Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

please don't do that, we all have eyes that function... no reason to blow up.

[anaxie]

just fascinating! i can't even express how invigorating these trinkets are! the possibilities of customization have just skyrocketed and the amount of different dps builds could arise from this astounding changes! someone help me, i have no idea where to even BEGIN on how to theorize how or what will even work or could even be allowed to happen!

WELL DONE BLIZZARD! IM PROUD OF YOU AFTER ALL THESE YEARS YOU HAVE DONE WHAT I COULD NOT EVEN IMAGINE POSSIBLE!

oh my, i may be having a seizure over how incredible these trinkets and future possibilities can come around now.

That's not entirely a good thing. We have always had 2-3 viable trinkets for different scenarios. Hell we have 3 this tier. Anyways the major concern that isn't to be excited about is the T15 potentially staying viable on encounters. Great design should have you EXCITED for your new tier. For DS? 20% damage ON ZEAL? I was so fucking exstatic. Then T14 what is this? 1:30 AW reduction?!!? <got nerfed to 1 min later>, T15 HOLY FUCKING TEMPLARS? When we all saw it we knew what it ment. Giant fucking damage. Current tier T16 I mean the cleave benefit on fights is obvious, but the ability is not exciting, it's not free and we know it comes at a huge cost compared to a prio bonus we just dropped. If I could have it my way it would of been the reverse give us Holy TV as the ultimate end bonus or follow history and make it baseline at a lower proc chance.

Having you hesitate to upgrade your gear is a TERRIBLE design there is literally no way to spin it.

This trinkets further the issue because now we are pulled away from talent choices and have EXTREMELY powerful trinkets that undeniably will be BIS <the CD reductions> that work against the function of the upcoming tier set. If the tier is to work we NEED DP. We are at a point where the bonus is ENTIRELY to significantly boost us on heavy AoE encounters. Single target? It's pretty pathetic and majority of the damage as "compensation" comes from the insanely stupid item level jumps that this expansion has seen between tiers. Bonus PLUS 30 item levels of HTF tier gear? which likely may have more sockets meaning bigger socket bonus's and potentially better stats TBD. It's not great design. If I got the DK bonus PILLAR increases my rune rate by 50% AND it synergizes with the CD trinket giving pillar a lower cd? I would be happy as fuck. We however do not get such a benefit nor excitement from our current situation.

I pray after this tier they NEVER try to fucking do a divine storm set ever again. I have no idea who is clamoring for one but they have no idea what actually works for the class to be making any wishlists.

Mark my words. if your raid leader has any common sense he will know divine storm is a weak and niche bonus. A bonus that is compltely fucking awful on most encounters by comparison to the actual previous tier. 556 is the new ilvl? you might wanna be prepared to need 2 heroiic/2 Normal or 4/4 Heroic 566 tier before swapping is even close to coming out DPS neutral single target after dropping T15. ESPECIALLY if you are able to get a 556/566 or TF weapon.

It's pretty clear cut n dry though that breaking 4 set before.... new 4 set is a no go move. That alone can put you DEAD last for all tier
drops. The slim chance we MIGHT be upgrading before those slots is if the new cloak proc is obtained fairly early for what I assume will equate to an additonal 7-10% single target damage <Perhaps truckloads more if EACH of the 6 procced hits procs seal of truth. This infact would make us very strong. Anyhow if this were to happen or if say. The items are lined with pure haste/mastery setups with minimal blue sockets and viable STRENGTH bonus's aka double the value of a shitastic rating bonus we may see some reason to upgrade far earlier at 4/4 normal.

Also I can't speak for any other ret here but I'm almost positive IN MY guild I'm going to be very high priority for the CD reduction trinket because not only is wings AND guardian and absurd damage boost. The survivability gained making me nighe unkillable having US AND additonal CD reduction AND devo at a lower CD will be a benefit. My raid leader loves Devotion aura. That alone will likely seal the trinket for me.

[thegoodrogue]

39% is correct for Normal according to an in-game screenshot, 17% I believe is for Challenge Modes. Mind Blown.

[anaxie]

39% is correct for Normal according to an in-game screenshot, 17% I believe is for Challenge Modes. Mind Blown.

Need to see if the 39% is HARD reduction or SoB formula based. It's the differnece between 50% heroic version being 1 min AW and 1:30 min AW. Pretty sure spending 50% of our DPS roation doing Hammer,CS,Hammer,TV is going to be broken. I GUESS one benfit is to assume that if T16 just turns out so fucking good atleast we can do Hammer, CS, Hammer, TV, Hammer, DS , Hammer, Filler , Hammer , TV. Or just pray to RNG your roation is filled with Hammers, DS, and TVS. If it works this way though it's pretty obvious how terrible DP is going to be nevermind the fact haveing 20% damage uptime go from 1/3 to 1/2 uptime is huge for dps on it's own.

Personally as stated before T15 doing Hammer, CS, Hammer , TV repeat is just so fluid and uses all stat resources <crit , haste, mastery> it feels just so.... right. To be doing this every minute. is a dream come true. Nevermind 50% uptime on wings It's pretty fucking likely majority of trinket procs will fall within that timeline in addition to every single ES cast.

[PetersenIII]

Having you hesitate to upgrade your gear is a TERRIBLE design there is literally no way to spin it.

There's a simple solution: nerf T15 into the ground. Pretty sure they've done this before with "OP" set bonuses. I'm fully expect them to do it again.

[thegoodrogue]

Don't worry guys, I am on a crusade to get the bonus changed. https://twitter.com/SkilldotcomBL/st...61930593161217

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Don't worry guys, I am on a crusade to get the bonus changed. https://twitter.com/SkilldotcomBL/st...61930593161217

Good Luck with that, everything they need to get into their thick skulls is that they can't limit a set "bonus" to only be a benefit in single target OR aoe situations.
Make the 4set proc Divine Storm do the same damage as a Templars Verdic + a Divine storm to the main target and then the regular DS damage to everything else, unless they do that you'll 100% see rets using old tier or no tier at all for single target fights.

[Reith]

Don't worry guys, I am on a crusade to get the bonus changed. https://twitter.com/SkilldotcomBL/st...61930593161217

There's nothing really that wrong with the new 4-set, it's just that T15 4-set is too good to give up for certain fights. Maybe they could make T16 4-set do more damage if it only hits 1-2 targets and maybe buffing the proc rate to 30%, but outside of that, I think buffing the damage it does overall even more would be a little too much.

[anaxie]

Frankly DS just needs more then 50% damage if this bonus is going to be a worthwhile button to press.

I'd go as far to say 100% damage instead of 50% but I feel like 75% would be a good starting point or dare I say the magic number.

Strangly enough Reiths solution is the best imo. It does 100% damage when it hits one target and drops to the 50% over 3. I however believe they are too lazy to balance to bonus this way despite it being the happy medium and best way to keep the bonus exciting and worthwhile while maintaining it as a DS proc bonus/ keeping aoe from being out of hand with the target limiter.

Again this would be a noticeable damage bump to the attack making it noitceably MORE then a templars verdict but nowhere near the damage of a Holy Templars. 200% holy VS 275% holy. I feel the "compensation" for the lower proc rate and damage is more then made up with the guardian change and his very high damage output. Couple this with a cooldown trinket that amplifies our damage. We would be sitting perfect for the tier even without Divine Purpose usage. Perhaps It would pull ahead on heavy aoe "nazgrim" but SW has always been reliable sustained that and adds are prolly going to melt faster then fucking lightning balls with all these cleave cloak procs n shit flowing around midtier.

---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 02:20 AM ----------

I'll give them a couple more weeks <not only because they are actively changing tier sets but because I'm moving> but soon we should start heading out in force that 150% holy damage doesn't compare to a 275% holy damage attack when it has a 30% mod and significantly higher proc rate. I doubt you need to see logs or sims to know which one is better.

If we in any way/shape/form see DS does 75% more damage we can call this patch game <unless we get more free buffs / survivability those are nice> I'd say they could just buff TV baseline to compensate but then it creates a bigger problem where TV is worth more and DS not generating Holy power makes you take longer to TV and thus end up DPS neutral rather then gain.

Perhaps keep the 50% and add Instead of just not consuming HP it adds 1 charge of holy power? That would keep our rotation smooth especially with procs DURING cooldowns. aka one of the most important times DS could proc make it a no brainer AND an exciting bonus. Esentially in this place you would put an ability that is about 90% of a TV hit in place of a weak filler like CS and Exo.

It would ALSO make the Divine Purpose play a hundred fold more exciting. Not ONLY would your DS and DPS proc off eachother if you chain proc you will be refilling your holy power bar and can keep the cycle going until your streak ends. That would be EXTREMELY exciting as fuck to me personally and make me totally hyped to obtain this bonus for opportunities like that.

So maybe thats the solution afterall? Bug GC on twitter for DS to give us a charge of HP so it doesn't end up being clunky and out of place in the rotation and the cooldown rotation because in the current form it's not exciting. I think we could change their tune with this honestly. It's very important that we get one of the two changes done. HP or 100% damage below 3 targets. HP is far more likely if we wanna be realistic.

[Alindra]

Having you hesitate to upgrade your gear is a TERRIBLE design there is literally no way to spin it.

But that's simply what set bonuses on tier gear does, by design. If you have LFR tier gear and a non-tier normal piece drops (or valor gear), you probably won't upgrade because the set bonuses is too good to lose. Same goes for normal geared player getting heroic non-tier.

Granted, this is a more extreme case because it's for a full ilvl tier.

[edit: Also granted, this is a BiS theorycraft thread...]

Frankly DS just needs more then 50% damage if this bonus is going to be a worthwhile button to press.

I'd go as far to say 100% damage instead of 50% but I feel like 75% would be a good starting point or dare I say the magic number.

Strangly enough Reiths solution is the best imo. It does 100% damage when it hits one target and drops to the 50% over 3. I however believe they are too lazy to balance to bonus this way despite it being the happy medium and best way to keep the bonus exciting and worthwhile while maintaining it as a DS proc bonus/ keeping aoe from being out of hand with the target limiter.

Another idea:

+50% damage, +50% damage spread among all targets hit.

So:
Targets - Bonus Damage
1 - 100%
2 - 75%
3 - 66.67%
...
10 - 55%

That gets rid of that nasty "breakpoint" going from (effectively) +200% dmg (100% * 2) to +150% (50% * 3).

[Solsacra]

Alright. let's assume for a moment that This CD trinket is affected by the GCD haste forumla. this makes things interesting.

Here we have our GoAK CD:
180/(1+0.39)= 129.5 Seconds. for the sake of argument we'll call it 129 seconds.
Here is the AW CD:
120/(1+0.39)= 86.3 Seconds. likewise, we'll call this 86 seconds.

Now if we we're to use these two CD's as they come off CD they would only actually come up together twice in roughly a 10 minute time frame, at the 258 second mark, and again at the 516 second mark. Sure you would squeeze out on additional CD lineup that if you we're not using this trinket. but is it really that impressive? Of course this under the assumption that we're using SW. so this begs the question.

Should AW, as it comes off of CD be delayed roughly 40 seconds to be lined up with GoaK? in doing so we would gain atleast five lineups in a 10 minute time frame. keep in mind we are losing our huge strength gains from trinkets this tier, so HoW's damage will suffer, so we will need to rely more on our guardians damage(and 12% strength buff) that was unchanged with the 40% CD reduction when the ptr first was implemented.

Food for thought, of course. but under this assumption, which i think is feesible we've already depricated the trinkets value by roughly 25% in doing so.

I would make and argument for (insert static secondary stat trinket here) from this we gain 26% additional Hand of Light damage, 14% constant haste and a 14% critical strike mod (nothing to scoff at as crit is our next best option after at most,36% haste.)

But ill leave that for later once this tiers gear has been itemized.

These trinkets are already starting to make me mad, as anaxie said, shit just keeps getting weirder with trinkets this expac.

[Revvo]

Yeah, that's something that worried me about these new trinkets, was CD stacking would be fucked because of the weird ass CDs we would get from the trinket. Not only with GoAK and wings, but with ES too.

[Reith]

Now if we we're to use these two CD's as they come off CD they would only actually come up together twice in roughly a 10 minute time frame, at the 258 second mark, and again at the 516 second mark. Sure you would squeeze out on additional CD lineup that if you we're not using this trinket. but is it really that impressive? Of course this under the assumption that we're using SW. so this begs the question.

Should AW, as it comes off of CD be delayed roughly 40 seconds to be lined up with GoaK? in doing so we would gain atleast five lineups in a 10 minute time frame. keep in mind we are losing our huge strength gains from trinkets this tier, so HoW's damage will suffer, so we will need to rely more on our guardians damage(and 12% strength buff) that was unchanged with the 40% CD reduction when the ptr first was implemented.

The situation you're describing has already been solved anyway: depends on the length of the fight. It doesn't affect the viability of the trinket at all. The only thing that changes is Execution Sentence/Light's Hammer timing.

[Solsacra]

nobody is worried about one of two abilities that deals barely 5% of your damage, that has little to no variance in sub/optimal usage in overall damage contribution. even now ES has wild fluctuation in optimal cast times regardless of its CD.

Fight length? ok, then. lets say optimal length is 9:30 minutes. this nets us four solid lineups, with one lost AW cycle. if CD stacking is your thing. with no interuptions and just smacking the boss with no adds or other mechanics to handle that would effect its uptime, or atleast where another setup isn't superior. Can't find that fight? i can't either.(atleast from what little has been tested, and rather detailed journal info.) i'm not trying to question is legitimacy, its a great trinket, but it just won't compete with other options in the grand scheme. unless there is a scenario This trinket is viable from a dps standpoint it will not be half as useful as you think it will be. outside of raid utility usage increases, which obviously we will need it for these occasions. at this time its just not the trinket we want it to be, no matter how you spin it.

[Reith]

nobody is worried about one of two abilities that deals barely 5% of your damage, that has little to no variance in sub/optimal usage in overall damage contribution. even now ES has wild fluctuation in optimal cast times regardless of its CD.

Fight length? ok, then. lets say optimal length is 9:30 minutes. this nets us four solid lineups, with one lost AW cycle. if CD stacking is your thing. with no interuptions and just smacking the boss with no adds or other mechanics to handle that would effect its uptime, or atleast where another setup isn't superior. Can't find that fight? i can't either.(atleast from what little has been tested, and rather detailed journal info.) i'm not trying to question is legitimacy, its a great trinket, but it just won't compete with other options in the grand scheme. unless there is a scenario This trinket is viable from a dps standpoint it will not be half as useful as you think it will be. outside of raid utility usage increases, which obviously we will need it for these occasions. at this time its just not the trinket we want it to be, no matter how you spin it.

Let's use base cooldowns as an example from the PTR. Let's say you're using Sanctified Wrath. If a fight lasts around 3:30 to 4:05, you're obviously going to want to delay your second Avenging Wrath to line up with your second Guardian. If a fight lasts around 4:30 to 6:00, you're going to want to delay your second Guardian to line up with your third Avenging Wrath... and so on, and so on.

[Lawkeeper]

Yo ppl,can anyone who has HC TF primordius trinket tell me the dmg difference compared with HC TF Spark pls?soz i if missed some earlier posts....

[anaxie]

Uhhhh wut. Solsa. GoaK comes off CD same time it does now except without delay. Basically CD Goak, Non CD Goak, CD Goak, Non CD repeat. what is this "delay" shit?

---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 12:14 PM ----------

Yo ppl,can anyone who has HC TF primordius trinket tell me the dmg difference compared with HC TF Spark pls?soz i if missed some earlier posts....

It's supposedly a ton extra on pull dps but I'm doing top 5 ranks easily with spark. Still went towards primo but the difference should be so bad you can't still hit 220K+ Dps.

---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 12:15 PM ----------

Yo ppl,can anyone who has HC TF primordius trinket tell me the dmg difference compared with HC TF Spark pls?soz i if missed some earlier posts....

It's supposedly a ton extra on pull dps but I'm doing top 5 ranks easily with spark. Still went towards primo but the difference should be so bad you can't still hit 220K+ Dps.if your gear is similar to mine.

For "testing" purposes lets assume everything is a 12 minute fight. I assume paragons and Garrosh Fight are going to take a fucking while and this is Malkoraks enrage time so yeah.

Along with the Reductions you CANNOT ignore the benefit of lower ds/dp/and Devotion aura. if they are spamming the fuck out of aoe damage this tier the trinket may be mandatory for those alone. Those 3 things combined to me is worth taking a 1-2k dps hit. But for now, we won't look at those trinkets. Firstly Challenge mode ilvls. What are they again? 463? so from 463 to 556 it goes from 17% to 39% reduction. BIS HTF should be 580 ilvl.

We should see atleast 7% MAYBE 8% from ilvl scaling upwards drastically so lets just say 8% reduction 47% CD reduction and maybe 12K strength proc on the RPPM system. Likely higher proc chance being 10 second duration but that remains to be seen. What are our times with that Solsa?

Appears I got 122 Goak and 82 for new AW cd. Is that correct?
We will use your normal mode numbers for now irregardless.

Though you can quickly see that it takes FOUR AW's and Guardians to gain one extra. Or maybe three if I'm wrong? That is pretty goddamn lengthy espeically when you could waste the ENTIRE CD reduction on things like. Garrosh dream phases, Lei Shen intermission downtime where CD's would come up... on their own during the downtime.

So from this I can fairly easily assume that unless this is a HARD 39%/47% TOTAL cd reduction not on a haste formula the HARD % trinkets that give us what? 14% to crit damage and two amazing ratings likely 15/16% at BIS ilvl. Are pretty fucking far ahead as far as sustained dps goes. just fromt he equip effect alone. The procs are the exact same and I highly doubt mechanics differ on those.

Howeve! If the first person to get this trinket of ANY class since there is aversion for every fucking player in the game reports TOTAL cd reduction.... You better fucking cheat and do underhanded tactics as the greediest motherfucker is your raid because if it is 47% HARD cd reduction on BOTH of those cooldowns AND DP? lol /DS / Devo you gain quite a few things. #1 Dps will skyrocket likely an extra 80-100K If not more. #2 You will be nearly invulnerable to death. DP uptime will be nearly 100% and DS with US and the trinket would be what. Bubble every minute n change? lol debuffs? and of course 1.5ish min Devo is nothing to sneeze at.

However! yes there is more... It very likely is based on the haste formula as Solsa said because.... now let me quote the trinket.

Equip: Increases the cooldown recovery rate of six of your major abilities by 39%. Effective for Strength-based damage roles only.

This is one of those trinkets that dps yield will be ENTIRELY based on what the supposed kill time is going to be. Would I still reccomend picking it up?

We still need to see how the crit stacking trinket and cleave one play out mechanics wise. So far we know we are going to be forced to DS at some point and the Xuen cloak is auto cleave. If shit procs fairly often and the Proc tooltip is misleading this could lead to an incredible single target AND aoe yield.

The only thing I'm SURE of at this point is the pure % rating equip trinkets are grossly overbudgeted <do items even have a budget in this game anymore lol?> To compete with those I'd think AW the trinket would need Hard non haste based CD reduction. Nevermind they mirrior eachother. These two trinkets are the most important things this tier. And have a chance to make ret the most obscenely overpowered melee spec in the entire game for single target DPS. Then again that could be towards every spec and anyone unfortunate enough not to obtain one will be a hinderance towards progression. Watch this be fucking random drop trinket loot lol.....

[Sunnydee]

i got 1 question...


how come this thread aint a sticky yet? i mean its in top 5 all the times anyways and most ppl tend to not see it and make threads about things that can easily be found/asked in here

[anaxie]

i got 1 question...


how come this thread aint a sticky yet? i mean its in top 5 all the times anyways and most ppl tend to not see it and make threads about things that can easily be found/asked in here

Because it stickies itself.

[Jaling]

Today I simmed my character and was given these scale factors: http://i.imgur.com/p82V4Nm.png. Putting these in AMR, it suggests I optimize by going full +160 str in red and prismatic slots and even +320 str for the JC bonuses. Thoughts on this? I was planning to go str/haste in red, haste in yellow and prismatic, and haste JC bonuses.