Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Maegor]

Just from running two sims with bis gear, both with 40% haste, one going heavy mastery and the other going heavy crit, the mastery simmed about 4k higher. Stat weights weren't surprising. Mastery had weights of H:6.92, C:6.32 and M:5.87 and simmed at 426k. Crit build had weights of H:6.56, M:6.43, C:5.38 and simmed at 422k.

So basically same story as before the extra 8 ilvls on TTT, highest sim will be a build that isn't full-blown mastery or crit, but rather some semblance of balance in between. I didn't do a haste to 50% build, but I'd assume it would sim ahead of the mastery as it always has.

[MBDTF]

OMG dat Libram

I'm comin 4 u >

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Hey guys, i'm Titan, bit new here but HI OTHER RETS!
Re: the new stat weights, is there anything definite as to whether the crit/mastery neck or bracers are better? Or simmed higher crit builds? Loving my 72% mastery but keen to know!

at an eventual point they will probably be better, if anything just 1 of the pieces will be better due to the absurd amounts of hit and expertise were going to have.

[Leolis]

Good thing I have thick skin, ask a question because you think "Hey what if?" knowing chances are that I am wrong even admitting so and then the elitism just POURS through. I mean you title this "t16 BIS & THEORYCRAFT" theorycraft, and I was just wondering about something and get crap for it. Yea, way to show the maturity.

[anaxie]

I'm comin 4 u >

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at an eventuial point they will probably be better, if anything just 1 of the pieces will be better due to the absurd amounts of hit and expertise were going to have.

What is that? Also I do smite priest DPS on mall since I solo adds. Always skip paragons and clear solo once a month. In a 70% alt raid. To me numbers matter little unless its two people in same parse

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

So new ilvl upgrades... anyone else feel like every other class is racing ahead of us now? even more than before? We all know ret doesn't scale very well so I asked Celestalon if a SoL buff to 35%/40% would be considered, no reply yet but seeing me and the other ret so far behind the other specs on Iron Jugg was seriously shocking... Before patch I'd easily get into top 6-7 on meters and now I (and our other ret) is almost bottom... On the other hand having 22k+ mastery really fucking rocks on aoe fights or aoe parts, almost silly how big the contrast is...

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What is that?

That is "Proraiders" BS that nobody should use.

[Khorium]

So new ilvl upgrades... anyone else feel like every other class is racing ahead of us now? even more than before? We all know ret doesn't scale very well so I asked Celestalon if a SoL buff to 35%/40% would be considered, no reply yet but seeing me and the other ret so far behind the other specs on Iron Jugg was seriously shocking... Before patch I'd easily get into top 6-7 on meters and now I (and our other ret) is almost bottom... On the other hand having 22k+ mastery really fucking rocks on aoe fights or aoe parts, almost silly how big the contrast is...

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That is "Proraiders" BS that nobody should use.

The other ret in my guild and I were actually discussing this same thing. It feels like we're much further behind now, with this iLevel jump. There are some fights that we still rock on (AoE for instance) but the single target has kind of dropped behind. I'm running a heavy mastery build, also, so that could be it (40% haste, 10% crit, 70% mastery).

[tonicsargeras]

Just remember that casters don't have amplify trinkets and those scale tremendously well.

The tier was balanced around 580 ilvl max and these extra levels are strictly a bonus so class balance doesn't matter at the very top end. Nobody sat Ret Paladins at 580 and nobody is going to sit a Ret Paladins at 588.

[Deleted]

Just remember that casters don't have amplify trinkets and those scale tremendously well.

The tier was balanced around 580 ilvl max and these extra levels are strictly a bonus so class balance doesn't matter at the very top end. Nobody sat Ret Paladins at 580 and nobody is going to sit a Ret Paladins at 588.

Casters don't have amp trinkets? Alert the presses! PBoI is a sham! Ret is top DPS after all!

PBoI is BiS for literally every caster class in the game - where on God's good earth did you get the hare-brained idea that casters don't use amp trinkets?

If you mean CDR then your point is taken, other than the fact that they really don't scale all that well (too strong at low iLvls, too weak at high) and the fact that we practically do negative damage outside of CDs to begin with.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Just remember that casters don't have amplify trinkets and those scale tremendously well.

The tier was balanced around 580 ilvl max and these extra levels are strictly a bonus so class balance doesn't matter at the very top end. Nobody sat Ret Paladins at 580 and nobody is going to sit a Ret Paladins at 588.

First of all, casters have amp trinkets but agility dpsers don't. That aside the game should be balanced properly regardless of gear which it wasn't before patch (poor shadowpriests), now after patch it's even more visible that some classes scale very well and some don't (at least by what I've seen) which is why I was wondering if anyone had the same observations. If this is something worth looking into for blizzard or not depends on people noticing it and asking for some changes, they've buffed SoL previously in MoP to compensate for bad ret scaling and it's (imo) the best solution now as well if the differences keep getting bigger in the next month or so.
Sure it's end of MoP (lol I joke, still 6months of this to go) but it's in the best interest of blizzard to have a game that's balanced...

[Titans]

There are some fights that we still rock on (AoE for instance) but the single target has kind of dropped behind. I'm running a heavy mastery build, also, so that could be it (40% haste, 10% crit, 70% mastery).

I hate to use anecdotal evidence (and it is probably a gear thing), but I haven't seen too horrible of a dps drop- true there will always be fights that are easier for us to top on (heroic 25 malk, sha, and spoils in particular) but even single target it isn't quite as drastic as sims make out. Take for instance the difference between 580 and 588 sims.

(I can't attach the link yet apparently, but essentially shows us simming as second lowest dps, only just above shadow priests, with the only thing changing at 588 is that we are now slightly ahead of frost dk 2h).

On a patchwerk fight like Iron Jug, a feral druid wont be using an advanced rotation, an enhance shammy might not get the best procs/burst, a fury's storm bolt might not crit, etc. All of this is nearly crippling if dps is tight. But ret has a relatively proc free rotation single target, in that it's not a significant dps loss if we dont get many t16 tier procs during single target burst. Heroic wf evil eye of galakras contributes to this as well, especially now that wings is on a 1.2(?) minute cooldown- it just means we can keep trucking on with big dps and big mastery damage even if other classes dont have the best procs or dot snapshotting. Will we top, if all gear is equal? of course not. But upper-middle of the pack is not unachievable, and I disagree that we're dropping lower!!!
*rant over*

[soamazzing]

The other ret in my guild and I were actually discussing this same thing. It feels like we're much further behind now, with this iLevel jump. There are some fights that we still rock on (AoE for instance) but the single target has kind of dropped behind. I'm running a heavy mastery build, also, so that could be it (40% haste, 10% crit, 70% mastery).

Some of our rets are falling behind Some are not :O jk jk I love you khorium <333333

[Relimash]

Some of our rets are falling behind Some are not :O jk jk I love you khorium <333333

i h8 u both

[Deleted]

I don't see a difference between 580 and 588. We were on a level with DKs in the lower 1/4 then and are on a level with DKs in the lower 1/4 now. Our aoe and our devo aura make us viable and it works fine for most bosses. A 5-10% buff for single target would be nice though.

[GeBBrY]

Anyone else seeing Haste going up now again in sims? Before the upgrades Haste was just ahead of Mastery and then Crit close behind. But for me in 582 gear and hc WF weap and trinkets. Haste seems to go up more again

Haste 6.80
Crit 6.03
MAstery 6.02

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Gebbry/simple

[anaxie]

tankoo never used clcRet so can't help you with the string. As for the tiers, yes, use the 4 set and ditch the warforged chest n helm. Hope you didn't upgrade them yet. IMO, if the tier chest + helm are 0/4 upgrades, don't upgrade them yet. Just use them. If they're 2/4 already, that's good. The 4 set will be a DPS/utility boost in almost every fight. Use your coins for the Galakras trinket and Thok's Tail Tip, if you're not using them for tank gear. Try to get even the LFR versions of those trinkets to replace your current trinkets.

And unless those glyphs are there for PvP, you'll want Inquisition (QoL) on every fight where you'll be cleaving adds, and Jeopardy/Mass Exorcism depending on the nature of the fight. These are all marginal though so you can still go with Glyph of HoS if you need to, or Divine Storm for shit like Spoils. I would just try to avoid Avenging Wrath n Divine Prot as Ret in SoO.

Anyone else seeing Haste going up now again in sims? Before the upgrades Haste was just ahead of Mastery and then Crit close behind. But for me in 582 gear and hc WF weap and trinkets. Haste seems to go up more again

Haste 6.80
Crit 6.03
MAstery 6.02

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Gebbry/simple

Except that's single target something immersius. Protectors. Norushen. Share. Galak. Shamans. Nazgrim. Mal. Spoils. Thok. Siege. Para? Lol. And garrosh aren't. Why thok? Kite CD recovery time + bats

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Experiences may vary but bosses are lfr face roll quality for guilds that have been done since November

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That's why I roll my eyes at all these sim rolls. Nothing changed with ret our gcds are still full

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Your post would be more relevant with a different variable than free super charged divine storm. But since we have it not playing to our strength is dumb

[Deleted]

I hate to use anecdotal evidence (and it is probably a gear thing), but I haven't seen too horrible of a dps drop- true there will always be fights that are easier for us to top on (heroic 25 malk, sha, and spoils in particular) but even single target it isn't quite as drastic as sims make out. Take for instance the difference between 580 and 588 sims.

(I can't attach the link yet apparently, but essentially shows us simming as second lowest dps, only just above shadow priests, with the only thing changing at 588 is that we are now slightly ahead of frost dk 2h).

On a patchwerk fight like Iron Jug, a feral druid wont be using an advanced rotation, an enhance shammy might not get the best procs/burst, a fury's storm bolt might not crit, etc. All of this is nearly crippling if dps is tight. But ret has a relatively proc free rotation single target, in that it's not a significant dps loss if we dont get many t16 tier procs during single target burst. Heroic wf evil eye of galakras contributes to this as well, especially now that wings is on a 1.2(?) minute cooldown- it just means we can keep trucking on with big dps and big mastery damage even if other classes dont have the best procs or dot snapshotting. Will we top, if all gear is equal? of course not. But upper-middle of the pack is not unachievable, and I disagree that we're dropping lower!!!
*rant over*

Are you sure you're doing it right? I know the difference for me between swimming in t16 procs or not during Wings is easily 200k DPS on the opener.

Anyhow, on any sort of fight with any sort of scumbaggable adds, we look pretty passable atm. Did 440k on Sha this week just from incidental cleave - didn't time CDs around adds, didn't use DS over TV when they were up, etc. Still passively scumbagged my way to 440k. Same story on Malkorok, Siegecrafter mine strat, etc. Any sort of incidental cleave makes us look like an upper-middle of the pack DPS.

But on pure single target? We suck. Really hard. And the longer the fight gets, the harder we suck, especially if we have any sort of downtime during CDs. I mean, you might be top 5 consistently in your own guild, but if that's the case I promise you it's because your other DPS are fucking something up and you're playing better than average.

[Titans]

But on pure single target? We suck. Really hard. And the longer the fight gets, the harder we suck, especially if we have any sort of downtime during CDs.

By "downtime on cd's" you mean the 1:18 between wings with heroic wf evil eye of galakras?
Scumbaggable add fights are great- last night was 422k siegecrafter, 440k nazgrim, 442k malkarok, etc. But Jugg was 395k, which (while not at the top) is still far from the bottom. Again, I usually despise using anecdotes>logs, though i'm optimistic that once bis upgrades are done and we start to get some numbers in, they won't say that we are bottom of the pack. What I meant before re: single target is that the difference between our "real" dps compared to sims isnt as nearly as wide as other classes, and on single target that becomes far clearer.

Take for example the bottom end of the spectrum. At 588 full bis, we currently sim 8k higher than spriests... a number we know in practice is much higher. Are we going to top jugg this tier at full bis if everyone is playing optimally? No. But we arent way down in the wastelands either.

[Deleted]

By "downtime on cd's" you mean the 1:18 between wings with heroic wf evil eye of galakras?
Scumbaggable add fights are great- last night was 422k siegecrafter, 440k nazgrim, 442k malkarok, etc. But Jugg was 395k, which (while not at the top) is still far from the bottom. Again, I usually despise using anecdotes>logs, though i'm optimistic that once bis upgrades are done and we start to get some numbers in, they won't say that we are bottom of the pack. What I meant before re: single target is that the difference between our "real" dps compared to sims isnt as nearly as wide as other classes, and on single target that becomes far clearer.

Take for example the bottom end of the spectrum. At 588 full bis, we currently sim 8k higher than spriests... a number we know in practice is much higher. Are we going to top jugg this tier at full bis if everyone is playing optimally? No. But we arent way down in the wastelands either.

When I say "downtime during CDs", I mean anything that could possibly cause you to lose out on, say, a HoW crit worth 1.5 mil damage in a single global (had that plenty of times at 75% mastery), like having to soak a mine on Juggernaut, sac'ing a tank, etc. If for any reason we have to move out of melee range or do something that isn't spamming HoW during Wings, it craps all over our damage to a much worse degree than other classes, since we're so much more dependent on said CDs.

My biggest gripe this tier, though, isn't so much our tuning (which I can live with since you can always just out-skill 90% of your raid :P ) as it's that stupid EEoG trinket. Always procs instantly on pull instead of playing nice and delaying itself until GoAK has stacked -_-

[Titans]

Ah but when there are disruptions to dps, also consider that most casters will lose out on an optimal rotation if they even have to move out of bad on the ground! Part of why spriests have been screwed over this tier, but also one of the reasons it maks catching up to higher simming specs not impossible.

Re: Trinket procs, have you tried the holy 4 set trick? I must confess, I only started using it last night, but basically just have the holy pally pvp 4 set equipped which grants you one holy power every time you use flash of light, and just do that until at 5, and swap back to dps set right before pull! Means that you get trinket procs two-3 gcds sooner, for what its worth :P

[MBDTF]

Ah but when there are disruptions to dps, also consider that most casters will lose out on an optimal rotation if they even have to move out of bad on the ground! Part of why spriests have been screwed over this tier, but also one of the reasons it maks catching up to higher simming specs not impossible.

Re: Trinket procs, have you tried the holy 4 set trick? I must confess, I only started using it last night, but basically just have the holy pally pvp 4 set equipped which grants you one holy power every time you use flash of light, and just do that until at 5, and swap back to dps set right before pull! Means that you get trinket procs two-3 gcds sooner, for what its worth :P

Depending on when the trinkets proc via this trick can actually decide if you can snapshot ES with trinkets proc again, that seems to be about the only downside via the trick otherwise 100% worth