[5.4] Affliction Warlock and Encounter Specific Guides

[Kalmah]

On single target, the two stats are always close. On multi targets you spend a lot of globals either soul swapping or reapplying dots. This doesn't affect haste. Plus, our MG uptime goes very low. Guess what that leaves us with as preferred stat?

Your turn.

Soul swapping and reapplying dots are both affected by haste. Haste lowers the GCD, which leads to more time for MG. Also, dots benefit linearly from haste. The only benefit you get from haste plateaus is saved GCDs because dots are a bit longer duration.

Edit: Last time I tried to simcraft multi-target fights, it didn't seem to have a default list that didn't involve seed of corruption spam, which obviously benefits more from haste than mastery. Has anyone actually tried to sim a 3-4 target multi-dot fight like protectors ?

[Wildcherry]

Everything what the others just said. More haste = more nightfall procs = higher haunt uptime = MORE DOT DAMAGE!

[Bonkura]

I wanted to cry. Then I realized you're the ones who suffer.

[FurtyIRL]

I wanted to cry. Then I realized you're the ones who suffer.

It kind of hurts your credibility when you criticize others for their lack of empirical data, then immediately follow up with sweeping generalizations that offer nothing in the way of verification yourself.

Without digging myself the same hole I tend to prefer the higher haste setup, given I can maintain around ~15k mastery while still reaching the 18k mark for haste. There are only a few fights of real consequence and challenge and they are all pretty much straight single target. With regards to parsing, the only fights that actually matter (in my opinion) are light cleave/single target, situations where I would also favor my aforementioned setup.

[Bonkura]

Don't need any credibility to understand that lowered GCD's and faster ticking dots can't compete with Mastery for multi target damage. That's called common sense. And it's not like Wildcherry deserved any more elaborated explanation after that ignorant post either way.

[Alarinth]

Just a quick reminder to keep this civil guys. I get that there's a strong opinion for voicing your belief in terms of stat weights, but please refrain from degrading anybody who disagrees with you. Nothing is gained by polluting this thread with toxic attitude.

[Kalmah]

Don't need any credibility to understand that lowered GCD's and faster ticking dots can't compete with Mastery for multi target damage. That's called common sense.

Appeal to common sense, seriously?

On what is that common sense based? Please point me to any math or simulations that actually show that mastery > haste for multi-target damage.

[Deleted]

I am kind of a "haste-believer" in this debate aswell. Although I have no real proof.

But, going for 0 mastery and 30k haste is probably not optimal either.

So how much should I aim for? I did a quick check in askmrrobot to see where I would land if I went for the 18.2k haste breakpoint. I landed at around 8.3k mastery. Would you guys go for this?
If I go for the 13.1k breakpoint I end up at around 10.5k mastery. Would this be a better mix in your eyes?

I know the best way is to just try it out.. But got no raids untill monday so I just thought I'd ask in here and see what you guys think.


Edit: If I would go for the 18k breakpoint I'd have to more or less sacrifice every socket bonus there is in my gear and gem all out haste. Doesn't sound like it's worth it to me.
But the question kind of stands anyway; How much mastery would you sacrifice in favor of haste? Or vice-versa.

[Bonkura]

Appeal to common sense, seriously?

On what is that common sense based? Please point me to any math or simulations that actually show that mastery > haste for multi-target damage.

It's what most top Warlocks been doing the entire expansion (except stubborn people stacking haste when it affected RPPM). Settle with a haste breakpoint that's usually lower than the amount of mastery. (Even the topic of breakpoints and its value has been a sensitive one.) All most of us have agreed on is that the two stats scale synergistically and that it's probably a good idea to grab new haste breakpoints as long as we don't sacrifice too much mastery.

If you suddenly wanna claim that haste is better, after the changes to RPPM and MG/DS, you're really the one who should prove its viability. I can accept that it might be better on single target, but on multiple targets it really doesn't make sense (to me).

[evertonbelmontt]

My character sims haste and mastery almost equal in single target light movement fights.

Picture council heroic on progression (what should matter to us). If you can't maintain the same amount of uptime that a single target movement fight sims, you are losing dps, right? In some intermissions you have 5 targets up at once, managing DoT's on all of them is optimal.

If you lose uptime from MG/DS, mastery increases in value a lot, contrary to haste. (Don't believe me? Try simming light movement and heavy movement)
At least this is what simcraft shows to me.

Long story short: as long as you don't stack mastery to the point of neglecting breakpoints (preferable go for the 9778 at least) mastery pulls ahead the less uptime you can have on targets.

[FurtyIRL]

My character sims haste and mastery almost equal in single target light movement fights.

Picture council heroic on progression (what should matter to us). If you can't maintain the same amount of uptime that a single target movement fight sims, you are losing dps, right? In some intermissions you have 5 targets up at once, managing DoT's on all of them is optimal.

If you lose uptime from MG/DS, mastery increases in value a lot, contrary to haste. (Don't believe me? Try simming light movement and heavy movement)
At least this is what simcraft shows to me.

Long story short: as long as you don't stack mastery to the point of neglecting breakpoints (preferable go for the 9778 at least) mastery pulls ahead the less uptime you can have on targets.

What is council heroic? :S There are only 3 fights on any consequence this tier and they are all almost exclusively single target.

[evertonbelmontt]

What is council heroic? :S There are only 3 fights on any consequence this tier and they are all almost exclusively single target.

Protectors. The name wasn't coming to me, so I throw this "council" because it was the best I could remember hahah
Anyway, it's the only fight that aff outshines destro looking at dps alone.

[Werst]

How difficult protectors is compared to klaxxi/garrosh/siegecrafter isn't even close (heroic all ofc). The other thing to consider is that many people tend to respec for different fights. Going 15K or 18K haste might have situational uses in affliction but it hurts destro. Demo can function at around 15k haste for the next shadowflame tick point but destro hits the GCD quite a bit at really high haste. Guess it depends what your raid/guild comp needs on a fight. Reforging isn't so bad but a full regem on a regular basis gets impractically expensive.

Plus there is just playstyle to consider. If you are able to react to a proc that much quicker or just get a spell off then the haste works for you. Some people just play better with certain setups. All things equal is one of those things that is nice in theory but seldom holds in practice.

[evertonbelmontt]

How difficult protectors is compared to klaxxi/garrosh/siegecrafter isn't even close (heroic all ofc). The other thing to consider is that many people tend to respec for different fights.
[...]
All things equal is one of those things that is nice in theory but seldom holds in practice.

That's my point. It doesn't matter because afflic only really outshines destro or demon at very specific situations where this min/max thing should not matter for it and the way you play is much more important. The only situation where afflic DPS min/max is needed is if you're struggling against protectors and you know it's because ilvl. (maybe not yours, but in general)

The last part of your statement is quite nice to end this argument.

[FurtyIRL]

That's my point. It doesn't matter because afflic only really outshines destro or demon at very specific situations where this min/max thing should not matter for it and the way you play is much more important. The only situation where afflic DPS min/max is needed is if you're struggling against protectors and you know it's because ilvl. (maybe not yours, but in general)

The last part of your statement is quite nice to end this argument.

I'm pretty sure if you care at all about killing heroic bosses you'll min/max where possible on any and every fight. As far as affliction "outshining destro" there are plenty of other fights where I would given affliction the edge.

[evertonbelmontt]

I'm pretty sure if you care at all about killing heroic bosses you'll min/max where possible on any and every fight. As far as affliction "outshining destro" there are plenty of other fights where I would given affliction the edge.

EDIT: checking it again, it seems afflic was the way to go spec until got hit by nerfbat.
Sorry, I made a mistake saying destro was more suitable for progression going for world first (at least, it seems so, according to wowprogress).

[Werst]

Technically demo was the spec to be when 5.4 launched but then the great slaughter of UVLS, imps, etc happened so that got delayed by 30-40ilvl's. Aff was the powerhouse especially early on when you had first week BBoY's but lost steam towards the end of progression when destro overtook it. Aff took nerfs on several occasions trying to tone down the top end effects of snapshotting (which trinkets like wush, BB, and UVLS exacerbated significantly). As of present day destro seems to be the more successful toolkit for the last few fights but they are certainly viable as aff...especially in 25m where "jobs" are a bit more flexible.

I would use aff for things where snare utility is also a major part...say you are kiting adds on heroic garrosh and a glyph'd soulburned coex can make your kite tank's life massively easier. Thok you'd think aff would win but for whatever reason that one seems just as solid as destro both on a personal/anecdotal level and the macro of a world of logs analysis. Keep in mind "progression" has had different specs with different relative strengths at different points in the timeline.

[Gorthan]

For my experience haste > mastery single target. Mastery > haste multitarget. Since i run destro as ms and aggly os and soo has few pure single target fights (where i use destro) mastery > haste looks more appealing

[gynshon]

I tried the 18.3k haste BP and it was pretty decent for single target. It seemed ok in practice for multi-target as well, however at my gear level it really hurts Destro so I decided to go back to the 13.7k breakpoint utilizing 4pc so Destro switches are an easy thing to manage.

[EvreliaGaming]

Protectors. The name wasn't coming to me, so I throw this "council" because it was the best I could remember hahah
Anyway, it's the only fight that aff outshines destro looking at dps alone.

Iron Juggernaut, Malkorok, Klaxxi etc say hi