I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Zeta333]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

Your more than welcome to experience all the content, Just becuase you pay doesnt mean you should get it handed to you, Just like in real life you need to earn shit. Bitching becuase you dont have the time or want to dedicate the time to achieveing certain goals shouldnt get it handed to you. You want to see the content go and earn it like the raiders do. If you cant then thats the breaks, there is plenty of game outside of raids to see. Casuals are more than welcome to raid but they shouldnt get it handed to them like blizzard is doing.

[mrwingtipshoes]

Casuals are not long-term customers so catering to that market is a bad move overall.

What evidence of that do you have? I know casual players who have been playing since vanilla and still play with out a break.

Why is it "financially sound"? Is losing 25% of your player base financially sound?

Provide proof that is anyway related to the topic at hand.

[Plutarch78]

I keep seeing posts about less people doing raids, that that part is becoming smaller within wow, that we have 3 versions of raids for those who want to do it easy-mode, etc etc etc. Lots of opinions.


This is what I propose:

No more heroic raids, one raid fits all but keep a learning to raid for those that just want to experience and learn, they can decide if they want to get into the true spirit of raiding or not.

Give the raid back to the raiders. The others can have their 5 mans - quests - farming - pets - pvp and what not.

Give raids back to the raiders. Get rid of heroic raids. The model that worked best raid wise was Burning Crusade model. You had no gimmicky heroic versions, they just got progressively difficult. Not just the same boss again with a new ability added.

Give back raiding to the raiders, there is tons of other stuff for casuals and non-raiders to do. Raiding is a culture of its own, it is just about lost. I would like to see it saved.

Please read this with an open mind geared to discussion. It really is time raiding went back to those that love it and all the goals/difficulty that should be associated with it and all that it should entail.

======================

EDIT 1* I am adding this to bottom, my definition of raiding and what that should entail.

Raiding should be (and used to be this at its best):

1. BC Model

2. 3-4 raids...increased difficulty, need to finish one to be able to get to the next

3. No heroic version, nothing re-hashed, can't stress this enough

4. the further you go the harder it should get, (last raid in tier) You can't gdo the last half of a dungeon...too bad...others will...you get better or you do not see it.

5. I heard this a million times "I would love to raid but can't"..not our fault. Do not ruin the essence of it. if you can't do it..you'll live but please don't drag others down with you.

6. There are those wanting challenge, logical challenges, there is those wanting shit handed to them. Raiding should be about the work, strategy, time invested, working together for a common goal - comraderie and brotherhood. The further you want to go the more you need. If you can't do that, do not raid.

(one other thing..LFR is not raiding, it is not. Quit saying it is. It is a tool to see content easily and more to the point, get loot easily. It has none of the characteristics of the above. Give people gear straight up, the same as raiders if you want..just hand it out...don't care...but leave the raiding to actual raiders)

Edit 2 **

Well this thread exploded.

To add a few things to my original post. I realize people like LFR, as some do not have the time to raid hardcore. I think most half-assed serious guilds/raiders do 2-3 nights a week. Not that bad. Many are not hard-core but are 'raiders". 2-3 evenings a week is not much but that is probably the norm now-a-days. This is not a fact, just going on by what I myself see and have noticed.

A point I would like to be made clear regarding Looking for Raid. One, it is not actually raiding. Typically it's group that is formed into a cesspool, the cesspool then zergs a boss. There is no team work, people are usually ignorant to others , sometimes in the most vile ways. It is not about seeing 'content", people can't even say that any more with a straight look on their face. LFR is so players can get loot the fastest, easiest way possible and in turn, have fooled themselves into believing LFR is 'raiding". You will see the worst of people in LFR, you will never ever see the best out of people. LFR is the opposite of raiding. So to be blunt, if you do LFR and have been arguing in this thread about that being your 'raid"...stop it. It is not raiding. Let's stop calling it raiding. Think of a new name. Maybe "looking-to get-loot-easy-while-being-a-dick -to-others". Too long maybe.

Going back to my original post, I did say BC was the pinnacle of raiding, I still stand by that. It was great, I loved it, others loved it (even casuals). In today's market, there can be made room for casuals at the start. They then will learn if raiding is for them and continue on..or not. Either you want to raid for real or you want to pretend. If you want to raid and think LFR is raiding, you are only fooling yourself.

Again, raiding is:

A group of people getting together to do something bigger than usual, it feels epic and rewarding.

Comraderie / brotherhood

Logistics / planning

Time invested

Community

Competition, with others or versus your own team. Investment of time and energy for epic rewards.

major teamwork

relationships


That is raiding.

Along with this post and my original post, hopefully ive been clear. Some will not like this at all, maybe because it affects their loot. For those people, I can only repeat, maybe raiding wasn't for you and maybe you aren't good for the raiding community in the long run.

This is nothing to do with special snowflakes, elitism or anything in that vein. This is my opinion, I am not God, but ive paid my money a long time now and my opinion is as valid as any of yours.

Thanks

This is the worst post I have ever read. THE worst. What you are proposing is bring back apartheid in WoW. Spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe even millions, for artwork, mob and boss encounters and design, audio, music, loot distribution and balancing, etc. just for a handful of guilds just like in 2004-2008. Fuck no! Even Blizzard said they're not going down that path anymore. Even Tigole said 40 man Naxx was overboard. No one QQed about nerfing raids despite popular opinion. Blizzard saw the numbers and asked themselves "Why the hell are we putting in all these resources for just a handful of players?" I hated the BC raiding model and I'm so glad Blizzard ditched it. And I frankly don't give a rats ass how many current subs are there. It doesn't affect how I feel when I play the game. I'm not saying I'm a fan of DS, but bring back aparthied when it comes to end-game raiding is not the solution.

[Deleted]

What you are proposing is bring back apartheid in WoW.

What an ignorant, ignorant claim. You should be ashamed of yourself. Are you seriously comparing a state mandated discrimination against a group of people due to the way they are born, to WoW? Blizzard has always given every single player exactly the same thing: Access to the game servers. Every character starts out exactly the same. What you do with your character, how much or little of the content do you, has always been up to you and you alone.

[Deleted]

I see your point of view but I don't agree with it. The game has evolved and has made it so people like me can actually see the raids before they become obsolete.
And I've been playing since early 2006 so it is not like i'm new here. with the previous design only 5% of the total playerbase got to see the content when it was current. That is very bad business and I'm glad they changed it.

---------- Post added 2012-09-14 at 09:10 AM ----------

What an ignorant, ignorant claim. You should be ashamed of yourself. Are you seriously comparing a state mandated discrimination against a group of people due to the way they are born, to WoW? Blizzard has always given every single player exactly the same thing: Access to the game servers. Every character starts out exactly the same. What you do with your character, how much or little of the content do you, has always been up to you and you alone.

Actually he's right.
you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. He has very valid points and while I don't agree with the analogy of apartheid, he's still right.

[Deleted]

You do realize that if raids where for "raiders" only, they would have to make a bunch of other content pushing patches back to once a year?

[Deleted]

Actually he's right.
you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. He has very valid points and while I don't agree with the analogy of apartheid, he's still right.

No he isn't. And you can read the arguments why in this very thread, there's no point rehashing them.

[Illintent420]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

Casuals should raid. But they shouldnt bitch when its to hard for them. Why is WoW so easy now? Because of casuals bitching content was hard. Content hasnt been hard since naxx40man but again every teir it gets easier and easier with buffs and what have you. All in all. Play and keep your mouth shut or reroll monopoly

[Deleted]

Your more than welcome to experience all the content, Just becuase you pay doesnt mean you should get it handed to you, Just like in real life you need to earn shit. Bitching becuase you dont have the time or want to dedicate the time to achieveing certain goals shouldnt get it handed to you. You want to see the content go and earn it like the raiders do. If you cant then thats the breaks, there is plenty of game outside of raids to see. Casuals are more than welcome to raid but they shouldnt get it handed to them like blizzard is doing.

WoW is not freaking real life man.
WoW is a GAME, and major resources go into creating raids, so I as a paying customer should be able to enjoy them.
If you want a challenge then do heroics! I don't so I do LFR and normal mode. SO in a way you ALREADY have what you want, so stop complaining.

---------- Post added 2012-09-14 at 09:17 AM ----------

No he isn't. And you can read the arguments why in this very thread, there's no point rehashing them.

you are more than welcome to close your eyes to reality.

[Deleted]

you are more than welcome to close your eyes to reality.

I don't think you understand how discussion works. You don't just march in, claim one side to be right, with zero evidence or argument, and then claim whoever doesn't agree with you must be delusional.

[Deleted]

I don't think you understand how discussion works. You don't just march in, claim one side to be right, with zero evidence or argument, and then claim whoever doesn't agree with you must be delusional.

I'm not saying you are delusional, I'm just saying, he's right because blizzard HAS stated that they can't devote resources for such a small part of their playerbase.

[Deleted]

I'm not saying you are delusional, I'm just saying, he's right because blizzard HAS stated that they can't devote resources for such a small part of their playerbase.

Stating that someone has "closed their eyes to reality" is calling them delusional, is it not? In any case, sure Blizzard has said this. However, Blizzard has also lost 25% of their player base while pursuing that strategy. It's not that Blizzard cannot devote the resource, it's that they will not, which is a serious mistake based on all the available evidence that we have now.

[Deleted]

Stating that someone has "closed their eyes to reality" is calling them delusional, is it not? In any case, sure Blizzard has said this. However, Blizzard has also lost 25% of their player base while pursuing that strategy. It's not that Blizzard cannot devote the resource, it's that they will not, which is a serious mistake based on all the available evidence that we have now.

Which one is the biggest number? 95% or 25%?

Because 5% was the people who actually got to endgame content before they changed their design.

Btw, no offense was intended, so I apologize if you felt that i was calling you delusional. English is not my native language.

[Deleted]

Stating that someone has "closed their eyes to reality" is calling them delusional, is it not? In any case, sure Blizzard has said this. However, Blizzard has also lost 25% of their player base while pursuing that strategy. It's not that Blizzard cannot devote the resource, it's that they will not, which is a serious mistake based on all the available evidence that we have now.

Not really, as I already proved earlier in the thread, most players don't raid.

Wows main draw must always have been low level questing.

Speaking of debate and how it works, as you've been proven wrong earlier on Zeo, it's time you admitted your error and conceded the point. IIRC from high school debating that's how it's supposed to work.

[Deleted]

Not really, as I already proved earlier in the thread, most players don't raid.

How is that relevant? Most people not raiding doesn't mean the game would be better off without raiding. There are many direct and indirect benefits to everyone that arose from the vanilla/TBC style raids being in the game. Your problem is that you have this naive, simplistic view of the player base structure. The reality of it is much more complex than you can fathom.

Speaking of debate and how it works, as you've been proven wrong earlier on Zeo, it's time you admitted your error and conceded the point. IIRC from high school debating that's how it's supposed to work.

Please quote where I've been "proven wrong". On the contrary I proved you wrong with an actually logically valid argument, something you've yet to manage to produce.

---------- Post added 2012-09-14 at 08:07 AM ----------

Because 5% was the people who actually got to endgame content before they changed their design.

There was content for the top 5% sure, there was also content for the remaining 95%. Just because the top 5% has something designed just for them doesn't mean that everyone else magically loses all their content. That was the strength of WoW originally, there was a huge variety of content that suited all play styles. Today there's one set of content which Blizzard is trying to stretch to cover everyone, which results in bland and boring content that doesn't really suit anyone.

[Deleted]

How is that relevant? Most people not raiding doesn't mean the game would be better off without raiding. There are many direct and indirect benefits to everyone that arose from the vanilla/TBC style raids being in the game. Your problem is that you have this naive, simplistic view of the player base structure. The reality of it is much more complex than you can fathom.

No, really. If most people don't raid, then raiding isn't a vital component of wows success. Raiding as a whole could go bye bye and wow would still have millions of subs. Hardcore raiding could go bye bye and wow would lose maybe 10,000 people.

Nowhere did I say this would improve the quality of the game or make it more fun, notice. TO refer to the OP, giving hardcore raiders their raids back makes no sense as wow is a mass market game. If out of every 100 people 60 of them quest 20 raid and 5 of that 20 hardcore raid, blizzard is simply better off spending it's budget on more quests and less raids.

Minus LFR raids cost a fortune and are seen by only a few people.

Please quote where I've been "proven wrong". On the contrary I proved you wrong with an actually logically valid argument, something you've yet to manage to produce.

I told you to go to wowprogress and posted a tankspot video. Still not done that? Figures, captain nitpick.

---------- Post added 2012-09-14 at 08:07 AM ----------

There was content for the top 5% sure, there was also content for the remaining 95%. Just because the top 5% has something designed just for them doesn't mean that everyone else magically loses all their content. That was the strength of WoW originally, there was a huge variety of content that suited all play styles. Today there's one set of content which Blizzard is trying to stretch to cover everyone, which results in bland and boring content that doesn't really suit anyone.

Indeed. The most important part as far as subs go of wow has always been it's questing and world experience (as that's what most players did and do.)

[Mikael123]

Amazing how hard the OP wants to remove game content for the majority of wow players just so he can have the raids for himself. So he can feel like a special snowflake. He tries to hide that desire behind all sort of arguments where he claims that WoW will become a better game by removing content. I really don't get it.

[Deleted]

No, really. If most people don't raid, then raiding isn't a vital component of wows success. Raiding as a whole could go bye bye and wow would still have millions of subs. Hardcore raiding could go bye bye and wow would lose maybe 10,000 people.

This is based on your simplistic and naive view of the players. The facts are against you: When there was content experienced by a minority group, the game had more subscribers than today and was growing fast. When they made game the most accessible it has ever been they lost 25% of their player base. These are the cold hard facts.

I told you to go to wowprogress and posted a tankspot video. Still not done that? Figures, captain nitpick.

And I keep telling you that's irrelevant. Wowprogress tells me how many people raid, not how many people care about raiding or what indirect benefits the existence of raids has to the whole player base. That's the whole point here.

The existence of raids in vanilla/TBC catalyzed the creation of highly organized guilds which served as the foundation of the realm communities and economies, benefitting everyone. They catalyzed theorycrafting, guide writing and founding of community forums like this one, benefitting everyone. They brought in highly skilled and committed players, who in turn pushed Blizzard to continually improve, benefitting everyone. They created an illusion of practically infinite amount of content and effort Blizzard was willing to go to in order to make sure even the top 1% of most skilled and dedicated didn't run out of things to do, making everyone feel like they would never run out of content.

[KCguy]

With TBC, there was plenty for everyone. If you sucked too much/didn't play enough to see BT or SWP, there was plenty of content before that to keep them busy...

Actually there wasn't though. It's a common misconception about BC. The reality was there wasn't much to do at all. Most people just sat around Shattrah and did PvP all day. The only reason people didn't care back then was because the majority of the subs were new to the game. Many people barely even knew what raiding was, so it was something that never interested anyone. Hence why Blizzard changed raiding. They looked at the numbers and saw how many people were actually raiding vs how many subs they had and it was incredibly lopsided. WoW is and will always be a PvE game first, which is why Blizzard has changed raiding over the years. Times have changed. BC raiding wouldn't work anymore.

[Deleted]

BC raiding wouldn't work anymore.

Perhaps, but it's the last known working model. I mean we know for a fact that the current model is not working now either by looking at the plummeting sub numbers.