MOP Warrior Concerns.

[killabee]

So much negativity here.

My experience is quite the opposite. I really like the new Warrior, and specifically the new Arms. It just feels right. Pressing buttons actually feels meaningful. No more stupid stance restrictions on abilities, no more silly Rend, Execute that actually scares people again, priority system that is intuitive and fillers that fit perfectly between MS, nice talents that make you actually think which one to pick, Dragon Roar!, baseline B&T, improved Sweeping Strikes, Die by the Sword as Arms and on and on.... After playing Arms on Beta playing it on live feels like playing "with a pair of lead weights strapped to my legs, their weight so omnipresent that I had completely forgotten about them until they were removed" to quote the Warrior columnist from Wow Insider.

I have yet to raid on beta and I'm not event 90 yet, so I can not say anything about our performance in a raiding environment . Looking forward to see what the next balancing pass brings to Warriors and DKs.

[Tabartank]

Despite their inexperience with the warrior class I would have to say for now that this does not even look too far off for me.
Regarding the talent trees...I really liked the marauder from swtor. Maybe because I was not really into high end theorycrafting but each tree seemingly offered some neat utility.

The marauder was pretty fun to play. it had an awesome flow to it. Made me remember WotLK warriors

[Ochron]

So much negativity here.

My experience is quite the opposite. I really like the new Warrior, and specifically the new Arms. It just feels right. Pressing buttons actually feels meaningful. No more stupid stance restrictions on abilities, no more silly Rend, Execute that actually scares people again, priority system that is intuitive and fillers that fit perfectly between MS, nice talents that make you actually think which one to pick, Dragon Roar!, baseline B&T, improved Sweeping Strikes, Die by the Sword as Arms and on and on.... After playing Arms on Beta playing it on live feels like playing "with a pair of lead weights strapped to my legs, their weight so omnipresent that I had completely forgotten about them until they were removed" to quote the Warrior columnist from Wow Insider.

I have yet to raid on beta and I'm not event 90 yet, so I can not say anything about our performance in a raiding environment . Looking forward to see what the next balancing pass brings to Warriors and DKs.

I don't know what you're talking about. The current Arms rotation is phenomenal and the Beta one is complete garbage. I also don't know what you're talking about with all the choices since each tier has one talent that is going to be the best. Period. In the end, there will be no debating which one to pick.

Our raid performance is embarrassing. Especially coming from Dragon Soul. Warriors will be sat unless they balance us big time.

[Nobleshield]

I don't know what you're talking about. The current Arms rotation is phenomenal and the Beta one is complete garbage.

Opinions?

I also don't know what you're talking about with all the choices since each tier has one talent that is going to be the best. Period. In the end, there will be no debating which one to pick.

And we have a choice now, right? No we don't. Outside of some very very VERY subjective choices, we just use whatever spec EJ or whatever site now (Icy Veins?) says to use. What we have right now is the illusion of choice, and I for one am glad it's going away. We need less Fool's Gold choices to trick newbies and inexperienced players and the revamped talent systems make it so even with poor choices, a newbie isn't going to be penalized.

Our raid performance is embarrassing. Especially coming from Dragon Soul. Warriors will be sat unless they balance us big time.

Now this I disagree with. The only people sitting Warriors will be the top .05% of guilds that are rushing to world first, and those guys will bench anyone and anything that doesn't let them eke out every bit of performance.

[killabee]

I don't know what you're talking about. The current Arms rotation is phenomenal and the Beta one is complete garbage. I also don't know what you're talking about with all the choices since each tier has one talent that is going to be the best. Period. In the end, there will be no debating which one to pick.

Our raid performance is embarrassing. Especially coming from Dragon Soul. Warriors will be sat unless they balance us big time.

Please enlighten me what is so phenomenal about the current Arms rotation and what is so garbage about the beta one? Is it the extra filler between MS that makes the difference?

If you think you have a real choice what talents to chose right now you are delusional. As Arms for PvE you have what, 2 points to play with? In MOP you have more choice, I see perhaps two tiers with a remotely clear choice right now. At least those can be calculated. Even then it changes depending on the fight. The rest is situational.

Regarding the raid performance, could you provide some evidence? I couldn't find any recent parses.

[Asmalya]

Please enlighten me what is so phenomenal about the current Arms rotation and what is so garbage about the beta one? Is it the extra filler between MS that makes the difference?

If you think you have a real choice what talents to chose right now you are delusional. As Arms for PvE you have what, 2 points to play with? In MOP you have more choice, I see perhaps two tiers with a remotely clear choice right now. At least those can be calculated. Even then it changes depending on the fight. The rest is situational.

Regarding the raid performance, could you provide some evidence? I couldn't find any recent parses.

Then you didnt watch any raidstreams lately eh?
Or the latest simcraft.

Anyways the current arms rotation is exactly this. A rotation. You have always somethign to press you have your fixed role for HS (to burn too much rage not to compete with slam and then need to specc weird filler talents to have a button to press).
Rageflow is nicely enough to hit slam everytime.

All this is gone for some mechanic that goes against everything blizzard ever told us they want to have hs function as.

I dont know whats fun about emoty gcd but somehow blizzard must think it is...and i highly doubt its a good design to specc some talents just because you can fill rotationgasps.

This is coming from someone who always prefered the jumpyness of Fury over arms smoothenes but fury is even worse from a play feeling to me currently...

[Korgoth]

"Please enlighten me what is so phenomenal about the current Arms rotation and what is so garbage about the beta one? Is it the extra filler between MS that makes the difference?"

The live system never runs out of something to hit, abilities flow one into the other quickly, it never makes you watch random proccing buffs, and utilizes one Rage dump in HS. Every ability costs rage yet you use an ability at least every GCD, with HS added on top. LTTS was annoyance in pvp, but once stacked in PVE it didnt really matter.

The Beta system from my experience is slow, annoying, abilities build rage now but you are always running low if you want to actually attack every GCD. It's stupidly random with the TFB heroic strike procs, and annoyingly complicated because of them. There is no flow to it, it never feels like your gaining momentum with it, but rather its constantly jarring.


-TFB needs to lose the proc. Its stupid, its annoying, it forces us to watch buffs instead of playing.

-Slam needs to be a rage builder, not a consumer. We should never ever ever have an empty GCD, the rotation should be setup so the 3 main attacks fill every GCD, and Heroic Strike is used to turn rage into damage added on top.

-C Smash needs to be deleted as there is 0 chance of warriors being a tier 1 pvp class again while being held back by it. If PVE damage is balanced, then warriors in PVP will have less damage then other classes due to C Smash an integral part of our PVE rotation being nerfed in PVP. And its not like we have CC to fall back on. Put 100% arp on Slam, and buff MS to 300+% weapon damage like Obliterate.

-Execute needs a significant CD so that our damage isn't calculated based on a PVE Boss's last 20% of health. I'd put it at 30s, but making it do a huge chunk, like 100% of player health pre damage reduction (remember what armor and resil takes away before you type something stupid).

[Dragon Claws]

As someone who's tanked everything in Vanilla (did manage to clear Plaguewing Naxx40, before guild gave up and moved onto BC), to BC, to WotLK, and onward to Cata - I'm very disappointed with the beta in terms of Prot. Warrior changes. Some things just don't fit, or work at all.

I gave Blizzard a ton of time to improve things but I just see too many of these crappy changes going on live and it just....bothers me. I admit, I love some of the changes, but the rest just annoy me. Namely the limited ways of generating rage. If you can farm up to 60 Rage, then use Shield Block, you're good to go. But it's just that....struggle, from 0 to 60 is what annoys me. I basically have to Charge on cooldown now just to keep up the rage going from pull to pull to pull.

The Warbanner system is ....okay, but I feel kinda cheated.

[meathead]

"Please enlighten me what is so phenomenal about the current Arms rotation and what is so garbage about the beta one? Is it the extra filler between MS that makes the difference?"

The live system never runs out of something to hit, abilities flow one into the other quickly, it never makes you watch random proccing buffs, and utilizes one Rage dump in HS. Every ability costs rage yet you use an ability at least every GCD, with HS added on top. LTTS was annoyance in pvp, but once stacked in PVE it didnt really matter.

The Beta system from my experience is slow, annoying, abilities build rage now but you are always running low if you want to actually attack every GCD. It's stupidly random with the TFB heroic strike procs, and annoyingly complicated because of them. There is no flow to it, it never feels like your gaining momentum with it, but rather its constantly jarring.


-TFB needs to lose the proc. Its stupid, its annoying, it forces us to watch buffs instead of playing.

-Slam needs to be a rage builder, not a consumer. We should never ever ever have an empty GCD, the rotation should be setup so the 3 main attacks fill every GCD, and Heroic Strike is used to turn rage into damage added on top.

-C Smash needs to be deleted as there is 0 chance of warriors being a tier 1 pvp class again while being held back by it. If PVE damage is balanced, then warriors in PVP will have less damage then other classes due to C Smash an integral part of our PVE rotation being nerfed in PVP. And its not like we have CC to fall back on. Put 100% arp on Slam, and buff MS to 300+% weapon damage like Obliterate.

-Execute needs a significant CD so that our damage isn't calculated based on a PVE Boss's last 20% of health. I'd put it at 30s, but making it do a huge chunk, like 100% of player health pre damage reduction (remember what armor and resil takes away before you type something stupid).

i like what you said about slam becoming a rage builder and i agree CS needs to go.i disagree with execute needing a cd though.

[Opeth69]

Here's a repost from US side which pretty much sums up everything wrong with arms atm compared to live:
- Expertise is a weak stat.
- Haste is a weak stat.
- Arms AoE is weak.
- Overpower proccing itself feels bad.
- Overpower procs are aligned with Mortal Strike's cooldown (uninteresting rhythm).
- Overpower usage is rigid/inflexible.
- Overpower procs on dodges, can't be dodged/parried (weakens Expertise).
- Overpower does too little damage (feels weak).
- Slam being a rage dump feels bad.
- Heroic Strike being a combo-finisher feels bad.
- Execute being so powerful and spammable subverts the rotation when the target is below 20% health.
- Low rage generation feels bad.
- Low rage generation causes Battle/Commanding Shout to be used on cooldown.
- Low rage generation exacerbates Overpower's effect on Expertise.
- Low rage generation makes the following abilities prohibitively expensive: Sunder Armor; Hamstring; Shattering Throw; Impending Victory; Enraged Regeneration; Piercing Howl.

[Korgoth]

i like what you said about slam becoming a rage builder and i agree CS needs to go.i disagree with execute needing a cd though.

I want Execute to do its job in PVP, but with PVE balancing and no CD they then reduce our main ability damage to compensate for the high execute range damage. Which is actually worse for pvp then having execute weak. Putting a CD on it removes the PVE balancing concern, while making it the pvp tool I want. They don't seem willing to go back to letting warriors win every long sub 20% pve boss, so execute is hurting warriors and not helping.

[meathead]

I want Execute to do its job in PVP, but with PVE balancing and no CD they then reduce our main ability damage to compensate for the high execute range damage. Which is actually worse for pvp then having execute weak. Putting a CD on it removes the PVE balancing concern, while making it the pvp tool I want. They don't seem willing to go back to letting warriors win every long sub 20% pve boss, so execute is hurting warriors and not helping.

i may be wrong here but i do not think execute is the problem.blizz nerfed rage "again"thats how they are keeping warriors in check "along with #'s"i do not think you can just sit there and spam execute on a pve boss fight without running out of rage.no rage from damage taken = have to use rage builders at some point.

dks execute hits just as hard as ours and they are doing great dps above there execute range, correct?i think blizz is just straight up keeping our #s down atm to see how we turn out.we no longer have a ramp up time with lambs gone - +30% damage,so they will need to adjust #s to make up for that.as i said b4,we do need a #'s buff plain and simple,execute if fine as it is.

[killabee]

Then you didnt watch any raidstreams lately eh?
Or the latest simcraft.

Anyways the current arms rotation is exactly this. A rotation. You have always somethign to press you have your fixed role for HS (to burn too much rage not to compete with slam and then need to specc weird filler talents to have a button to press).
Rageflow is nicely enough to hit slam everytime.

All this is gone for some mechanic that goes against everything blizzard ever told us they want to have hs function as.

I dont know whats fun about emoty gcd but somehow blizzard must think it is...and i highly doubt its a good design to specc some talents just because you can fill rotationgasps.

This is coming from someone who always prefered the jumpyness of Fury over arms smoothenes but fury is even worse from a play feeling to me currently...

The latest Simcraft doesn't even have an official Warrior module yet and the unofficial one doesn't have DPS values for Arms. No, I haven't watched the streams.

As I said I have not raided yet on beta, but on a target dummy I am just not rage starved as Arms. Not only that, but I actually can afford to use HS much more frequently than I can on live. It may be the difference in gear at 85 with more crit and more rage from Enrage.

I believe I generated something like 30 rage every 4-6 seconds. That with MS, OP and CS being free and the former two being guaranteed. That leaves two open GCDs every 6 seconds. You generate enough rage for at least one Slam in that time, the other GCD is filled by OP procing OP, CS, DR/Shockwave.

I am sorry, but I just don't see the Warrior world coming to an end right now.

[Flaks]

I don't know how the hell in a million years you could possibly be ending up with more rage/HS on beta/PTR than on live. It's literally and mathematically impossible for this to be the case even if you're comparing full ilvl 502 MoP gearing to just ilvl 378 Cata gearing.

I'll take the word of theorycrafter #531 than random people who say "OMG ARMS FEELS AWESOME IDK WHY BUT IT GREAT". Case in point: the Warrior consolidated issues threads.

[Pua]

Case in point: the Warrior consolidated issues threads.

Which are being ignored.

[cFortyfive]

I am sorry, but I just don't see the Warrior world coming to an end right now.

I guess seeing a lot of posts on the dk forum means probably being used to shitty mechanics like RE invalidates your opinion for me.

Which are being ignored.

Well changes are coming !111!

[killabee]

I don't know how the hell in a million years you could possibly be ending up with more rage/HS on beta/PTR than on live. It's literally and mathematically impossible for this to be the case even if you're comparing full ilvl 502 MoP gearing to just ilvl 378 Cata gearing.

You came up with this misinterpretation on your own. I never said I generated more rage on beta than on live.

[LordSpaztic]

Which are being ignored.

Well, I've seemed to have had some luck posting in the BCBA thread...
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...?page=195#3882

..seriously..does he have a reading disability or only reads every 3rd word or some weird shit?
He even quoted the part that explained what "horrible" meant...

I'm wanting to post again, but having to sleep on it simply because anything I would type would be to rage filled. I also want him to "elaborate" more on why lowering the GCD / Ability Cooldown is such an obviously bad idea. Answer is probably some typical "don't want to confuse new people" and "other classes would qq, paladins would bitch that one of their mechanics is used for another class.". I see no harm in allowing certain CDs be affected by Haste as it would be A LOT more interesting to generating Rage than gaining 14 extra swings in the background that people probably won't even notice till some theorycrafter pointed it out.


Seriously, it doesn't harm or help the Warrior "kit", If I am faster I should be able to deliver more devastating and mortal strikes against an enemy more often...

You came up with this misinterpretation on your own. I never said I generated more rage on beta than on live.

As I said I have not raided yet on beta, but on a target dummy I am just not rage starved as Arms. Not only that, but I actually can afford to use HS much more frequently than I can on live. It may be the difference in gear at 85 with more crit and more rage from Enrage.

You can't use Heroic Strike very often on a Target Dummy on Live, only constant intake of damage enables frequent Heroic Strikes...Ergo: If you're using Heroic Strike "much more than live" on beta, You somehow have more rage. Which is as Flaks pointed out, is a mathematical impossibility as the Rage modifier dropped from 6.5 to 1.75, that's a massive dip, and to break it down you're only generating 12.6 rage per swing. Or you're simply replacing Heroic Strike for Slam and loosing a lot damage and dps, and leaving open GCDs...

[Asmalya]

I am sorry, but I just don't see the Warrior world coming to an end right now.

Noone runs around claiming the warrior world is going to end.
Besides from people worried about our damage (which still can be tuned so not a problem) the main focus i get from the thread is an growing dislike for the new mechanic / rotations blizzard wants us warriors to have.
And unlike damage, mechanic changes are not easy to implement.

Its ok for you if you like the new mechanic. I wont say your opinion is wrong since its an opinion.
But for me rage currently doesnt feel like it did before. And i dont seem to be alone.

[cFortyfive]

Seriously, it doesn't harm or help the Warrior "kit", If I am faster I should be able to deliver more devastating and mortal strikes against an enemy more often...

Mhh I do not know but I am not really terribly impressed with the paladin model to be whole honest. I would of course want a lower base cooldown of ms but I am not convinced of the crusader strike model.