[Megathread] Path of Exile

[Shaiandra]

I don't know the podcast to which Fencers is referring, but I personally agree with that sentiment because I'd say balance is typically not a critical factor in determining if you'll enjoy a game.

If you think of any games you've enjoyed that have multiple playable characters/classes, whether it's an ARPG like a Diablo, or MMORPG like WoW, or a fighting game, would you say it was perfectly balanced? I bet the answer would most likely be no. But that doesn't automatically mean it's bad; there are plenty of possible reasons why you may enjoy a game even if it's not balanced.

But if you were told that it were balanced or unbalanced before you tried it, do you think you would've had a better or worse impression? I can't say for certain, but I would imagine that having that knowledge beforehand would likely either decrease your impression of a game or at best keep it neutral, and never increase it.

Or alternatively, the first Street Fighter was perfectly balanced as it only had identical characters, but does that info help you judge it as being better than later Street Fighter games or any other 2d 1v1 fighter?

Thus, relating to Path of Exile, obviously not all builds are equal. Some may have an easier time than others, some may not work until you have certain uniques, some may be great for one thing but worse for another; all things you could've expected and not at all surprising. But are there tons of ways to build a character that can kill things in the endgame? Yes, and that's probably all you need to hear to consider giving the game a shot.

[Fencers]

Why is that wrong question to ask?

One would have no basis to judge what the design or gameplay intention of the game is without playing &/or knowing the mechanisms of the game.

Someone could have replied "Poison builds are very powerful, there are tons of them!" but the fella who asked the question earlier might not know enough about the game to reasonably judge that statement as the basis for play. It might be true, it probably is actually, but in what context?

Maybe you never touch the endgame. Or only play SSF. Or only leagues. Or compete on the ladder, etc.

Now that guy asked an even broader question earlier about builds, in a general sense. One might answer; A. Yes, many builds are viable (true) B. No, only a few are viable (also true) C. Depends on what you mean by viable (also, also true). He later clarified but the opening salvo if you will, was too broad.

[Aliven]

But if you were told that it were balanced or unbalanced before you tried it, do you think you would've had a better or worse impression? I can't say for certain, but I would imagine that having that knowledge beforehand would likely either decrease your impression of a game or at best keep it neutral, and never increase it.

Then we have do disagree. Knowing that game is balanced increase the appeal. Knowing the game is inbalanced seriously reduces it to the point i would not even bother wasting my time on it.

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One would have no basis to judge what the design or gameplay intention of the game is without playing &/or knowing the mechanisms of the game.

True, thats why people are asking other people who played the game to hear their opinions. And some flaws are seen from mile away.

I dont need to known anything about music to accept when successfull musician tell me "this flute is better in every possible way from that other flute". Because he knows.

[Shaiandra]

Then we have do disagree. Knowing that game is balanced increase the appeal. Knowing the game is inbalanced seriously reduces it to the point i would not even bother wasting my time on it.

Being told a game is imbalanced will lessen interest in it, yes. But what amount of balance would generate a positive impression? Nobody will tell you PoE is perfectly balanced; anyone who does so is lying. Decently balanced, maybe, but that's completely subjective.

Mind if I ask what games you've liked that have different characters/classes to choose from? Doesn't matter what genre, PvE or PvP.

For example, I loved Diablo II back in the day. If you were to ask anyone if the classes were balanced, I'm sure it'd be a resounding no.
I enjoyed World of Warcraft for 14 years. If you ask anyone if its classes are balanced, no one would say it perfectly was; some might say it was reasonably well balanced, others would argue that it wasn't well balanced.
I also consider Super Smash Bros. Melee (and also the first SSB) to be one of my favourite games. No one will tell you it's balanced either.

But all said, I like Path of Exile, and I'd rather encourage someone to try it than not try it. And the most (favourable) I can say is there are plenty of viable builds and you largely can play what you want. If I were to get into any more specifics and were to say things like "X is better than Y, though Y can finish the game just fine too", is that more likely to attract you or deter you?

[Fencers]

I dont need to known anything about music to accept when successfull musician tell me "this flute is better in every possible way from that other flute". Because he knows.

Oh, this is wrong. This is an appeal to authority. It's a kind of philosophical fallacy.

[Aliven]

Mind if I ask what games you've liked that have different characters/classes to choose from? Doesn't matter what genre, PvE or PvP.

Lol
D1/2/3
WoW
Grim Dawn

For example of course
And i know those were not balanced (as if supper balanced, even Chess and Go are not perfectly balanced) but they at least strive to be balanced. Lol is, for me, as close to perfect balance as possible, due to the ever shifting nature of tweaks, buff and nerfs. It is super hard task but worth it.

In wow there were times when certain classes were borderline unplayable in end game due to poor performance and times where every single one was in reasonable balance of 10% difference.

While i enjoyed every single on of them at times, PoE is diff beast. Game promotes super duper complexity and deep, build your own class and conquer everything. But if only 5% of those build are viable in end game then well, may as well just follow a guide and be done with it. The problems with respecs is one of the limiting factor, making build only, after 30-40h to see it is bad is simply not a fun experience for me.

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Oh, this is wrong. This is an appeal to authority. It's a kind of philosophical fallacy.

Yes, but we cant do our own research on every single topic so if profesional in a field with years of experience tell me something about that field i would believe him. Unless he previously show the lack of understanding in that field. Or there are contradictory information.

Also, appeal to authority is logicall fallacy when used as argument.

[Fencers]

Yes, but we cant do our own research on every single topic...

But one can play. That is the point of saying asking these sort of questions are a misguided notion.

Saying one is not going to bother with X or Y because so & so said it sucks is an argument and a fallacy.

[Shaiandra]

Okay, so as long as you're not expecting perfect balance, PoE probably can suffice. But given its systems, there might be thousands of ways to build correctly, and millions of ways to build incorrectly. You probably can make basically any skill work, with plenty of different ways to do so for each, but if you don't have any experience or a guide, I think you'll likely end up creating a character you're not happy with. (Though this is less a balance issue, but more a difficulty or complexity issue.)

Maybe a build will feel bad because you don't have enough passives in life or defenses. Maybe you do have a good amount of life passives, but your gear could use improvement. Maybe both of those are considered fine by others, but your speed or reaction time aren't as fast as you'd like. Maybe you feel that more speed would help you die less more than more EHP can. Maybe your EHP feels fine but damage seems lacking, possibly because you haven't built well.. or maybe you just have poor gear.

So, can you play basically any offensive skill you want and succeed with it? With sufficient game knowledge/experience, yes. First try, going in blind? I'd say very unlikely..

But for an actual tip in what makes a skill good or not, I'd say the more freedom you have in mobility, the easier. Short-ranged attacks or long cast/channel times will leave you more vulnerable.

[bloodwulf]

Outside of the first month of a league, speculation season is my favorite time.

This balance manifesto is going to likely hit like a truck.

My opinions:
Nerfs
Spectres nerfed due to DD. - GGG likes to nerf the wrong aspect of things all the time, i bet Spectres get the raw deal this go because of the power of DD.
Seismic Trap is for sure walking the plank this league. For its power level it was far too cheap to run.
Spell Suppression availability will be gutted. Far to easy to hit 100%, and it has become one of the simplest layers of defense to get.
Armor nerf. Right now basically everyone takes Determination\Banner and runs Molten Shell. Extremely cheap, and very powerful.
Further Triggered Ability nerfs. A lot of really powerful builds are trigger.
Speaking of really powerful triggered ability. Ward loop is dead. Not sure how they will do it, but ward loop is going out to pasture.
Further Aura Stacking nerfs. Probably a drastic decrease in reservation efficiency availability.
Cyclone, but not for any other reason other than GGG always hits cyclone when its not the problem.

As for buffs, as i do expect there to be some:
Trickster buffs. I think the ascendency will see some work as its lost a lot of its flavor lately.
Buffs to auras that don't get used as much, except in aura stacking cases. Namely Grace, Anger, and Haste.
Buffs to uniques (this is likely in relation to the league mechanic, as i suspect it has something to do with Unique items).

Other changes that might happen that don't fall into either directly:
I suspect we will have another league mechanic culled. If i was to pick, it would be Torment but not sure, because that one is very personal to Chris.
Major changes to some keystones in the atlas tree, such as the blue altars and the map sustain nodes.

Dream changes:
Make Strikes Great Again. I want Vaal Double Strike league again. Give me the boys back.
Nerf Harvest but make the crafts storable in an item like beast crafting.
Make Trickster the Cold Version of Chieftain with Evasion\ES styling. Make Occultist the Chaos Version.
Make self cast better. This likely requires a nerf to trigger, but id really like to see some sort of defensive that makes you tankier while casting a spell (not channeling).
Let double influenced items rarely drop naturally, say if we have Elder influencing a Conqueror map, we could rarely get a double influenced item.

[Fencers]

Hey, I just played Double Strike. It was okay and I had to give up a lot of offense to survive.

Make Trickster the Cold Version of Chieftain with Evasion\ES styling. Make Occultist the Chaos Version.

Love this.

[Edge-]

And give Trickster and Jugg another ascendency node. IIRC those two are the only two with 6 major nodes, everyone else (minus ascendent) has 7-8 options.

[bloodwulf]

Hey, I just played Double Strike. It was okay and I had to give up a lot of offense to survive.

Love this.

That was my experience. I could not make Double Strike feel good without feeling like I am made of paper. Honestly, i wish double strike acted similar the weapon off of Sirus, or hell like the anime trope where you hit so fast that it appears to be more than one of you.

As for my suggestion about Trickster and Occultist, right now i just cant justify playing a cold build trickster when occultist exists. And Lightning is typically the INT stat, not Cold. Id say removing the cold from the occultist ascendancy would allow them to buff the chaos.

And give Trickster and Jugg another ascendency node. IIRC those two are the only two with 6 major nodes, everyone else (minus ascendent) has 7-8 options.

I don't think i have ever counted before, but it looks like on the main site Trickster has 7 while Jugg does in fact only have 6.

[Edge-]

I don't think i have ever counted before, but it looks like on the main site Trickster has 7 while Jugg does in fact only have 6.

Ah, I always get it confused with Raider, which is the other one with only 6 major nodes.

[bloodwulf]

Ah, I always get it confused with Raider, which is the other one with only 6 major nodes.

Ranger as a whole needs some care. There are a lot of nodes in those ascendancies that you take because you have literally nothing better, and heck part of the pathfinder strengths with flasks can essentially be done with regular passive points and the flask enchant items now.

[Edge-]

Ranger as a whole needs some care. There are a lot of nodes in those ascendancies that you take because you have literally nothing better, and heck part of the pathfinder strengths with flasks can essentially be done with regular passive points and the flask enchant items now.

Yeah, the mastery update did kinda break some ascendency passives. The champion fortify node comes to mind. Like, sure you can take it and it grants easy Fortify access to a lot of builds that otherwise wouldn't have access it. But at the same time if you have any build that has access to Fortify nodes then the ascendency feels kinda...meh. Did that on my cyclone shockwave juggernaut, just took one of the damage clusters and then the mastery that grants 17 stacks on hit. Sure it's not always up, and sure I'm missing 3% less damage taken...but being able to change the build to move away from those two Fortify ascendency nodes and taking the two taunt nodes (solving my accuracy issues and giving me another layer for my defenses) was a no brainer. Would those 4 passives be better used elsewhere in theory? Sure. But would those 4 points offset the benefits of the taunt nodes? Hell no.

[bloodwulf]

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3292308

Yoooo. These changes sound good. And ironically hit on a lot of what i was thinking.

Trickster rework.
Arctic Armor buff could be a self cast buff.
Spell Suppression availability nerf.
Buffs to less common defenses.
Pathfinder buffs.

[Edge-]

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3292308

Manifesto is up. Super quick readthrough -

Spell suppression on gear getting nerfed hard.

Acrtic Armor and Sand Stance defensive buffs, yes.

Defiance banner nerfed pretty hard.

Ward restoration time nerf.

Grasping Mail 100% global defense mod halved.

Buffs to Blind nodes.

Minor Fortify buffs.

Minion base nerfs, with more minion mods added/buffed on gear so you get more minion power on gear.

Seems like an across the board damage nerf to a lot of minions in general.

Unnatural Strength (+2 minion skills) ascendency node nerfed hard, now grants Unholy Might.

Fire Trap nerf.

Minor buffs to cooldown based traps, nerfs to passives and advanced traps to nerf duration/recovery.

CAST ON DEATH NERFED TO THE GROUND, BABY

Bigger Trickster overhaul!

One new Jugg node...by splitting Unbreakable into two nodes.

Omnicience and Melding Flesh nerfed.

Lots of nerfs to reservation efficiency on the passive tree.

Damage recovered as life added to the mod pools for jewels.

I...can't say I'm super excited based off these notes, especially with the nerfs to defenses. Hopefully there are a decent number of buffs to underused/underperforming skills at least.

[bloodwulf]

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3292308
-snip-

Some of what you hit on was addressed in the hidden sections.

Spell Suppression on gear was nerfed yes, but the passives got buffed, so builds on the right side can still easily get 100%.

Ward restoration nerf was inevitable.

The Fortify buffs might be bigger than people think, depends on the changes on nodes.

The Jugg split is giving 40% increased life regen on the node now. And the Armor portion was meh anyways.

The minion nerfs sound big, but we now have minion shields and rings. So it might balance out, especially cause a lot of minion gems got some buffs.

Omnicience and Melding were inevitable but melding was not nerfed near enough to matter, you will be able to get 86% max res instead of 90%.

[Edge-]

Some of what you hit on was addressed in the hidden sections.

Spell Suppression on gear was nerfed yes, but the passives got buffed, so builds on the right side can still easily get 100%.

Ward restoration nerf was inevitable.

The Fortify buffs might be bigger than people think, depends on the changes on nodes.

The Jugg split is giving 40% increased life regen on the node now. And the Armor portion was meh anyways.

The minion nerfs sound big, but we now have minion shields and rings. So it might balance out, especially cause a lot of minion gems got some buffs.

Omnicience and Melding were inevitable but melding was not nerfed near enough to matter, you will be able to get 86% max res instead of 90%.

Spell suppression makes a bit of sense, and it at least makes it easier for dex characters to get it, but it honestly feels like the game is often balanced around the expectation that players have it. It was hardly "easy" to cap via gear alone for most builds, and required that you get T1 on every single piece...plus the other mods you need (res and stats for suffixes at least, plus any influence specific suffixes) so getting capped with remotely "good" gear was still a challenge. I remember trying it on my old crack lance character and...man it was kinda rough.

Jugg armor node honestly looks great, 8% of armor counting towards elemental hits? That's huge and would offset a lot of the damage that might not be mitigated by spell suppression.

Minion nerfs are fine by me honestly, necro/minions have needed a nerf for a long time since they've always been strong. Was just odd seeing some minion skills that aren't meta/super strong like Absolution included.

Honestly, it feels like they're focusing on the wrong things. They're focusing on raising the floor on defense in a lot of ways, vs. lowering the ceiling. How would they lower the ceiling? Honestly I don't have a good answer. But it just feels like they're making it more difficult to get the increasingly necessary baseline defenses that you need to make your build work at all vs. targeting the combinations people make that make builds insanely tanky : /

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https://clips.twitch.tv/ObeseBashful...fl5GiWtc-oGgKI

I'm kinda with Alkaizer with this. Unless there's a second part of the manifesto with tons of buffs, or the patch notes have tons of buffs not hinted at, this league feels like it's another "nerf players" league in general, again. I'm getting tired of constantly getting nerfed, bros. I've never been sweaty or super powerful/rich. I just wanna have a few more builds available to play that don't require me to invest 100ex to be strong enough to easily to semi-juiced maps and normal (not uber) endgame bosses and shit.

Really, the reservation changes are nice in a sense as reservation nodes and the 15% mastery were largely mandatory for builds, making it a non-choice, but at the same time simply nerfing mana reservation across the board lowers the power floor and makes it even more difficult for ye-average player to get strong initial builds while trying to build some currency and shit.

[Gorsameth]

Any defensive nerf in PoE feels like a bad thing. The game already HEAVILY suffers from random stuff killing you. Its not that everyone takes these defensive layers just because they are so easy to get, its because they are required to survive.

Playing without Determination, Spell Suppression, Defiance Banner and some form of boosted max res is just miserable.