[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Nairobi]

I think you are just underplaying the cloak, to be honest. The benefit of the cloak is so that you can take one of those nukes unmitigated, to save your cooldowns for other specific things that could/will happen in the fight. There is a reason why they had to make it a 2m ability instead of 1m, because the ability itself is that good. Even at 2m it's still very good.

I think this is a big candidate for differentiating 10 vs 25m damage ranges. 10H just doesnt get hit that hard in t15 to warrant needing the extra CD. Outside of HC DA, I barely use def CDs at all. Granted I overgear the content harshly, but still. The threat just isn't there in t15 10H.

Now, the big and obvious caveat is that we don't know what 10h t16 damage looks like yet. If it's 40-50% above what we're seeing in t15, then maybe I can get behind the tank cloak, since that'd be what I consider "threatening" damage ranges. But if it stays on par with what we have now, the threat just won't be there. Which then relegates us to choosing a cape that is simply a bail-out for a fuck-up, or a non-trivial AOE DPS proc.

why is ppl gonna prefer the dps cloak still? i mean lets face it. atm(5.3) you took the dps one due to haste. simple as that! in 5.4 you will hit hastecap fairly quick imao and therefore other stats will be better. having a cloak with a hidden "OH SHIT" button attached to it should be golden.. yeah sure the dmg proc on the dps one seems to be rather nice but if you will wipe due to you not doing an extra 500k dmg. then it prob wont be a kill eitherway

Well...to be fair, that's pretty damn obvious. I mean, there's no proc on the 5.3 capes, only base stats....so of course we're going to take the best itemized one. That's like saying "the only reason people take haste gear in 5.3 is because haste is good!". Well....duh

At any rate, we don't know the total proc values for DPS yet, but we know that they scale with AP and are AOE. And if we know anything about AP scaling procs, we know that they tend to border on OP for tanks (case in point, LMG). Now, considering that this proc is AOE and that there are a good many fights that involve multiple targets/adds, this proc is nothing to sneeze at. Especially in 10m where 1) tank damage matters more to group success, and 2) tank damage taken is lower, ergo not as threatening.

I'm not denegrading the AD proc, since it's clearly a powerful mechanic. I'm simply saying that from the POV of a 10H tank, the tank cape's proc is not as appealing as the DPS cape's proc.

We can get into the stat difference as well, but TBH we're going to be swimming in stats, so it's not really that much of a selling point to me (esp now that the tank itemization is less shitty).

[Promdates]

I think this is a big candidate for differentiating 10 vs 25m damage ranges.

Oh, I'm definitely saying that 25 tanks should take it. I could see 10 tanks taking it for the first few kills on a boss, just to "be safe" as it will give more breathing room for an oh shit moment. But I can totally see 10 and even 25 tanks taking the dps cloak on farm bosses or over geared content.

[Deleted]

I think you are just underplaying the cloak, to be honest. The benefit of the cloak is so that you can take one of those nukes unmitigated, to save your cooldowns for other specific things that could/will happen in the fight. There is a reason why they had to make it a 2m ability instead of 1m, because the ability itself is that good. Even at 2m it's still very good.

And what would happen that would need a extra CD, outside of those nukes?
Obviously gaming the proc to survive a lethal hit is a option, but normally you don't have to take such hits anyway. I guess it is nice for taking a 6th Talon Rake, but it isn't the intended use. Thus was the change on the ICD needed, because it is abusable. For the thing, that it was originally designed on the other side is underwhelming. Additionally, I doubt that the DPS gain from such Vengeance cheesing would be higher than from using the DPS cloak.

I don't know the T16 bosses yet, but in T15, there wasn't a single boss, where being able to take a extra stack would have been really beneficial.

[Drummerboy]

Different groups have different issues. I've had only few 1% wipes with more usually attributed to bad execution. We've definitely had more wipes due to tank deaths than due to hitting enrages.

[rhandric]

I'll be honest, last night's downing of DA was a wipe, we just happened to kill DA before the holy priest's spirit healer died Of course, having the tank cloak proc would've only saved me for one DA melee attack, since I died to getting some stacks of the ring debuff due to our ring soaker having been pulled away due to matter swap, and I had no cds up to be able to handle taking the debuff...

But at least it makes for a good story

[Drummerboy]

I don't know the T16 bosses yet, but in T15, there wasn't a single boss, where being able to take a extra stack would have been really beneficial.

Are there fights though where taking an extra stack could happen on accident? For example on JiKun the off-tank could end up taking an extra stack after a down draft because the tank with threat didn't get in range of JiKun on time or didn't come back from a nest fast enough.

[Promdates]

Are there fights though where taking an extra stack could happen on accident? For example on JiKun the off-tank could end up taking an extra stack after a down draft because the tank with threat didn't get in range of JiKun on time or didn't come back from a nest fast enough.

There's no point, because everyone plays perfectly and no one makes mistakes. A lot of people on these forums care about dps #1, since so many bosses in T15 don't hit for shit unless you have some high stacked debuff which you can totally ignore with a class cooldown. I'm looking forward to T16 and seeing who still takes the dps cloak/meta.

[Nairobi]

Are there fights though where taking an extra stack could happen on accident? For example on JiKun the off-tank could end up taking an extra stack after a down draft because the tank with threat didn't get in range of JiKun on time or didn't come back from a nest fast enough.

That's literally the only feasible example of such an event, and even that is likely not going to be fatal unless the OT was 1) low on HP, which is unlikely following a downdraft, or 2) had 3-5+ stacks already for some reason.

I mean, I guess you could say that you could get extra stacks of TP, Stare, or something from bad aggro, but those fights are all 1-tank anyway, so...yeah.

Basically if you're choosing your legendary based off of trying to prevent the once-in-a-blue-moon accidental stack on one fight in the instance, you might want to re-check the priorities of that decision.

[Deleted]

Are there fights though where taking an extra stack could happen on accident? For example on JiKun the off-tank could end up taking an extra stack after a down draft because the tank with threat didn't get in range of JiKun on time or didn't come back from a nest fast enough.

Getting a 3rd stack won't kill you if you have SotR up. If the tank isn't there yet, then you can also use a minor CD too, just to be sure. It isn't like you would need CDs for anything else on Ji-Kun, than the 2+ stacked TR.

[Nairobi]

There's no point, because everyone plays perfectly and no one makes mistakes. A lot of people on these forums care about dps #1, since so many bosses in T15 don't hit for shit unless you have some high stacked debuff which you can totally ignore with a class cooldown. I'm looking forward to T16 and seeing who still takes the dps cloak/meta.

Fiesty!

While I'm not a fan of "DPS > SURVIVAL", I will say that once you reach the level where survival is no longer an issue, what else is there to do besides add on DPS? I mean, utility for sure is important, but since we can't gear for more of that (logistcally, anyway), its just a natural progression.

That said, I don't think your comment was directed at me, but just watned to add that I also am welcoming t16 purely FOR the DPS, so that we can hopefully weed out the scumbagging and shake off some of the stigma that tanks have accrued this expansion about being the DPS-whores. I'd like to see clean/pure parses, where skill and reaction time are what gets you good rankings, not who can cheese the most or spam sit the hardest.

At any rate, the cape discussion is going to quickly devolve into a 10v25 I fear, but I just want to add that it's quite likely, as you've also noted, that we'll see the majority of 10H Prots taking the DPS cloak, while I'd suspect that most of the 25 tanks will favor the tank version.

[Deleted]

Are there fights though where taking an extra stack could happen on accident? For example on JiKun the off-tank could end up taking an extra stack after a down draft because the tank with threat didn't get in range of JiKun on time or didn't come back from a nest fast enough.

Thats what you have Sal'yin battle banner for.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, I guess you could say that you could get extra stacks of TP, Stare, or something from bad aggro, but those fights are all 1-tank anyway, so...yeah.

The issue I see with that in 10 man, is that the bosses hit like wet noodles, what if the extra stack does not kill you as you intended, and instead leaves you on 10% hp? Then you are in deep shit Can see that being a very likely scenario for someone trying to game the cloak proc in 10 man, that the attack that is going to kill you does not actually kill you. That would be pretty awkward to be honest. Try explaining that tank death to your raid leader.

[Promdates]

Just to point something out, the current outgoing damage of Corrosive Blast, the current tank swap mechanic for the first boss of Siege:

Value: 585000 to 615000 - (Assuming this is 25N)
Value: 877500 to 922500 - 10 Player (Heroic)
Value: 877500 to 922500 - 25 Player (Heroic)
Value: 321750 to 338250 - Looking For Raid
Value: 438750 to 461250 - (assuming this is 10N)

It also leaves a debuff for 45s that increases the next one (stacking) by:

Value: 300% (probably H)
Value: 100 - Looking For Raid
Value: 200 - (probably N)

I can easily see people screwing up the taunt and causing one of the two tanks to die because of it. My complaint is always "If there is a situation where you died, that the cloak could have saved you, then you made the wrong choice."

[Deleted]

Just to point something out, the current outgoing damage of Corrosive Blast, the current tank swap mechanic for the first boss of Siege:

Value: 585000 to 615000 - (Assuming this is 25N)
Value: 877500 to 922500 - 10 Player (Heroic)
Value: 877500 to 922500 - 25 Player (Heroic)
Value: 321750 to 338250 - Looking For Raid
Value: 438750 to 461250 - (assuming this is 10N)

It also leaves a debuff for 45s that increases the next one (stacking) by:

Value: 300% (probably H)
Value: 100 - Looking For Raid
Value: 200 - (probably N)

I can easily see people screwing up the taunt and causing one of the two tanks to die because of it. My complaint is always "If there is a situation where you died, that the cloak could have saved you, then you made the wrong choice."

If my coo-tank cant do a simple tank-swap properly, then we have way bigger issues, than which cloak should I choose...

[Deleted]

If my coo-tank cant do a simple tank-swap properly, then we have way bigger issues, than which cloak should I choose...

Yeah, I would rather be pissed at the tank that cant keep aggro over the tank that used a dps cloak.

The tank cloak gives some interesting solo tank options though.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I would rather be pissed at the tank that cant keep aggro over the tank that used a dps cloak.

With removable RF? Yeah, likely. We are also still getting that +200% threat buff after taunt.

[Sunnydee]

Just like to add from a post i saw at prot warriors section regarding the tanking meta:

The legendary meta is fucking broken OP. That thing is up all the time.

Obviously its PTR and hes a warrior, but since they said it will get buffed, me personally after reading this got curious if someone trieed it on ptr here for paladins?

[Nairobi]

Should be the same for all classes now that it no longer scales with haste. The proc is still RPPM, but they should be normalized to 2.67 for all classes, with no external contributors, so we should all see the ~65% uptime (+- RNG events).

[Sunnydee]

Gong-Lu, Strength of Xuen

nerfed it to 5 enemies, from 40% to 20% of ap but 0.12 higher RPPM

[Promdates]

Should be the same for all classes now that it no longer scales with haste. The proc is still RPPM, but they should be normalized to 2.67 for all classes, with no external contributors, so we should all see the ~65% uptime (+- RNG events).

Yup, this is what I said earlier. The gem got buffed pretty hard, and it's up a lot. Remember, it also only procs off when you take damage, but even if it's up when you're not tanking it's still 20% flat damage reduction from any form of damage incoming.

The 1.62 RPPM on the dps cloak looks like it's roughly every 37-38 seconds. If you have 100k veng should be somewhere around 130-140k ap roughly right? So that's 140k*.2= 28k, or roughly 280k damage over 3 seconds, that about right? So without any vengeance, it's roughly 80k damage over 3 seconds at 40k ap.

[Nairobi]

So, slightly less damage than the LMG for ST (albeit your V levels above are a bit low methinks, but perhaps that is more in line with what we'll see after all these changes), but it sounds like the damage is NOT meteored, so that's a linear gain for 2-5 enemies.

Meaning on fights like Garrosh, you can pull ~1.3mil damage over 3 sec when adds are stacked up.