Yes, yes, yes!

[Nienne]

So much Daniel Bryan in this thread, lol.

Yes! XD took the words right out my head. Lol

[Deleted]

Front page - GC

1) Sang Vein change to exclude hemo: Currently this SUB ONLY buff excluded hemo….which is SUB's REPLACEMENT for SS. I find it very odd that a spec specific buff would exclude the only spec specific bleed it has.
Honor Among Thieves generates a lot of combo points, so we think having multiple finishers is appropriate, so we want Rupture to be used in the rotation. Sang Vein being used only on Hemo, while convenient, meant Rupture could be skipped over easily. We understand that this has PvP ramifications and we're prepared to buff if necessary, which in this case I think is likely. Note that it is much harder for us to predict PvP damage compared to PvE damage, so it requires a lot more testing and player feedback. (Also note that most classes do have a significant gap between PvE and PvP damage, and that's fine.) We agree that Rupture would feel better as a button to push if it rewarded you with better damage. That's something we're looking at.

I'm left to wonder why they removed Recup out of our rotation just to compensate for the loss with something else. You want lots of finishers, why remove one then?

I'm also somewhat disappointed by the fact that they didn't take this opportunity to finally streamline and simplify the spec so it wouldn't have such a steep learning curve. Recup into SnD was a wonderful idea. Had they stayed with the original "SnD>Rupture>Evis"-rotation the spec would be so much more accessible and user friendly. Rather unfortunate they opt to go the other way around; "We're removing the only finisher that both boosts survivability and damage, and replacing it with a system that's not just gonna force you to chose between either your survivability or your damage in pvp, but also annihilating your target swapping in general."

So much for Sub becoming something other than a niche dps-spec for gimmicky fights.

[Resentful]

I'm left to wonder why they removed Recup out of our rotation just to compensate for the loss with something else. You want lots of finishers, why remove one then?

I'm also somewhat disappointed by the fact that they didn't take this opportunity to finally streamline and simplify the spec so it wouldn't have such a steep learning curve. Recup into SnD was a wonderful idea. Had they stayed with the original "SnD>Rupture>Evis"-rotation the spec would be so much more accessible and user friendly. Rather unfortunate they opt to go the other way around; "We're removing the only finisher that both boosts survivability and damage, and replacing it with something that's not just gonna gimp either your survivability or damage, but also annihilating your target swapping."

So much for Sub becoming something other than a niche dps-spec for gimmicky fights.

Simple, They wanted to simplify / Make the subly rotation easier as you've stated.

[shadowboy]

And that is exactly the problem, Combat will have insane sustained AoE damage as well as being able to cleave ridiculously well. Unless of course, the proc rate is terrible.

I'm personally already drooling over the new Fan of Knives changes, Deadly Poison not having to stack anymore and getting the ability Crimson Tempest.



Combat's cleave is insanely strong and by far the best in the game. I personally think the model we have now is completely OP and I would like to see a giant nerf to Blade Flurry.

The "OP cleave" is not exclusive to combat.

Sweeping Strikes for arms warrior on beta has no cooldown. The only limitation is the rage cost, which puts it very much on parity with blade flurry.

[Deleted]

Simple, They wanted to simplify / Make the subly rotation easier as you've stated.

But they haven't!

That's my point. The rotation remains the same, just less PvP friendly.
-Right now we have 3 finishers and 1 rolling free dot in Rupture. One of the finishers being Recuperate gives us quite a bit of self-sustain while increasing our DPS.
-The MOP rotation consists of 3 finishers, no self-sustain, and incredibly bad target swapping.

Essentially, they've removed the one thing that was FREE and substituted it with the Sanguinary Veins change, which every rogue seems to agree is one of the most unwelcome ideas since HFB. If they were aiming for simplification, they missed by a mile!

[Silent Earth]

I'm left to wonder why they removed Recup out of our rotation just to compensate for the loss with something else. You want lots of finishers, why remove one then?

I'd assume it was because Recuperate granting health AND energy return was too much of a good thing for the (relatively) low cost of a single finisher. I think the idea is to force the decision between a defensive (Recup - health) and offensive (SnD - energy) use of the combo points. Was this necessary? That remains to be seen.

[Wow]

I'd assume it was because Recuperate granting health AND energy return was too much of a good thing for the (relatively) low cost of a single finisher. I think the idea is to force the decision between a defensive (Recup - health) and offensive (SnD - energy) use of the combo points. Was this necessary? That remains to be seen.

Then theres leeching poison which is passive and does triple the healing recup does for us now in the same time frame (in pve).

[Evolixe]

To make Sub rogues stop getting it for free in PvP in MoP. As an alternative, just do a 1CP Rupture or CT. Problem solved.

Back to OP:
If you're talking about Combat, I'd love to have a reason to use Rupture in PvE. Maybe giving Rupture the chance to make Crimson Tempest proc? (ala instant Slam for Fury warriors) It'd turn Combat into full-fledged AoE monsters instead of "good at cleaving".

That is not true. The sole reason hemo is excluded is because they want to force sub rogues use rupture in their pve rotation.
The funny thing is that if you want to be a good sub rogue you already did that anyway...

A stupid and unnessecary change, imo.

[ambigiouslynamed]

rogues buff? not if every other class has a say in it

[Koji2k11]

i dont think they will ever change rupture in any way because it takes time and energy to do it .....

[Deleted]

Even if they don't change the damage. I wouldn't mind to be able to refresh the damn thing before it fell off. Please begone the days of "A more powerful spell is active".

[Evolixe]

Even if they don't change the damage. I wouldn't mind to be able to refresh the damn thing before it fell off. Please begone the days of "A more powerful spell is active".

Noob protection that fails in the hands of an understanding player. :/

[ophion1990]

Fixing much probably means "we'll find a way to make you use rupture even if it does crap damage".

Look at assassination, i think it will be something on the line.

Sub already gets a 25% damage increase for keeping it up in Beta (Not counting damage from rupture itself and the added hemo bleed). I think he actually meant buffing the skill itself tbh.

[Sicarius87]

i dont understand why people like daniel bryan so much. hes not that great of a wrestler. his matches are dull.

[Senka]

That is not true. The sole reason hemo is excluded is because they want to force sub rogues use rupture in their pve rotation.
The funny thing is that if you want to be a good sub rogue you already did that anyway...

A stupid and unnessecary change, imo.

No, that's just it. Right now the only reason Subtlety uses Rupture is because of the Serrated Blades talent. In MoP Beta Serrated Blades is gone. Rupture does not auto-refresh, so that's why Ghostcrawler was saying that Rogues would just not use Rupture even as Subtlety if they could just use Hemorrhage's bleed to trigger Sanguinary Vein.

However they want Subtlety to be a spec that uses its finishers because that's just how they want to design it. Basically, he was admitting that Rupture's damage is just too low for that, which EVERYONE should know by now.


I also hope this helps explain to that one guy earlier that was confused about Ghostcrawler saying "multiple finishers" for Subtlety. With a non auto-refreshing Rupture, Subtlety uses 3 finishers which is more than Assassination (Rupture, Envenom) or Combat (Slice and Dice, Eviscerate). I agree it may feel a little silly at first because on Live Subtlety also uses 3 finishers, but I think it just feels better to be using a 3rd damage finisher rather than a healing finisher for potential damage (which seems a little overpowered in PVP and just feels stupid in PVE).

Keep in mind Rupture's duration in Beta is much higher. It's 24 seconds for each spec at 5 Combo Points, going down by 4 secs per point, which means its 1P duration is the same as Live, but its 5P duration is 8 seconds longer than Live and 4 seconds longer than Live Glyphed.

[Koji2k11]

Eviscerate had damage and AP scaling increased by 45%.
Rupture had damage and AP scaling increased by 45%.
Shiv no longer awards 0 combo points.
Sinister Strike had damage and bonus damage increased by 50%.


Assassination

Dispatch had damage and bonus damage increased by 55%.
Envenom had damage and AP scaling increased by 48%.
Mutilate had damage and bonus damage increased by 54%.


Combat

Revealing Strike had damage increased by 60%.

there you have it be happy with this changes ....

[Nelavar]

We all know that is never going to make it to live.

It is just to good to be true.

[Avengerx]

Eviscerate had damage and AP scaling increased by 45%.
Rupture had damage and AP scaling increased by 45%.
Shiv no longer awards 0 combo points.
Sinister Strike had damage and bonus damage increased by 50%.


Assassination

Dispatch had damage and bonus damage increased by 55%.
Envenom had damage and AP scaling increased by 48%.
Mutilate had damage and bonus damage increased by 54%.


Combat

Revealing Strike had damage increased by 60%.

there you have it be happy with this changes ....

So erm as they stated that damage fine tuning will be the last step in class development, does this mean they think we are fine otherwise?

[Deleted]

Rupture had damage and AP scaling increased by 45%.

I never normally make immature comments. I came when i read that, literally.

[Timujingeo]

I can't see how that is ever going to go live given the amount of whining that usually accompanies even a slight rogue buff.
I think someone got their decimal points in the wrong place.

Eviscerate had damage and AP scaling increased by 45%.
Rupture had damage and AP scaling increased by 45%.
Shiv no longer awards 0 combo points.
Sinister Strike had damage and bonus damage increased by 50%.


Assassination

Dispatch had damage and bonus damage increased by 55%.
Envenom had damage and AP scaling increased by 48%.
Mutilate had damage and bonus damage increased by 54%.


Combat

Revealing Strike had damage increased by 60%.

there you have it be happy with this changes ....