Alliance Dalaran

[Deleted]

one orc that was treated as a slave well his masters crapped on him for fun.

How come when something bad happens to one Orc it always happened to all the Orcs - but when one Orc does something bad all the other Orcs are always innocent of it?

Your also telling me a story of drawing all the negative points of the horde like you think they deserve to be thought of as the bad guys, yet not addressing the good they have done too in fighting off the legion, the scourge and more besides, how they overcame there corruption, and was still pursued by the alliance as monsters.

The problem with the corruption is not the corruption itself but the behavior that comes from that corruption. Like: burning down Stormwind, slaughtering children. invading other people's lands etc. The Orcs may have gotten away from corruption but they have not gotten away from the behavior that comes with it. Durotar, Ashenvale and Stonetalon prove that. And that is what makes them evil in the eyes of the Alliance.

The horde that have sided with factions like the cenarion circle, earthen ring, the sha'tar, shattrath, dalaran, the argent crusade, all have worked with these factions for the right reasons, so why would the horde be made to feel like the bad guys for all the good they've done just because of the alliances age old grudge against them?

Because the behavior of the Horde towards the Alliance has not changed. They are still evil invaders that slaughter, pillage and burn everything in their path. It's like saying "I'm not punching the fat guy in this corner and the girl in that corner - so why do you make such a fuss when I come to your corner and punch you?"

[Myzou]

Dalaran in the game is IN THE PAST. As is all of Northrend.

Nothing will change until they update Northrend, at which point, I wouldn't doubt we'll see Dalaran relocate to the crater. (Hell, I wouldn't even count that out of sometime during Mists, and just leave Dalaran in Northrend IN THE PAST).

Dalaran was always an Alliance city, however, during the siege of Lordaeron, Teron Gorefiend and his death knights managed to get the Eye of Dalaran and decimate the city. A few months later, the survivors went to the city, erected the barrier, and began rebuilding. When the assault on the Lich King began, they decided to take to the offensive for revenge, and they allowed Horde into their walls to help against the assault on the Lich King, but only for the Lich King.

Jaina becoming leader just means they have new leadership. They're still Alliance. Chances are Aethas Sunreaver will be expelled from the Council of 6 and Dalaran as well - Sunreavers take part in the destruction of Theramore. In other words, he (or his men) helped attack one of their own. As such, I doubt they will allow him to remain.

[Rainbow Thunder]

hey since the horde straight up stole a powerful magical item from the blue dragonflight and used it as a weapon I could definitely see the kirin'tor turning on them for that


so it may not be just jaina waltzing in and going all "i'm your new leader everyone in dalaran has to hate the horde now"

[Dreknar20]

Well that would be cool for sure, I can't wait for the book, but the Question is will Dalaran still be in Northrend or back Hillsbrad Foothills. (Lordaeron)

it wont go back to Hillsbrad, its a Horde zone now, and having an Alliance city 2 feet away from a Horde capitol isnt exactly helping balance wise

---------- Post added 2012-07-23 at 08:32 AM ----------

Keep in mind that the Horde is also going to be rising up against its leader by the end this expansion, and Wrathion hints that the Horde and Alliance will need to find a way to peace very soon.
.

awww screw Wrathion, this war has barely started, hate to see it end so soon

---------- Post added 2012-07-23 at 08:34 AM ----------

The problem with the corruption is not the corruption itself but the behavior that comes from that corruption. Like: burning down Stormwind, slaughtering children. invading other people's lands etc. The Orcs may have gotten away from corruption but they have not gotten away from the behavior that comes with it. Durotar, Ashenvale and Stonetalon prove that. And that is what makes them evil in the eyes of the Alliance.
"

and do you know why the Horde consider the Alliance as evil?
They see the Alliance as spoiled people who take the best stuff for themselves and leave the Horde to scratch a living off rocks
You dont need demon blood to have a people wage war for the sake of gaining land and power. All races have and will continue to do that.
The demon blood made the orcs suffer from bloodlust, literally that they needed to spill blood and kill or else they suffer from withdrawls or whatever.
The Orcs were moments away from just killing each other before the Dark Portal opened.

[Deleted]

and do you know why the Horde consider the Alliance as evil?
They see the Alliance as spoiled people who take the best stuff for themselves and leave the Horde to scratch a living off rocks

What did ever take the alliance from the horde? Nothing. So where's the sense on that claim that the alliance left the horde scratching a living off rocks? Only the orcs live in a rocky barren, a rocky barren that still is rich in resources. Not only that, it was the orcish leader who chose that place for the orcs, having many other unclaimed terrain available. And now that the horde wants more resources, they want to take them from the already claimed ones, not from the unclaimed ones. Tell me when this starts making sense to you.

You dont need demon blood to have a people wage war for the sake of gaining land and power.

And that's what we call evil.

[yetgdhfgh]

Something I realized, and what really pisses me off with all this.

I have been against the whole Garrosh as warchief and all he does from the start, I've hated seeing what the horde has become under him and just long to see this chapter close. But for some reason, it feels like blizzard isn't so much giving my horde characters a choice, rather we've been put on a bus and told we need to do whatever we're told and agree with it, or we're be thrown off the bus.

By that I mean, the best times of lore for me was when the horde was under Thrall, when Jaina was the ruler of theramore, when dalaran opened in wrath and allowed horde into it, when we were fighting against the scourge and demons and shit, and it felt like this was something awesome we were all doing.

Now though, it kind of feels like this:

Devs "Garrosh is going to blow up theramore and you horde are responsible for it!"
Me "wtf? I don't agree with any of that, I don't want to blow it up, you forcing me into it "
Devs "You horde wanted Garrosh as warchief and now see the mistakes of that shortsightedness"
Me "NO, I DIDN'T want him as Warchief, I said it was a crap idea from the start"
Devs "And now Jaina will rule dalaran and kick all horde from it because of that shortsightedness!"
Me "Are you ****ing kidding?!, I didn't want any of this crap to happen, you forced me to follow along with it!"

See, this is how it feels, I don't want to blow up theramore, I don't like seeing the horde turn to freaking lord of the rings bad guys, I like dalaran, and yet now have to endure being thought of as a baddie because some lackluster developers can't make something more versatile for the developing lore.

Even though i understand what you are saying

but as a armchair general who loves reading and studying military strategy i have to say leaving theramore standing is military suicide

Everything as it stands regarding the war points to theramore

If theramore was allowed to stay it would continue funneling reinforcements from sw eventually they would finish the road and capture the southern barrens and smash through the great gate

Thunderbluff would be at the mercy of the alliance if Thunderbluff fell the alliance could link up with the nelfs of ashenvale and have orgrimmar surrounded it would spell doom for the orcish horde cause the forsaken and the belfs sure wont come to the rescue

With the destruction of theramore the alliance southern barrens campaign is lost with no friendly ports on the eastern side of kalimdor and no reinforcements the nelfs in ashenvale would be pushed out and eventually pushed out of kalimdor and the horde would control the whole continent

Now i dont agree that theramore shouldve been nuked i was hoping for a honourable battle to take the city for the horde but i guess just like the americans in ww2 they felt the casualties wouldve been too high so using a nuke would end it more quickly

At the end of the day you choose to be a Orc and as the old saying goes "Mine is to not to reason why, Mine is but to do and die"

[Deleted]

You have to look though at the horde's creation though. It formed because a shaman communed with a demon and though he regretted what he did, his apprentice continued what he started. The horde then entered Azeroth for 1 reason and 1 reason only: Genocide of all races of azeroth. They came to conquer the entire planet. They conquered stormwind. Almost conquered all of the eastern kingdoms.

But because of infighting, they were defeated. However, the alliance, showing mercy, chose to put the horde into interment camps to try and breed out their blood curse. Even they saw that the horde were only doing what was programmed into them by demons. Now there was a bad apple human, who raised Thrall in hopes of conquering Lordaeron with a new horde under his command. It backfired and the horde reformed with a new leader.

But even then, the new horde still had much of the same attitudes of the old horde. Evidence is when they went to Kalimdor and started founding Durotar. Durotar belonged to the quilboar. Rather than try to find a peaceful way to coexist with the quilboar, what did the orcs do? They slaughtered them and took their lands. The quilboar probably would of made an interesting horde race. Instead they chose to genocide the quilboar to seize all their lands. What's more, they also took in the forsaken, who were just as bad as the scourge.

Now though, we got Garrosh, she is much like the past horde warchiefs. He's declared that all of Kalimdor is to belong to the horde. And most orcs do follow him loyally. It is part of the story. It is part of their history. You can't sugar coat the horde's past. They are, from the time they were conceived in the original warcraft rts, a brutal savage race bent on conquest. Perhaps if they had not been freed so soon, that nature of theirs could of been bred out of them. But then that wouldn't produce any story for world of warcraft.

Blizzard is a story teller here. You don't really make a call on someone else's story, how it should play out, etc. Only time will tell, once Garrosh is defeated, what happens to the horde. But I think in this story, the alliance should do as the UN Did at the end of World War 2. But we, the readers of the story, have to wait till that chapter opens up.

That is pretty much retarded; sorry, don't mean to insult anyone, but that general idea about the merciful Alliance trying to breed the Horde to have their own moral standards is kinda the same logic rewind, and not so different from what the OLD Horde wanted - complete control over the other races with their mentality forced upon them.

...and saying we can't forget the past/history/whatever of the Horde, although it is now a NEW Horde, nothing like the OLD Horde (Garrosh is leaning towards the old standards, yes) -- that is basically like saying all Germans are Nazis, because hey, we can never forget what happened in the past!! That the newer generations have NOTHING to do with the shit that was going on in the past, is clearly nowhere in your brain/mentality/whatever.

So in all seriousness, your post is neither helpful nor correct ingame lore-wise. (The real-world references left aside, don't want to turn this in any way off-topic).

[Deleted]

but as a armchair general who loves reading and studying military strategy i have to say leaving theramore standing is military suicide

From the point of view of mere militar strategy, you are right. But in realpolitik there's more to strategy than militar considerations: Theramore is both the city where the last peace summit between horde and alliance took place. Theramore is also the city where the alliance leader more in favor of peace with the horde lives. Finally, Theramore itself is a symbol to the cooperation between horde and alliance.
Destroying Theramore is not simply crippling the supply lines of the Alliance, it's destroying the peace between horde and alliance that it symbolizes. It's sending the message to the alliance that you don't want any treaty of peace. That you want war until total victory, until the total destruction or unconditional surrender of the alliance. It is, in the end, sending the message that Garrosh truly wants to follow through with his motto of "Lok'tar ogar".

General Hawthorne was worried about neeless civilian suffering, because he knew that after the war, there would have to be peace between the factions. Garrosh is the complete opposite, because he is convinced that, after the war, there must be only one faction left.

Now i dont agree that theramore shouldve been nuked i was hoping for a honourable battle to take the city for the horde but i guess just like the americans in ww2 they felt the casualties wouldve been too high so using a nuke would end it more quickly

The real problem, as i deduce from the comic, is that Theramore has some kind of impregnable magical defense. The only way to destroy it would be using so much power that it would destroy the whole city with it.

[yetgdhfgh]

I understand what your saying and the destruction of theramore will have long reaching reprecussions politically
but garrosh is the sort of person who just doesnt care he only sees the world in black and white

funny you mention General Hawthorn playing through the horde campaign of the southern barrens he is made out to be a monster and i took great pleasure killing him
then i did it on my alliance toon and it turns out he agonised over the decision to destroy taurajo and makes you punish the looters made he seem like a good guy which he was

[Deleted]

Dalaran to the alliance! Kick thoose filthy orcs, trolls and undead outta there!

[Urti]

Dalaran to the alliance! Kick thoose filthy orcs, trolls and undead outta there!

We'll happily leave, just as soon as you give us the 50% of the city we defended to take with us.

[Frontenac]

We'll happily leave, just as soon as you give us the 50% of the city we defended to take with us.

When did the Horde defended Dalaran? Was it even under attack? And even if they did defended the city, how does that give them the right to own 50% of the city?

[Deleted]

When did the Horde defended Dalaran? Was it even under attack?

By the Blue Dragonflight.

[Matt0193]

We'll happily leave, just as soon as you give us the 50% of the city we defended to take with us.

As I recall, the only Horde that defended Dalaran specifically were Aethas Sun weaver himself (Along with Modera, while Rhonin fixed stuff) and maybe 1-2 other high elves that accompanied him (Wowpedia doesn't have numbers, and I havn't read the books/comics pertaining to it) there.

Granted, that would be all of it (Dalaran), but it's not like you helped to rebuild it after Archimonde's stuff.

[Florena]

Something I realized, and what really pisses me off with all this.

I have been against the whole Garrosh as warchief and all he does from the start, I've hated seeing what the horde has become under him and just long to see this chapter close. But for some reason, it feels like blizzard isn't so much giving my horde characters a choice, rather we've been put on a bus and told we need to do whatever we're told and agree with it, or we're be thrown off the bus.

By that I mean, the best times of lore for me was when the horde was under Thrall, when Jaina was the ruler of theramore, when dalaran opened in wrath and allowed horde into it, when we were fighting against the scourge and demons and shit, and it felt like this was something awesome we were all doing.

Now though, it kind of feels like this:

Devs "Garrosh is going to blow up theramore and you horde are responsible for it!"
Me "wtf? I don't agree with any of that, I don't want to blow it up, you forcing me into it "
Devs "You horde wanted Garrosh as warchief and now see the mistakes of that shortsightedness"
Me "NO, I DIDN'T want him as Warchief, I said it was a crap idea from the start"
Devs "And now Jaina will rule dalaran and kick all horde from it because of that shortsightedness!"
Me "Are you ****ing kidding?!, I didn't want any of this crap to happen, you forced me to follow along with it!"

See, this is how it feels, I don't want to blow up theramore, I don't like seeing the horde turn to freaking lord of the rings bad guys, I like dalaran, and yet now have to endure being thought of as a baddie because some lackluster developers can't make something more versatile for the developing lore.

And I don't like how the homeless were treated in Westfall. I don't like that Varian acted like an orc all through Wrath, nor that the alliance used prisoners as soldiers who burned Taurajo and killed civilians. I don't like that we lost an entire alliance kingdom to nuetrality, I don't like how the stonemasons were screwed over in vanilla. I don't like how Moira held Ironforge under martial law and was given a slap on the wrist and put on a council of 3 ruling all dwarves. You're not forced to do the scenario if you don't want to, and don't forget that the Horde is NOT united under Garrosh. Many do NOT like him, and that sentiment is likely to only grow throughout Mists.

This is NOT the first time the story has gone as it will whether players like it or not. And don't forget, this whole Dalaran thing is PURE SPECULATION. As much as I would love it I really doubt that Dalaran going to rejoin the alliance, especially if they're taking on the role of protectors of magic along with the blue flight.

[Dreknar20]

And that's what we call evil.

no thats called being a human, or being a person.

[RyanEX]

That is pretty much retarded; sorry, don't mean to insult anyone, but that general idea about the merciful Alliance trying to breed the Horde to have their own moral standards is kinda the same logic rewind, and not so different from what the OLD Horde wanted - complete control over the other races with their mentality forced upon them.

...and saying we can't forget the past/history/whatever of the Horde, although it is now a NEW Horde, nothing like the OLD Horde (Garrosh is leaning towards the old standards, yes) -- that is basically like saying all Germans are Nazis, because hey, we can never forget what happened in the past!! That the newer generations have NOTHING to do with the shit that was going on in the past, is clearly nowhere in your brain/mentality/whatever.

So in all seriousness, your post is neither helpful nor correct ingame lore-wise. (The real-world references left aside, don't want to turn this in any way off-topic).

This is a case where real world and game world don't really sync. The difference between the Germans and the orcs was that the Germans already had their own land, and didn't come from another world.

That being the case the Alliance WAS being merciful since the only other option, since the Portal had been shut down, was complete and utter eradication of the orcs. Which was what the Elves and Gilneas were pushing for. The Alliance was put in the untenable position of having to care for those that had, only days before wanted to kill them. Which is a far cry from what the old Horde wanted and even now, what Garrosh wants.

And in case you've forgotten, all Germans back then WERE treated as Nazis and Germany ended up getting split in half by the Russians and Americans.

[Dreknar20]

What did ever take the alliance from the horde? Nothing. So where's the sense on that claim that the alliance left the horde scratching a living off rocks? Only the orcs live in a rocky barren, a rocky barren that still is rich in resources. Not only that, it was the orcish leader who chose that place for the orcs, having many other unclaimed terrain available. And now that the horde wants more resources, they want to take them from the already claimed ones, not from the unclaimed ones. Tell me when this starts making sense to you.
.

Do you know anytbing about the lore?
The Horde was suffering from a very dangerous supply crisis before the war started in Cata.
Drought, earthquakes, and other crazy stuff made the Horde, specifically the Orcs of Durotar run very low on food, lumber, and water.
Should i also mention that the Horde is also pissed about the Alliance incrusions into their lands?

Where exactly is there "unclaimed" land that the Horde can lay claim to? A land that the Horde actually has acess to the supplies they need to survive.
Thrall chose Durotar because he did not to start a conflict with other races if say he settled in Azhara or Ashenvele.
He also chose Durotar as pennance for the Orcs past crimes (a reason i totall diagree with but whatever)

But sides have legitamate reasons for fighting this war. Stop trying to paint the other side as fighting for "retarded" reasons just because you dont play that side.

Tell me when this starts making sense to you

---------- Post added 2012-07-23 at 10:10 PM ----------

When did the Horde defended Dalaran? Was it even under attack? And even if they did defended the city, how does that give them the right to own 50% of the city?

um, i dont know, how bout the Horde's contribution against the Lich King, or against the servants of Malygos

---------- Post added 2012-07-23 at 10:13 PM ----------

I understand what your saying and the destruction of theramore will have long reaching reprecussions politically
but garrosh is the sort of person who just doesnt care he only sees the world in black and white

Garrosh knows nothing about politics, he told Thrall that himself.
Garrosh is a great warrior and military leader, but when it comes to diplomacy/negotiations and stuff like that, he despises it, similar to Varian

[Trassk]

When did the Horde defended Dalaran? Was it even under attack? And even if they did defended the city, how does that give them the right to own 50% of the city?

read the comic mini series 'Mage', where dalaran comes under attack from the blue dragonflight, and both horde and alliance defenders fight against them.

See, if you base all of the lore on just the game, your never going to get the full scope of it.

[Florena]

read the comic mini series 'Mage', where dalaran comes under attack from the blue dragonflight, and both horde and alliance defenders fight against them.

See, if you base all of the lore on just the game, your never going to get the full scope of it.

Not to mention Violet Hold.