2.2 UPDATED~ Arsenal Bounty Hunter: Are YOU Doing It Right?

[MattiasV]

I haven't ran the numbers, but odawgg has. Just relying information he posted earlier in this thread (or maybe it was on the swtor forums)

On dummy parses 2pc/2pc was about 1% dps increase over 4pc underworld, but will go up if there's target switching involved (ie more tracers).

Here is a link (he's since said 1% in favor of 2pc/2pc in other places, but in that post there are parses):

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20853741

[odawgg]

MattiasV how are you coming up with this information? Right now I'm see 2pc DG and 2 pc UW as a DPS loss. A 15% crit increase on Tracer Missile should show up as a hug DPS increase. Feel free to share your hard numbers and math with us.

Yeah see, here’s what happens. When you move away from the old 4pc, you essentially are adding 32 heat to your rotation. If you use Rail shot on cd, you’re using it 4 times per minute…4x8heat=32 heat. This means you need to cycle in about 2 more rapid shots per minute. This will also lower your overall usage of abilities such as TM/UL by a slight margin. But you are gaining about 32/64 aim depending on which of the new set bonus options you choose.

Now let’s take the 2pc/2pc under examination. You gain 15% to TM crit, your surge is roughly 67% at this point, 71% at BiS. So you’re gaining about 10% total damage to TM. If you’re like me and on a dummy TM accounts for 28-30% of your total damage, this means about a 3% total damage increase. You also gain about 32 aim which is about 6.5 bonus damage. Now factor in what I mentioned in the first paragraph and it comes out to about a 1% increase in total damage. And as Mat mentioned, the more prominent TM is in your rotation (i.e. target switching heavy fights), the more this option gains in value.

EDITED! had wrong info for total damage of Rail Shot, it's closer to 10%, not 16%.

Now let’s take the new 4pc. You gain 8% to rail shot. Again if you’re like me on my dummy, Rail shot accounts for about 10% of my total damage. Which means you’re looking at a roughly .8% damage boost plus another 6.5 bonus damage from mainstat.

So this tells me, new 4pc is pointless, but could be of use when the stat pool increases and/or BW decides to remove the 2pc/2pc option. You also need to factor in QoL. For a lot of players, the ease of managing heat from the old 4pc will offset any gain to the 2pc/2pc and surpass the new 4pc bonus.

[Requiem4aDr3am]

The answer is right there in the quote you replied to haha...Underworld Relic of Cerulean Nova is the new damage proc relic for Merc DPS. It deals energy damage instead of Kinetic, but still uses our tech crit.

And if you wouldn't mind elaborating on how you came to the conclusion of SA>BA? If you have any data to share, would be very helpful for the rest of us. Thanks!

Math check. I based it off if SA proc'd everytime it was available though. the BA if used on CD came out to much lower bonus dmg gain from power than SA even the arkanian version. BA came out to a gain of only like 33 bonus dmg if used on CD while UW SA came out to about 43 bonus dmg if proc'd everytime the internal cd is up. granted with SA i used optimal conditions of procing everytime its up but still SA is capable of more bonus dmg in the same amount of time than BA. even if you factor in a delay it comes out to 35-43 bonus dmg range so its still better. I used 120s as a base since thats the CD on the BA relic.

---------- Post added 2013-04-28 at 02:10 PM ----------

MattiasV how are you coming up with this information? Right now I'm see 2pc DG and 2 pc UW as a DPS loss. A 15% crit increase on Tracer Missile should show up as a hug DPS increase. Feel free to share your hard numbers and math with us.

Im seeing the same stuff as mattiasV. I'm getting a 30% increase crit rate to my TM instead of 15%. I have usually 60% crits to my TM during all fights sometimes even higher. So yes I am seeing higher dps with the 2 pc 2 pc setup. I posted a parse a while back that showed the breakdown during a bossfight.

---------- Post added 2013-04-28 at 02:13 PM ----------

Yeah see, here’s what happens. When you move away from the old 4pc, you essentially are adding 32 heat to your rotation. If you use Rail shot on cd, you’re using it 4 times per minute…4x8heat=32 heat. This means you need to cycle in about 2 more rapid shots per minute. This will also lower your overall usage of abilities such as TM/UL by a slight margin. But you are gaining about 32/64 aim depending on which of the new set bonus options you choose.

Now let’s take the 2pc/2pc under examination. You gain 15% to TM crit, your surge is roughly 67% at this point, 71% at BiS. So you’re gaining about 10% total damage to TM. If you’re like me and on a dummy TM accounts for 28-30% of your total damage, this means about a 3% total damage increase. You also gain about 32 aim which is about 6.5 bonus damage. Now factor in what I mentioned in the first paragraph and it comes out to about a 1% increase in total damage. And as Mat mentioned, the more prominent TM is in your rotation (i.e. target switching heavy fights), the more this option gains in value.

Now let’s take the new 4pc. You gain 8% to rail shot. Again if you’re like me on my dummy, Rail shot accounts for about 16% of my total damage. Which means you’re looking at a roughly 1.3% damage boost plus another 6.5 bonus damage from mainstat.

So this tells me, new 4pc is pointless, but could be of use when the stat pool increases and/or BW decides to remove the 2pc/2pc option. You also need to factor in QoL. For a lot of players, the ease of managing heat from the old 4pc will offset any gain to the 2pc/2pc and surpass the new 4pc bonus.

Don't forget with the 2 pc 2 pc and the new 4pc that because of the heat increase from RS that you will be using vent heat a little sooner. This gives us the 10% alacrity boost for a couple casts...end up squeezing in an extra attack or two per bossfight as a result.

[odawgg]

Math check. I based it off if SA proc'd everytime it was available though. the BA if used on CD came out to much lower bonus dmg gain from power than SA even the arkanian version. BA came out to a gain of only like 33 bonus dmg if used on CD while UW SA came out to about 43 bonus dmg if proc'd everytime the internal cd is up. granted with SA i used optimal conditions of procing everytime its up but still SA is capable of more bonus dmg in the same amount of time than BA. even if you factor in a delay it comes out to 35-43 bonus dmg range so its still better. I used 120s as a base since thats the CD on the BA relic.[COLOR="red"]

Ah ok, just a mathematical conclusion. I'm not sold on any math for the SA relic, but I'm also not saying it's worse than the BA. Just want to see it actually in action before drawing any conclusion as fact.

EDIT: Reason why is when my guildie tested the relic with his mara, he saw a considerable DPS loss. This doesn't prove anything for merc either, just a note that math and actual use can be quite different in situations like this.

[Forsedar]

So from what I'm reading... using the new 4pc is asinine? Because I like seeing 4/5 tier (lol)

[odawgg]

So from what I'm reading... using the new 4pc is asinine? Because I like seeing 4/5 tier (lol)

In terms of min/maxing...yes unfortunately so...been playing around with Keren's sim and have tried all 3 possibilities and as Keren has stated earlier in the thread...(old 4pc=new 4pc) < 2pc/2pc by about 30dps simulated.

[Forsedar]

In terms of min/maxing...yes unfortunately so...been playing around with Keren's sim and have tried all 3 possibilities and as Keren has stated earlier in the thread...(old 4pc=new 4pc) < 2pc/2pc by about 30dps simulated.

What's the DPS Error provided by the Sim? Also was his sim finally released?

[Keren]

not finally! It's a pre release I gave odawgg for beta testing. you have a link to that in your pn box, too!
I want to qualify my sim before I announce a open release. When I see that huch different to Firebug I'm just baffled and have to think that there are bugs

When you did a sim you can check the "attack breakdown" sheet to see min/max/ standard deviation / standard error...

[Hexing]

First I want to say that even though I am posting here for the first time, I've been supporting and following this thread closely for a long time. It's an invaluable place for mercenaries that strive for perfection, to share their experience and knowledge in the class and theorycrafting.

I am part of 16 man operations progression guild Disciples of Babylon on The Red Eclipse.


I. I did some parsing using different set bonus:

- 4 pcs Eliminator's Gear (15% TM crit chance, 8% RS dmg)
torparse.com/a/197631

- 2 pcs Eliminator's Gear + 2 pcs Rakata Eliminator's Gear (2 x 15% TM crit
chance) - I've swaped 2 lvl 69 armorings with 2 lvl 63 armorings
torparse.com/a/197669

I wasn't rly impressed by the difference in Tracer Missile crit between 2 logs. Sure the 2nd parse has higher dps but I don't think it's due to double set bonus. Of course these 2 parses may not be representative, and I read odawgg's reasoning after this, and it seems logical. Simulator would help us more here I believe. And about Rail Shot not being free, at first it was strange, but when u get used to rotation it goes smooth.


II. I made some tests to see how often SA relic procs with standard merc rotation. During these tests I used Conqueror Relic of Serendipitous Assault. Unfortunately I don't have PvE SA relic atm to see if it interferes with internal cooldown of Dread Guard Relic of Kinetic Tempest (which I am using atm) or Underworld Cerulean Nova when I get hands onto it. PvP relics don't share cd with anything.

Average time between SA effect procs = 22.802s (min = 20.219s, max = 28.61s)

According to this power per second will be:

Partisan SA = 125.89pps

Conqueror SA = 134.47pps

Arkanian SA = 163.21pps

Underworld SA = 176.74pps

For reference here are power per second values for Boundless Ages relic (MattiasV had posted this values earlier too):

Dread Guard BA = 134.5pps

Arkanian BA = 127.75pps

Underworld BA = 138.25pps

I have to stress again that I haven't tested this with PvE relics and they may behave differently! I don't believe that they do but can't be 100% sure



Aerro's BiS setup looks cool, 395 accuracy seems optimal which we will be getting from 5x 79 acc enhancements, implants and earpiece we will take surge. Now the pain of getting power/acc enhancements is other matter. :P

[Forsedar]

Approved your post, Hexing, so everyone should be able to see it now.

[Keren]

I've no excactly buff uptime calculations implemented in my sim, but I changed the inner cooldown for the CN proc relic from 4.5 up to 20 sec to see actual procc times for a 300 sec fight and got 12,32 proccs. thus multiplied by 6 and 550 for the Underworld SA relic we get ~135,52 power / 24.35 sec between proccs.

The BA is nearly same as good, but does reach that only if the fight lenghts does scale excactly to the long inner cooldown. For a 300 sec fight it provides only about ~127 power. BUT, BA does scale good with multitarget situations, burnphases, fight with dps-deadtime, transitions or short damage-multipliers. In a perfect world we would have both and decide from fight to fight..


btw:
"Decoy" is still buggy and does not prevent damage. "Energy Rebounder" however works wonder with peridic damage gains!

odawgg posted some nice opener:
"Power Surge(x2 from talent)+Tracer Missile"

this way you can move into position and your heat dissipation kicks in from the very first second!

[Forsedar]

this way you can move into position and your heat dissipation kicks in from the very first second!

I generally use Explosive Dart for that at the beginning so I can get stuff going as I run in... without having to worry about pulling threat immediately.

Generally I get a Tracer + Explosive Dart off before I'm into my position, and heat is never an issue at that point. After I just toss an Unload -> HSM -> PS TSO Fusion Missile -> Tracer -> Unload -> Net (and then whatever is off CD). Typically about 3600+ DPS at that point but only because of all of that burst.

[odawgg]

What's the DPS Error provided by the Sim? Also was his sim finally released?

I wanna say it was around 2.3 st error for the 1000 5min parses it simulated...i did another set of 1000 10min parses and the st error went down to roughly 1.5 and the difference between the 2 set bonuses was less, somewhere around 20-25.

[Keren]

he got one per PN ^^ however, you could also increase number of sims to get a lower st error - I get 4000 á 300s a 1.2 st error

[odawgg]

l

he got one per PN ^^ however, you could also increase number of sims to get a lower st error - I get 4000 á 300s a 1.2 st error

Ahhh, sorry Keren, guess I jumped the gun a little hehe. One other thing I'll just add from my simulations so far is the crit vs power argument. I'm noticing very very little difference between the all power build and adding 200-250 crit. Like 5-10 average dps difference.... Good to know that even though all power comes out on top, it's not a stat we necessarily have to "avoid like the plague". A lot of crit in Underworld pieces and it's ok to replace your dread gear with it until you get around to replacing them... And it's really no imminent rush to replace them... Focus on filling out 72s first.

[Forsedar]

Yeah, I only tell people to avoid crit because if you give them 5 inches, they'll take a mile. I know if I said "you can go a little crit" people will end up grabbing mostly crit in the end. Its all or nothing with the community, which I have learned. It was just easier for me to say "you get more DPS with all Power" (which isn't a lie).

[Syzyx]

I'm noticing that each version of the serendipitous assault relic will stack with each other as well.. They dont seem to share the same internal cooldown. Has any one done any tests with arkanian SA + UW SA at the same time?

I'm curious if their procs are indeed independent of each other and if thats the case... I wonder how worth while that would be :/

[Requiem4aDr3am]

I still havent gotten my UW SA relic but I can confirm that partisan and conq will both proc and also conq/partisan + Ark. Sometimes they even proc at the same time which is amazing.

[odawgg]

I still havent gotten my UW SA relic but I can confirm that partisan and conq will both proc and also conq/partisan + Ark. Sometimes they even proc at the same time which is amazing.

Good call, I'm going to test out the partisan SA so I can explore the logs and how it works. I tried some partisan ones, but only the damage proc relics (which suck and don't work well in unisen with PVE damage proc relics btw). I'll go spend my comms again and try out the Partisan SA, I assume it's available with comms?

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 11:24 PM ----------

I. I did some parsing using different set bonus:

- 4 pcs Eliminator's Gear (15% TM crit chance, 8% RS dmg)
torparse.com/a/197631

- 2 pcs Eliminator's Gear + 2 pcs Rakata Eliminator's Gear (2 x 15% TM crit
chance) - I've swaped 2 lvl 69 armorings with 2 lvl 63 armorings
torparse.com/a/197669

I wasn't rly impressed by the difference in Tracer Missile crit between 2 logs. Sure the 2nd parse has higher dps but I don't think it's due to double set bonus. Of course these 2 parses may not be representative, and I read odawgg's reasoning after this, and it seems logical. Simulator would help us more here I believe. And about Rail Shot not being free, at first it was strange, but when u get used to rotation it goes smooth.

I think this was an RNG thing for you, these are very short parses if you're trying to find an average.. You were like a combination of being way higher than average crit % for the 1st parse and way lower than average for the 2nd parse. Was just a coincedence on these 2 particular parses that were quite short considering the MASSIVE RNG mercs can be affected by.

If you do extended parses with both options you will see a 15% crit difference.

Edit: in fact, you can just sit there and spam TMs instead of bothering with your entire rotation if you just wanna verify the crit% difference.

[Keren]

A guildmate of mine said that the relic of serendipitous assault have separate procs and cooldowns for damage and heals. So he said that it can proc off a heal and then again off a damage spell without having to wait 20 seconds or whatever the cooldown is. So depending on class and roll it can be a very good relic. Healers can for example throw a DoT on the boss and continue to heal. Then he will get a higher proc uptime. I guess sentinels/marauders that heal themselves can also get double procs easy.

If that is right: Annihilation Marauders may be happy, but not that useful for us.

I'm noticing that each version of the serendipitous assault relic will stack with each other as well.. They dont seem to share the same internal cooldown. Has any one done any tests with arkanian SA + UW SA at the same time?

I'm curious if their procs are indeed independent of each other and if thats the case... I wonder how worth while that would be :/

However, I don't think we will be interested in double SA at all. As my sim suggested, even if I double the power gain and thus garantee that 1100 power (double underworld) that will be ~25 dps lower than with U CN damage proc relic. Not even when I double the procc time instead of double the power gain we get a higher result...

CN & SA = 2954,2
2x SA = 2928,5
12sec SA = 2921,3

Ranking for Relics:
Cerulean Nova
Elemental Transcendence
Serendipitous Assault == Boundless Ages

Though 2 procc damage relics are not possible to procc, everyone has to decide themself whether he like power on use or a absentmindedly power proc relic more. At the end the boss decide which one is more usefull!
SA is suited better for Dummy target fights without burn phases or down times like Cartel Warlords.
BA is for fights like Dash'Roode where you can nuke the adds away with even more power and have those move phases between where the cooldown can go by.
Every fight does have other requirements. The most competitive will just have both and change from fight to fight. The general advice though would be the SA - one less bottom to watch...