[Destro] Immolate - Past, Present, and Cast Time

[Deleted]

It is sad to see so many conservative players

- It doesn't change anything for patchwerk DPS, no balance issue (we still have yet to see Destro topping meters at 90 anyway).
- It helps the spec in movement fights, where the spec is bad.
- It helps the spec in multitargets fights, where the spec is bad, even more if there is movement.

Even when you are not looking at performance, it would be a nice improvement in terms of fun, having to stand still 90% of the time for max DPS is lame.

Another "% of the DPS done while having to stand still" comparison, 2-targets sims, where Destro is more than 20k behind :
http://simulationcraft.org/505/Warlock_2-target.html

Demo (SB, SF) : 11% of the DPS
Destro (CB, Inci, Immo) : 69% of the DPS
How could Destro ever compete when there is movement ?

Similarily, in AoE situations : http://simulationcraft.org/505/Warlock_AoE.html

Demo (Harvest Life, everything else is instant) : 4% (!!) of the DPS, 16,7% of the time spent
Destro (Incinerate, Immolate) : 56.6% of the DPS, 70% of the time spent

In my opinion, this is one of the things that could be evaluated by Xelnath for 5.1 changes.

[Jessicka]

It's not so much conservatism (or maybe it is), I just find it annoying that people roll a caster then complain about having to cast, because fundamentally, that is what you're doing.

Sure, Immolate being instant might help very, very slightly on heavy movement fights, but in most cases of movement it wont make a blind bit of difference because you'll be using Fel Flame regardless because Immolate will already be there. If movement is that much of a problem, you're looking at the wrong place to fix it.

[Lucidious]

Personally I find it a welcome change. Especially from a pvp standpoint when a destro lock is supposed to be a "tanky" caster. In that kind of a situation one would assume that you would have to be able to at least put out some decent pressure even while being trained. Instant Immolate would allow this because we dont have alot of cc or escape mechanics so imo more than any caster we would need to rely on some form of instant casting to at least be competitive like affliction has always been. The difference then would be that affliction has to cast UA and haunt "both short casts" when creating space to pressure or burst wheras destro "if having instant immo" would have to cast backdrafted incinerates and chaos bolts "which is a freakish long but still an awesome cast that seems worth the cast time ". So I would really like to see this change myself because our setups for cast time is hard enough with warriors and other mellee up in our grille's all the time. So using that valuable time to get off a chaos bolt or a few incinerates would feel hard fought and rewarding wheras getting of an immolate with that time "just to try and utilize our offense toolkit which mellee seem to have no trouble doing while sticking to us" and then possibly getting your nuke interupted is disheartening. Having instant immolate is NOT overpowered but it IS a massive QOL change that im sure destro locks everywhere would give thier first born son's left nut to have. I sure would and I think it is one of the better suggestions i've read on any lock thread lately. It also makes so much sense that I wonder why it's not that way now.

[Phoenexis]

Again, why not opt for a different change in mobility instead of instant Immolate that won't provide THAT much benefit and is (in my opinion) another drastic step to changing the spec even more?

---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 12:40 PM ----------

Take instant immolate and you'll have the "yeah we gave you instant immolate so you're fine in terms of mobility" argument. And in the end it'll barely change anything. Destruction's problems was rarely ever tied to casting immolate, especially since Fel Flame's been introduced.

[whi]

It's weak, but you'll use it anyway.

Sure, some of us raided during vanilla wow too, even though top guilds took warlocks for the sole purpose of keeping coe up for the real dpsers - magi. Exaggerations aside, "doing" alone doesn't make something fun or fair.

As above, it wouldn't be the best either, since in all probability you'll want to be using Fel Flame instead since Immolate should already be there.

Yes! It won't give us spiritwalkers grace without cooldown! I doubt that's what the devs would like us to have anyways. I stand by my comment, that using fel flame in any amounts bigger than 'once in a blue moon' isn't possible - if You'd like to keep chain-casting afterwards that is.

It's not so much conservatism (or maybe it is), I just find it annoying that people roll a caster then complain about having to cast, because fundamentally, that is what you're doing.

Might I suggest not taking it all that personally then? Instants are still casts, just ones without Your castbar appearing. We won't suddenly swing our swords, or claws instead(without a dps loss!) - I promise!

You ask for Immolate to be instant so that u have more PvE mobility?

1. What are the odds you having to move in PvE exactly when immolate expired? 1/15?

2. If Immolate is still on when you have to move, 1-3 Fel Flames will refresh it to full anyway. Also, Fel Flame may cost a lot of mana to spam, but it generates embers quicker than Incinerate so it's not such a huge dps loss.

From a PvE perspective, instant Immo would change too little. Also, the less forgiving a spec is, the better for skilled players. And Destro already is the most forgiving of the warlock specs..

I'm not *asking* for instant immolate - as all my posts in this thread should suggest - I just think it's one of possible ways to add a bit of what destruction lost the most of during the cata->mop transition - free movement, as in, gcd's that you can spend moving without a dps loss. Once upon a time we had instant sf's, soulburn into instant sf, corruption, doom, lower cd on conflag, and a 1.5sec gcd - that gave us "a lot" of pve mobility. Currently we only have conflag, which in theory can be pooled, but in practice @ lvl90, mana seem'd just too limited - that's why I wouldn't count fel flame as a viable option aswell.

To answer Your points:
1) Pandemic lets you clip <50% duration, so the odds aren't that bad depending on how often it's needed, but, you're looking at it from a wrong perspective - smart players abuse every free gcd to move to a better position in anticipation of need-to-move-now moments - that's where 1 second of free movement every 15 seconds would help, even if it's just a litte bit.

2) Actually, you can switch incinerate and fel flame in live sims and see Your dps plummet by 1/3! I know I know, that doesn't come even close to telling the full story, but try morchok now, on live, and imagine loosing 40% of your secondary stats(difference between my profile and bis level 90 "preraid" gear).

It would change too little, so it's not worth doing even if there's indeed a problem..? I kinda don't get that logic! As a skilled player I can say that I don't really care about/compare myself to people that find any of the wow's specs hard/challenging, so I don't really see why is it better for me, that my spec of choice would be more pita to play. :<

[Deleted]

It would change too little, so it's not worth doing even if there's indeed a problem..? I kinda don't get that logic!

Again, my humble opinion on this:

Making Immolate instant would not make or break much. That being said, I'm fine with it having a cast time.

[Jessicka]

It would change too little, so it's not worth doing even if there's indeed a problem..? I kinda don't get that logic!

I'll refer you to this then:

Correct. Also flavor, experience differentiation (homogenization is something we have to fight everyday) and power deltas.

If it's not causing you any hardship, then the DoT having a cast time (and impact damage) just to be different is all the reason it needs. And if it's making the spec harder to master, then there's a bonus reason.

IF Destruction is having difficulty with movement in real encounters - and no one is really saying it is, just that at this time it's a theoretical issue - then you've all done a very good job of demonstrating that making Immolate instant is not the answer.

[whi]

Again, my humble opinion on this:

Sure thing, I just think that anything is better than nothing. Though, I gotta admit instant immolate would most likely feel awkward, but nothing You can't get used to - especially if it helps You do Your job, and has no practical downsides, as it seems(flavor, sameness feel too subjective to discuss imo).

If it's not causing you any hardship, then the DoT having a cast time (and impact damage) just to be different is all the reason it needs. And if it's making the spec harder to master, then there's a bonus reason.

IF Destruction is having difficulty with movement in real encounters - and no one is really saying it is, just that at this time it's a theoretical issue - then you've all done a very good job of demonstrating that making Immolate instant is not the answer.

Oh but it was already called a quality of life change by other posters. Is it more important than what you call flavor, or being different? Imo yes it is, and thus is worth changing.

No, it's not only a theoretical issue, it's very much practical, now, even during ds farm mobility just feels non-existant(assuming you don't spam fel flame as that won't be possible at 90 anyways, even if it is now and you'd like to have a choice in level 90 talents). We just don't know if it's supposed to be this way, or is it another "5.1 will fix it" so I for one am reluctant to call blizzard on it and thus asked for a confirmation in my first post here.


Edit: Just to add, imo better way of fixing the mobility problem would be through buffing our mana regen - it was supposed to be our energy, that we can spend when we like and don't lose dps as long as we don't cap neither on mana or embers, but that changed long ago. Our mana regen was buffed to compensate, but just barely to not feel too starved when chain-casting(although sims suggest we still are a bit, even in t14h bis gear) and at 90 it feels like You're fighting Your mana regen, trying to get as many spells as you can from it before throwing ember spenders due to the natural instinct to couple them with various buffs. We will get used to it and deal with it, but it would sure feel better if we could indeed throw a felflame or three without the fear of not having enough mana to chain-cast later on.

[Keldion]

Following up on Xelnath's two cents, I'd also like to point out that making Immolate instant will actually render it into a 1.0 second GCD spell due to Chaotic Energy. This means it no longer scales smoothly with haste up to 50%. If anything, I'm sure Xel and the Blizzard crew are trying to make haste thresholds less important in Wow.

[nightfalls]

It's a PvP change. In PvP not being able to get off immolates means having almost zero source, other than Fel Flame, of realistic ember generation. As has been discussed numerous times, destruction PvP relies 100% on chaos bolts for pressure, seeing as it cannot pressure in any other way whatsoever. If you are unable to get embers for chaos bolts, you are literally useless.

For PvE it's obvious that immolate being instant or casted has a very small difference that can easily be adjusted. However destruction does need a buff (according to sims) and buffing its sustained damage via making immolate instant would not break PvP as much as buffing its nukes (where it is already strong).

[Phoenexis]

It's a PvP change. In PvP not being able to get off immolates means having almost zero source, other than Fel Flame, of realistic ember generation. As has been discussed numerous times, destruction PvP relies 100% on chaos bolts for pressure, seeing as it cannot pressure in any other way whatsoever. If you are unable to get embers for chaos bolts, you are literally useless.

I'm sorry but no. Immolate is not what you're counting on for Burning Embers, it's just there for the extra damage in PvP. Right now if you can't get Immolate off then you just don't really care. Having a chance to proc an ember-bit on a critical strike is more or less meaningless. Having instant Immolate will barely change anything for Destruction in PvP, since its pros and cons lie in Chaos Bolt, which brings a lot to the table (advantages and consequences). Hence why, I'd much rather have a buff that will actually give the spec more mobility, instead of getting an instant cast DoT that doesn't take that much to cast. Reducing Chaos Bolt's cast time for example would be a much better option for "more mobility".

[Lucidious]

It's a PvP change. In PvP not being able to get off immolates means having almost zero source, other than Fel Flame, of realistic ember generation. As has been discussed numerous times, destruction PvP relies 100% on chaos bolts for pressure, seeing as it cannot pressure in any other way whatsoever. If you are unable to get embers for chaos bolts, you are literally useless.

For PvE it's obvious that immolate being instant or casted has a very small difference that can easily be adjusted. However destruction does need a buff (according to sims) and buffing its sustained damage via making immolate instant would not break PvP as much as buffing its nukes (where it is already strong).

This!!!

Immolate being instant does nothing to change pve other than add a minimum amount of dps "which the spec actually needs tbh based on sims". But having it as an instant would be a MASSIVE qol change for pvp. It does nothing to add burst to the pvp aspect of the spec as chaos bolt is where our burst comes from but being able to have another ember generating spell while under the heavy pressure we seem to always be in as well as alittle bit of extra damge while getting trucked on is worth it's weight in gold. Let alone the fact that we could have more pvp mobility as a result. That would be one of the biggest destro qol pvp changes that I could think of tbh. I actually have my fingers crossed that it happens.

[Phoenexis]

It has a chance to generate an ember-bit on critical strike. How can you rely on that to generate embers?

[nightfalls]

I'm sorry but no. Immolate is not what you're counting on for Burning Embers, it's just there for the extra damage in PvP.

1) Is this because it's not worth the effort to get out, or because it really does nothing? I'd imagine free embers are free. The damage is a bit laughable given that it can be dispelled without consequence.
2) In battlegrounds the more immolates, the more embers? Unless it's only the initial hit that procs them, if you can't tell I really don't play destruction.

[Phoenexis]

1) Is this because it's not worth the effort to get out, or because it really does nothing? I'd imagine free embers are free. The damage is a bit laughable given that it can be dispelled without consequence.
2) In battlegrounds the more immolates, the more embers? Unless it's only the initial hit that procs them, if you can't tell I really don't play destruction.

I'd say it's a little bit of all. The spell isn't worthless, but it's not what it used to be. I'm not going to do everything in my power to put in on someone, like during cataclysm or WotLK, but it's a "small" bonus that I won't say no to if I can pull it off. The damage is good, but nothing to worry about in PvP, while the ember generation is seriously lack luster.

However, for applying it on multiple targets in BGs, I have to admit that it's something that might need some thinking. I personally haven't tried that to be honest, seeing as PvP during these 2 weeks has just been about mindless burst. However I doubt it'll be a viable tactic seeing as it'd require insane ramp-up. Even then, chance to generate an ember-bit on critical strikes through a DoT that's running on about 5 opponents still doesn't seem plausible.
Besides, remember that Rain of Fire mostly fills out that role, and it doesn't require Immolate to generate embers.

[Lucidious]

I think it would be cool if they did away with immolates active portion and divided its damage between conflag and incinerate and it became a passive DOT the way the old burning embers worked. It would be easier to balance pvp burst around and since locks have always been a dot class having a brutal dot applied by our nukes would seem fitting. I know fire mages have something similar but they are not as evil and unworthy of such an ability .

[Slyver]

I'm sorry but no. Immolate is not what you're counting on for Burning Embers, it's just there for the extra damage in PvP. Right now if you can't get Immolate off then you just don't really care. Having a chance to proc an ember-bit on a critical strike is more or less meaningless. Having instant Immolate will barely change anything for Destruction in PvP, since its pros and cons lie in Chaos Bolt, which brings a lot to the table (advantages and consequences). Hence why, I'd much rather have a buff that will actually give the spec more mobility, instead of getting an instant cast DoT that doesn't take that much to cast. Reducing Chaos Bolt's cast time for example would be a much better option for "more mobility".

If it's a choice between changing immolate, or getting something else that lets destro have a chance in pvp, then absolutely, I'll take something else. I am only looking at immolate by itself; how a change would help out the spec in pvp, and comparing it to all other similar abilities that every single other ranged class has. A potential change to immolate; either giving it some benefit on a dispel, or making it instant, would make it worthwhile to cast in more pvp situations, something I think the spell itself desperately needs. Destro doesn't need "just one thing" to make it all better for pvp. It needs many things. This isn't one of them, but it could be. It's an obvious place for the reasons I, and others have listed previously.

Yes, it's a small thing regardless, but also the topic of this thread. This is not the "how to make destro viable in pvp thread", though if you make one, I'll be happy to comment in it. The problem with making that thread is, we already have one that ostensibly applies to all warlocks and is well read (the "Warlock CC and survivability" thread). Really it is all warlocks that need help, mostly for the same reasons (some specs are hurt more by the problems than others (Destro and Demo caster form!)). Fixing one might fix them all (assuming the fixes are to the class and not a spec).


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On topic, only the following times (that I have found, either in play or mathematically) show casting Immolate in pvp to be worth it (Model is for 20% crit and 15% haste, ~ what I have in 90 pvp epics):

• You are not trying to do damage to your target for the purposes of killing him, you don't have the embers to do any real damage and need to build some, you anticipate your target will be alive for a minimum of ~10s to build them, and you anticipate immolate will not be dispelled before those 10s are up.
• The above conditions apply, you are left alone to free cast for 10s, also do not have conflag, and don't want to burn your mana on fel flame.

Outside of those rare situations, it is an ember generating (burst and survivability building) and DPET loss to cast immolate in pvp over incinerate (with backdraft) or fel flame.

(Note: The time to death of your target vs. the ember generation ability and DPET of immolate is highly (way too) gear dependent, so the time listed will go down as gear improves.)

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In no way do I think this will "fix" destro, but again, fixing destro for pvp is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about how immolate is nearly useless in pvp, and punishing in pve, both because a warlock has very little useful mobile damage, and it is mechanically worse than every comparable ability that every single other ranged class has.


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@Mobile Damage: Due to fel flames mana cost, and no way to regenerate mana AND pool embers other than wanding, casting fel flame for destro is almost always a dps loss, even when moving (the only time I can think of is when you are both moving, and are going to have some downtime right after (boss goes underground before adds come out e.g.)).

Fel flames DPET is so low, and its mana cost so high, I can not comprehend how the math is not totally obvious to everyone. The sims show it. I can show the simple (ok, maybe not so simple, but simple for any statistician!) math that proves it. It's just an awful awful spell for pve in the current model (though it is pvp's best ember generator due to a distinct lack of ability to open casting windows).


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TL;DR

Bottom line: I just want a better reason to cast immolate in pvp. I should always want to cast it on a target. I should sometimes want to cast it on multiple targets (currently it requires the above conditions to hold true for every target you cast it on). If it was instant, I could do so, because i could do it while getting position. Doing it while standing there is less effective than doing something else almost all the time.

[Lethl]

Lets immolate stay as it does, but if you use conflag, on immolated targets, it will also put a 6 sec dot or something... That way, we will ha the old feeling destro had with both of those spells tied together... Belive there was something like that when beta cata. Still not the same, but atleast we will have some of the old feeling those spells had.

[Deleted]

What does it have to do with the topic ?
People are asking for more mobility and you want to add a constraint.