol?”

There is just as much choice with the old SBar, you just tend to ignore it for some reason.

If I’m ignoring it, it’s because your statement is self-evidently false. Let me paint it more simply:

If Shield Block was removed from the game and all we had was the new and old Shield Barrier, which one would be more commonly useful?

Don’t even think about trying to flip the question to something else, it’s a simple choice between one or the other.

We both know the answer.

Perhaps because they are tuned for a class without a shield.

Okay, so, we’re going to ignore the whole line of commentary about current versus future itemization, the fact that the absorb can still be tuned, and the fact that mastery can play a part in balancing. Hell, you’ve even made the argument about the DK absorb when you know I was talking about warriors.

And why?

So you can avoid having to accept that someone who sees the game differently isn’t technically wrong. Alas, I don’t share your incessant need for everyone to agree with me and, thus, cannot relate to you. I’ve stated many, many reasons why I think the new Shield Barrier is more compelling than the old one, and you’ve yet to prove a single reason invalid.

I’m sorry, but you’ve sucked the life out of me in this debate. You’ve practically killed an erstwhile interesting discussion by behaving like a typically boorish Internet dullard.

Good day.

[kopcap]

We’ve gone through this several times now and you’re stuck deliberately changing the goalposts to avoid just admitting that I had a valid point all along. We’ve went from a discussion about which version of Shield Barrier has more general utility to “yeah, well, who cares lol?”

Utility? o.O

I started by saying that the new SBar was poor design based on two major grounds:

1) It makes stamina an OP stat.
2) It does not synergy with SBlock. In fact it devalues SBlock's efficiency.

Absorbs' utility was never in question. Its the price that we have to pay for it that bothers me.

If Shield Block was removed from the game and all we had was the new and old Shield Barrier, which one would be more commonly useful?
Don’t even think about trying to flip the question to something else, it’s a simple choice between one or the other.
We both know the answer.

But we aren't DKs. And its not getting removed. SBlock is a class defining ability.

Okay, so, we’re going to ignore the whole line of commentary about current versus future itemization, the fact that the absorb can still be tuned, and the fact that mastery can play a part in balancing. Hell, you’ve even made the argument about the DK absorb when you know I was talking about warriors.

I can't look into the future, I play with data that we have currently available. Not to mention that some of the issues I brought up earlier are not going away with no amount of tuning without redesigning the entire tanking model.

Stating that warriors may have DK style absorbs was not my argument, it was yours.

I’ve stated many, many reasons why I think the new Shield Barrier is more compelling than the old one, and you’ve yet to prove a single reason invalid.

"More" or "less" is a matter of judgement.

Saying that I did not provide any compelling counter examples is a lie.